Whenever there's a movie with a female character, gay character, person of colour, etc, you always accuse it of being woke, SJW propaganda, pandering, politically correct, etc. Well you never explain it, so now's your chance. You always say movies like Alien are fine, but movies like The Last Jedi aren't. Well how are they different?
It depends how it's implemented. No one cares about a movie like Kill Bill where there is a female hero. What they care about is movies like the Ghostbusters remake or Ocean's 8 and they completely flipped the genders of every single character. Alien was an original story where Ripley was the main character from the beginning. Some people feel that Daisy Ridley's character in The Last Jedi is just an attempt to do a female version of Like Skywalker.
shareThe Ripley thing bored me because, as you say I could see them trying to just repeat the original story. I felt the same way about Creed which is just Rocky all over again but this time Stallone plays the part of Mickey. No female replacements there but it's a cheap gimmick all the same.
The Ocean's thing was also stupid as the original films sucked anyway and like Ghostbusters 2016 they thought Girl power would be more than enough to give them success.
So Daisy Ridley is an attempt to make a female Luke Skywalker, and that's why it's "bad".
But if it was an attempt to just make another make Luke Skywalker, wouldn't that be equally bad and lazy? So what's the SJW component here?
She's not a "female Luke Skywalker". She's a combination of the strengths of Luke, Han and Leia together, multiplied by one hundred, not even training required. She's the ultimate Ubër-Empowered-Mary-Sue.
shareShe is the Empress Reylene O'Palpatine !
Tell that to the people online who were saying it. I'm just stating the comments that I read.
shareOk, but if this was a male actor, with the combination of the strengths of Luke, Han and Leia together multiplied by 100, it would be ok? What is the SJW component here?
shareOk, but if this was a male actor, with the combination of the strengths of Luke, Han and Leia together multiplied by 100, it would be ok?
Chewbacca obviously
shareI'm not saying that I believe it. I'm saying that's what people were saying. I read comments online where people felt that way.
shareAre all Left Wingers tree hugging, patchouli stinking, hippies?
shareDamn....lol....don’t necessarily agree, but thats funny
Get some!
It was a question to illustrate the idiocy of OP's broad generalization. Not a statement of personal opinion.
I take my politics a-la-carte. Some of this, some of that.
Oh, I got it...funny is funny, and I liked your rhetorical question, I took it as tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek, good work! I like your style, get some!
Good times!
God no. You totally forgot about Hipsters.
shareI'm a left winger. They are just Democrats.
shareThey're political. How are these movies different? A few clues:
■ In woke movies, there's a biased distribution between positive and negative characters. Female or non-white character are usually positive, while white males are usually negative (either violent/psychopath or cuck/pathetic).
Make a little experiment: when you watch a movie or a series, check the gender/ethnic distribution in positive characters and compare it with the one in negative characters. In Aliens, for example, male and female characters were both quite balanced. In The Last Jedi, on the contrary, the "good guys" were mostly females or non-whites (or hispanics) while the First Order were 99.9% white males.
You can do the same in almost every modern movie/series. I started to watch Elementary first season last week, for example. Lots of "diversity", as usual... except when it came to the murderers, who were systematically white males (mostly blondes). What the odds, huh?. I don't even get why they needed Holmes as a consultant, the murderer was always the white guy!
■ In woke movies, you often can guess the role of the character knowing its race and gender. You have a young female white lead in an adventure or action movie? you know she's the archetypical "badass kick-ass" female clone. A black middle aged male lead? He's wise, charming, courageous, leader material. A blond athletic white guy? He's probably a psychopath. A middle aged white father? He's probably an abuser. And so on. In woke movies, people are almost entirely defined by their skin color, hair color and genitals.
Besides moral considerations, that makes those movies boring. Characters have become clones. The usual young-female-badass is the same character again and again and again (and again (and again)). In Aliens, Ripley's character is interesting, she feels real, a three-dimensional character. In The Last Jedi, Rey is a textbook modern Mary Sue.
