And you say there's cultural programming which is now seemingly trumping body programming, which has happened even before self awareness and should be apex and something one cannot overcome.
Humans have self-determination, which can trump biochemical programming, but sometimes not for the better. For instance, the human body isn't designed to consume certain amounts of drugs, alcohol, or disruptive substances, but people can
choose to program their body to become addicted to vices through repetition, even if it is harmful for you. The same thing applies to people who indulge in self-harm, or people who take on unhealthy habits, such as pill popping or over-eating to the point of obesity. Those are choices -- through cultural opportunities (and sometimes cultural programming (i.e., such as fat acceptance or promotion of prescription drugs)) to overcome one's innate biochemistry.
But given people are undergoing surgery to affect this means there is more to it scientifically. Something we need to explore and work on and determine what is causing this.
Some people are very pliable. Some people are convinced to get permanent tattoos, or permanent scarring because their friends convinced them it's cool. There's a whole subculture around the trans identity to lure people into self-multilation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOYKIpkueqM
Hence words like "effeminate", "tomboy" etc. existed before advent of the modern versions.
Effeminate and tomboy represent behaviours based on cultural upbringing and has nothing to do with someone's neurochemistry. The modern Left have co-opted these terms for the gender ideology debate.
This is similar to someone saying...
No, gender dysphoria is a made-up term by post-modernists, which is why any references to it before the IDC-11 update classify it as a mental disorder:
https://archive.is/7AUF6
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fani (375)
5 days ago
I think you're confused mate. You're not comparing things properly. What I'm saying is body programming is of highest priority. But if something is trumping that to the point people are considering body physiology altering surgery, then there's other brain chemistry at play here.
And this isn't self-determination or drugs/alcohol type because there's no body programming innate to self as gender and sex which is determined neo natal stages of development as you also say.
This means, there is something else able to trump the earliest developments of body physiology.
This is science realm now. Not some pseudo mumbo jumbo "modern left" co-opting. You're talking modern politics immaturely and incorrectly when these things such as "effeminate" and "tomboy" existed for 100s of years if not 1000s.
While modern politics is driven by imbeciles on the right mostly claiming cringey terms like "Woke" and "ultra left" etc. there are morons on the left as well. Basically, you're not properly understanding the issue nor the question but just parroting something.
The question is - what is there beyond cultural programming that is even stronger that is coming from within from people. This is a scientific question and beyond your scope imo.
There are 2 sexes and 2 genders but there are people acting against their gender and today taking action because of our medical advancements. The question is what is happening in the brain and what is the evolutionary need triggering those desires. The path seems like a dead end from propagation of species perspective but maybe not as well.
It is a very small %, granted, but it does seem to exist.
I don't think you're qualified now with your childish rants against "modern left" statements to address this.
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cyguration (3866)
4 days ago
"effeminate" and "tomboy" existed for 100s of years if not 1000s.
Yes, and they simply refer to someone's behaviour, not anything to do with physiology. A woman wearing flannel and jeans and playing softball with her brothers could be called a "tomboy", but it has nothing to do with her perception of gender.
The question is - what is there beyond cultural programming that is even stronger that is coming from within from people. This is a scientific question and beyond your scope imo.
Nothing. You're asking a question related to an ontological conundrum that only arises with conscious inculcation. You're ascribing to neurophsyiological processes something that has nothing to do with neurophysiological processes.
Why are you assuming their is some biochemical or neurophsyical mischaracterisation taking place when there is no evidence?
Someone having an identity crisis is a mental disorder spawned from perceptive stimuli. Ergo, this is a psychological problem, not a physiological one. This is because you're asking the wrong question: What you're meaning to ask is, why is someone letting perceptual influences alter how they psychologically feel about their somatic constitution?
(remember, someone
thinking they are the opposite gender has zero to do with their physiology, and only to do with how they cognitively process what their physiology is)
The question is what is happening in the brain and what is the evolutionary need triggering those desires.
None. There are people who believe they are animals because they consumed too much furry porn. There is nothing happening on an evolutionary basis other than delusion. This is an environmental stimuli leading them to believe this, which could lead to psychosomatic delusions. Furries have nothing to do with a biochemical conundrum, same thing with transgenderism. It is entirely mental.