■ In woke movies, characters often represent political statements. That makes them feel less real and breaks immersion, which is huge fun-killer when you watch a movie.
In Aliens, Ripley behaves like a woman. She's tough, but at the same time you can feel her pain as a mother when she knows she won't be able to meet her daughter anymore, and you can believe her relation with Newt (the little girl) and why she becomes so protective to the point of risking her life for her. In The Last Jedi, well, Rey doesn't look like a real human woman. She looks like a feminist super-empowerment statement.
I don’t share most of kukuxu views on most matters, but he makes some fair points....my intention is not necessarily to engage with you, kukuxu, but I’m a fair man and I’m always willing to have a discussion with anyone even though we might not share core political/social philosophies, provided its done in a civil manner....we have never engaged before, not that I can recall, but you make some interesting points above...for example, your first bullet point is interesting, I’ve found myself questioning why this is such...I’m a diverse individual with a multi-cultural ethnicity, so I don’t mind diversity, but what I don’t appreciate is what sometimes looks like pandering...that, sir, for lack of a better term, is lame and lazy, and does not further the discussion or discourse of inequality in any lasting or meaningful way., in my VERY humble opinion...
Normally don’t like to get into these issues online because it can open a can of worms I’m not always inclined or interested in discussing, I just thought I’d add my already depreciated two cents...
Good day, sir...
👍
shareLet me add a couple of things. I'll avoid politics, since it's legit you avoid those debates (I avoid them in real life since it's the quickest way to have conflicts with friends) and this is the general forum, after all.
When it comes to stories, I think the key element that tells apart between an honest story and propaganda, that's the coherence in the narrative universe. I'll explain it with a couple of examples.
You can create a narrative universe where woman are as strong as men, but that universe needs to be coherent. One example of that is the Isekai genre. That's an Anime genre where a human gets lost in another world, often an online RPG world. The most popular is probably Sword Art Online¹, though my absolute favorite (by far) is Konosuba², which I highly recommend. In those universes, physical attributes depend on your class (fighter, wizard, priest, and so) and level, gender being irrelevant. What matters is that characters behave accordingly, because they live in that universe. In those universes, it's not women the ones considered "weak" that need to be protected, but low level characters. The narrative is coherent with its own rules.
(CONT)
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¹ https://myanimelist.net/anime/11757/Sword_Art_Online
² https://myanimelist.net/anime/30831/Kono_Subarashii_Sekai_ni_Shukufuku_wo
(CONT)
The same way, you can create an universe where whites are stupid and thugs, and blacks are smart and civilized. But then you need to be coherent. In such universe, Africa would be the first world with Europe and US being third world. In that universe, whites would have migrated to black countries looking for work. In that universe, it would be whites the ones despised. As a writer, you're free to create your own universe, but you need to make it coherent with its own rules. Good scifi used to be like this¹.
The Last Jedi is a perfect example of incoherent shit. You have the First Order, which is portrayed as a pseudo-nazi state populated by completely stupid and worthless white guys... that someway surpassed technologically the Republic... after having lost the war. How the hell that happens? How a bunch of guys that are portrayed like completely useless, having lost the war, having almost no resources... can become the first technological power in that universe???
It doesn't make any sense at all. And that's the main clue to know you're not watching an honest story, but propaganda.
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¹ Jack Vance was THE master creating the most weird societies and making them completely coherent.
"You always say a movie with a female character..."
Then in your last sentence, you admit that they think movies like Alien are fine. Which is it?
Hello android....I’m in no way defending kukuxu, he can do that for himself, but the way I interpreted it was that the Ripley example was an honest and reasonable depiction, while the depictions for his other examples were not honest and legitimate ....just my interpretation, like I said, he can defend and better explain what he meant....I’ll add, just because Ripley and Rey share a common gender doesn’t make them alike, and I’m not assuming you’re suggesting that they are similar characters, but from what I can tell, Ripley and Rey are totally different in the way each come across on screen....
Cheers!
"while the depictions for his other examples were not honest and legitimate "
but why dont white men have to pass the antiSJW tests?
.
"just because Ripley and Rey share a common gender doesn’t make them alike"
no, but it means they must endure antiSJW torture that men dont have to
Hi chatterer....
I wish I had an answer, but I don’t....I’m not necessarily ‘white’, barely male, and possibly not even human....essentially, I’m screwed until I die...
Good times!
It's very condescending. Social justice is very important. Those who call themselves sjws don't seem concerned with Justice at all. They prioritize the most meaningless shit, and play right into the hands of the right wing. does anyone think that Amazon or any other company cares about black people or anyone else? It's simple marketing. They only care about money. Retweeting something is a very lazy way to be immunized from any scrutiny. it's another way Amazon and every other company doesn't have to pay federal tax or do anything for their workers.
I'm a left-wing populist who believes in the dictionary. Liberalism is freedom. Let the artist Express themselves anyway they want. if that artistic license includes having no women or no minorities or no homosexuals who gives a fuck?
People should become complaining that the movies are awful. The last 40 years have been so antithetical to art.
That's a simplification of what's happened in entertainment culture. People want group representation in artwork and it's not just conventional writing that's the trouble, it's the fact the movie producers won't greenlight enough screenplays about nonconformist or non-white characters. When there are characters in mainstream movies or tv shows, even when it fits into the overall storyline, anti-progressives complain about the writers being woke. It's as if they can't imagine that anyone else would want stories that speak to their own experience.
Firstly, only SJW’s ‘group’ people into races, genders and sexual orientations, anti-SJW’s see all people as free thinking individuals and don’t discriminate.
Secondly, SJW’s have infiltrated academia, the media and of course Hollywood, and are on a racist and sexist mission to demonise white males. Rian Johnson’s The Last Jedi was possibly the most disgusting - where every evil character was a white male, and every hero was any combination other than white and male.
Similarly with his Knives Out. The hero is a Mexican anchor baby who drains a white family of their wealth and we’re supposed to applaud her.
People naturally hate it becuase it’s endless woke dogma disguised as ‘entertainment’ patronisingly designed to make people hate the West so that neo-communists can take over.
Firstly, only SJW’s ‘group’ people into races, genders and sexual orientations, anti-SJW’s see all people as free thinking individuals and don’t discriminate.
While one can observe behavioural patterns, the difference is that the SJW will morally judge an individual based on their race/gender/orientation, assume they think the same way as their ‘group’ and treat them differently based on their immutable characteristics.
Your Chinese example is more one of culture than race.
I don't see such a big difference between culture and race. People need to feel part of a group, to have some roots. And those roots are often linked to its race. People will assume the values of the standard culture in their genetic group even if they're not raised in those values, because that gives them a sense of belonging.
I agree. But belonging is overrated.
shareFully agreed. People should assume values that have proven to bring wealth and progress. Sadly, only a minority does that.
shareThe rich get richer and all that. Being knowledgeable and what not is genetics. Being successful means you won the lottery of life. That's why everyone loves a underdog story, cause it's rare.
shareWell the Hong Kong and Chinese are the same race but have wildly different cultures and values
shareOkay, Snowflake, getting sensitive about which words I use. I only meant that outcasts and marginalized individuals want to see people like themselves in artwork. It's not strictly about group awareness. By your first sentence, you've also just spoken for a 'group.'
I am certain that there are radical liberal agendas in some mainstream films (e.g. New MCU and Doctor Who), but mainstream entertainment -especially TV series- also need to accept the fact that their general audience is not only white, beige, vanilla, Christian heterosexuals. All sorts are watching. Sentimental, conservative propaganda exists too.
I haven't seen Knives Out, but there is no problem with the main character's heritage. She is a citizen and her mother just found a legal loophole in the system. Her motives for revenge may be dubious, I don't know. Where is this anger when billion-dollar companies find legal loopholes to avoid taxes, or even use outsourced child labor instead of hiring local workers?