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NN (2)
15 hours ago
Hi,
I read this discussion and cannot but ask: if it's exclusively cultural influence then how can it be that in Soviet Russia, where no one ever heard about transgenderness and where it was culturally unacceptable (as well as in modern Russia), there were quite many transpeople? They would never even start questioning their own gender as no one even knew it was possible to have gender identity opposite to your biological sex. Still, they existed in Soviet Russia, tried to be "normal" their whole life, but in the end as soon as they got an opportunity after the USSR collapsed, they transitioned (those who hadn't commited suicide, of course). In modern Russia it has also always been dangerous to be transgender, and they still exist.
And as long as you mention mental health, could you please name the psychiatric disease that you have in mind that causes transgenderness, and its symptoms?
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cyguration (3866)
11 hours ago
I read this discussion and cannot but ask: if it's exclusively cultural influence then how can it be that in Soviet Russia, where no one ever heard about transgenderness and where it was culturally unacceptable (as well as in modern Russia), there were quite many transpeople?
Soviet Russia didn't have a transgender phenomenon, it was likely some men who had been raped and then had a gender identity crisis, which happens often to men in prison or who are abused as kids. It creates confusion and can sometimes lead to pursuing transgender modifications:
https://mensvariety.com/prison-rape-men/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11501300/
In modern Russia it has also always been dangerous to be transgender, and they still exist.
Because of social contagion like Discord, which once again goes back to cultural influence:
https://pro-lgbt.ru/en/7981/
could you please name the psychiatric disease that you have in mind that causes transgenderness, and its symptoms?
It's not a disease -- you don't go outside and catch it if you don't dress properly. It's a social contagion, a mental disorder brought about typically via abuse, neglect, molestation, assault, or influence, as noted by various studies on the subject:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30706463/
It's also why it was labeled as a mental disorder (not a disease) by the WHO up to ICD-10.
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NN (2)
4 hours ago
What do you mean by "a transgender phenomenon"?
There were a lot of transgender people in Soviet Russia who had never been raped or abused. I personally knew some of them as I worked in a psychiatric clinic who issued permissions for transitioning before transgender transition was forbidden in Russia. It existed even though it was forbidden to talk about it. And in the 70s one of the first sex reassignment surgeries was performed:
https://www.rbth.com/society/2014/01/20/a_soviet_doctor_pioneered_the_first_sex_change_operation_33351.html
Neither psychiatric diseases nor disorders are contagious. But there is only one psychiatric disease that can make a person think that they want to change their sex, and it's schizophrenia. And it's easy for a psychiatrist to distinguish transgenderness from schizophrenia.
If it's caused by rape, child abuse and cultural influence, it means all people who experienced rape, child abuse and cultural influence should become transgender. Otherwise there must be something else, something in addition to rape and abuse. What is it exactly?
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cyguration (3866)
2 hours ago
There were a lot of transgender people in Soviet Russia who had never been raped or abused.
I'm going to need a citation for this.
I personally knew some of them as I worked in a psychiatric clinic who issued permissions for transitioning before transgender transition was forbidden in Russia.
The biggest problem with the LGBT community is dishonesty, and a lot of them like to lie about not being abused, like this woman here:
https://archive.is/Lbqbp#selection-371.0-371.644
The reality is that her entire sexual orientation was built on top of her abuse, but she repeatedly lied to herself about it because she never recovered from her trauma. If you personally knew them in a psychiatric clinic then they clearly suffered trauma, but were likely not honest about it.
But there is only one psychiatric disease that can make a person think that they want to change their sex, and it's schizophrenia.
You forgot about social hypnosis. Peer pressure works as a form of social-hypnosis, convincing people of something that isn't true:
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/09/01/why-are-so-many-teenage-girls-appearing-in-gender-clinics?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/whyaresomanyteenagegirlsappearingingenderclinicstransparenting
If it's caused by rape, child abuse and cultural influence, it means all people who experienced rape, child abuse and cultural influence should become transgender.
That's a false dichotomy. There are billions of variables that factor into people choosing to pursue that lifestyle.
there must be something else, something in addition to rape and abuse. What is it exactly?
Impetus. Typically people who choose it are unhappy with themselves because they've been convinced of it. But how did they become convinced that they are in the wrong body when their cognitive functionality was built on top of their physiological disposition?
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