I can't speak for every person, but I'm not Antifa or a Marxist. I just want widely-available media that shows something different. Traditional stories and protagonists have been done.
In Knives Out the mother is an illegal immigrant, who should have joined the immigration queue like everyone else, we’re supposed to feel sorry for this criminal, and her daughter who ends up with all the wealth from a white family who are all portrayed a moral scum by the SJW writer-director Rian Johnson. Your deflection to the completely irrelevant topic of ‘billion-dollar companies’ doesn’t excuse Johnson’s disgusting and racist agenda.
The rest of your post is incoherent. If you think I’ve said something inaccurate then quote the relevant text and explain why you disagree.
Similarly with his Knives Out. The hero is a Mexican anchor baby who drains a white family of their wealth and we’re supposed to applaud her.
I'm just skimming the thread , just looking for the comments from the sane people like the OP , and avoiding the long paranoid deluded diatribes of the anti-SJW basement dwellers.
but that sentence right there kinda summs it up
as does on a racist and sexist mission to demonise white males
and make no mistake , im not agreeing with you, i dont mean it summs up ""woke"" . i mean it summs up the immature xenophobic women hating nature of the anti SJW
Meaningless drivel full of unearned moral grandstanding. Come back when you’ve got some substance and can actually challenge the ideas I have put forward.
shareI stopped reading after "I'm just skimming the thread"
I wonder what point you tried to make without actually reading.
its kind of absurd seeing a 120 lb woman 'wid attitude' throwing around 250 pound ufc types.
that's where i lose interest. its agenda over-driving narrative.
How is it any different than a 120 lb man without attitude throwing around 250 pound ufc types?
shareLOL. How often do you see that? Bruce Lee is the smallest male action star I can think of, and he was pretty ripped - in a way that no female action movie actor I can think of has come close to.
Of course, anything is possible in fiction. Bruce Lee defeated small armies, but that came off as kind of absurd too. Definitely had to suspend disbelief pretty seriously for those scenes.
Sandahl Bergman was super fit in Conan (82) and I totally believed she could kick some ass
I believe she had a background in
dance which is a very athletic and body shaping activity
if i saw that, i'd think it was silly too. but it generally doesn't.
although we should admit the spectacle of smaller folks beating up way larger folks isn't a rarity.
however, when its a small woman vs a large man, the incredulity factor expands exponentially.
i will say, though, that size isn't completely determinative - there was this guy who i used to
take face-offs against who was much smaller than me, and i COULD NOT beat the guy
his wrists & forearms, though not large, were incredibly strong.
I don't think it's the problem. Kick Ass has a small girl defeating thugs and nobody said it has an agenda. And Jet Li movies, and John Wick, etc. It depends on HOW they depicted the characters, not their weights.
shareI've not seem any of those "Mission Impossible" films , because ive grown out of action films that have no plot to speak of and are just a mindless series of stunts.
but im willing to bet Tom Cruise kicks a lot of ass right? and some of them are bigger guys than him? theyd have to be.
dont tell me..
"oh but you see Tom has had secret agent training and is well hard , but {insert hated female character} just walked into the role and hasnt been to ufc school so shes all woke and shit"
Movies, especially dramas, are boring unless they have an angle.
shareThe problem with so many of these is that the movies are so heavy handed about pushing an agenda. It's propaganda, and that's boring, whether I agree with the message or not. Allen Moore and Robert Heinlein had very different beliefs and they also often were making a point with many of their tales, but they did it in the context of compelling stories, characters that you could care about. I enjoy both of their work, even though I don't agree with all of it.
shareThat is just the difference between a good film and a bad one. Bad films take a message and create a story around it. Good films take a story and create a message within it.
share? Yes, that's my whole point. These movies are getting a negative reaction for their flaws, not because most of the fandoms are toxic bigots or whatever the "SJW" (OP used the word first) types are accusing them of.
shareAndroid543 sums it all up perfectly.
share