MovieChat Forums > NN
NN (15)
Posts
Replies
We start going in circles.
I tried to explain everything simply so that you could understand. Unfortunately, it's obvious that you are incompetent in psychiatry to such a degree that you don't understand what I say and what you read on the internet. You explaining schizophrenia to me.... :) It could be even cute if you were a kid.
Anyway, it turns out that it's a waste of our time to continue this conversation.
Thank you for keeping this debate civilised without throwing poop at each other, which most people usually fail to do. I am grateful to you for giving me a chance to re-visit my knowledge and re-evaluate my beliefs, it's useful to do so as frequently as possible to stay objective and unbiased.
Good luck.
I wish you to be happy, healthy, and at peace.
My bad. I didn't know I was talking to a 5-year-old.
"they can display symptoms associated both with psychosis and schizophrenia" You read, and you don't understand what you are reading. Psychosis is not a separate disease.
"Trouble thinking clearly and logically".
1) Psychosis cannot have only one symptom.
2) You can't think logically about everything else except your gender identity. For example, you can't give a logical organized answer on your education, describe your daily routine and so on and so forth, and then suddenly become illogical on one particular topic. Am I explaining it simple enough for you to understand?
"Breaking down step-by-step the psychological pathogenesis that lead to them becoming cognitively detached from the functionality of their physiology"
First of all, it's general words, not a treatment plan.
Second, physiology does not define your gender identity.
Third, it's not a fresh idea. It's called conversion therapy, has been practiced all over the world, is still actively practiced in developing countries and is harmful and ineffective.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2667321522001561
https://www.nature.com/articles/s44220-023-00041-z
"If you're talking about intersex who do not have underdeveloped or no ovaries/fallopian tubes, they are simply males. No ovaries/fallopian tubes means they are not female and cannot live as women, since they do not have female organs"
No, I am talking about CAIS.
[Individuals with CAIS have a blind-ending vagina, absent ovaries, inguinal testes and no uterus] quote from here as you don't believe me:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7301881/
[People with androgen insensitivity syndrome look like females and self-identify as female, even though they have a Y chromosome] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10943/
There are other variations, actually, that demonstrate that sex and gender are more complicated than you think.
"but this is observed to be rare and sometimes happens because they are typically past the age of bearing children, and so their reproductive organs go into decline". - What does this obvious statement prove exactly?
"Yes it can" - incorrect.
It's either not psychosis, or the reason is not brainwashing. This is psychosis:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/understanding-psychosis
It is also incorrect to compare a 3-old-child's brain and the brain of a fully formed adult.
"If they don't think they are psychotic then that's why anti-psychotics don't work" - incorrect. It's not how antipsychotics work.
People experiencing a psychotic episode never know they are experiencing a psychotic episode.
Please name symptoms of psychosis in transgender individuals.
"They need therapy" - please describe your treatment plan for transgender individuals other than the one developed by health care professionals.
"since men do not have open wounds for genitalia" - correct, no one has open wounds for genitalia.
"Then they are not changing genders" - correct, as gender is what you are born with.
"They still have ovaries and a uterus" - incorrect.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK1429/#:~:text=Androgen%20insensitivity%20syndrome%20(AIS)%20is,with%20a%2046%2CXY%20karyotype.
"that require corrective treatments for the natal organs" - incorrect. They live as women their whole life despite being biologically male.
"Try here" - thank you, I checked the study out. No new information is provided here. Like I explained earlier, this is why you need to see different health professionals and be observed for 2 years before being diagnosed with transsexualism and prescribed with hormone therapy, etc. Doctors first need to exclude schizophrenia, trauma, homophobia, or misogyny as possible motivations, and make sure that the decision is weighted, thought over, all possible complications and consequences are known and understood.
"No, because those people aren't the ones who claim to be transgender" - their existence contradicts your following words "the genders are defined by their biological and physiological functionality".
"What percentage of women have to dilate?" I don't know the exact number of women who do it. I'm neither a gynecologist, nor a surgeon. However, women in menopause with vaginal atrophy and women after vaginectomy followed by vaginoplasty may need using vaginal dilators.
https://www.vuvatech.com/blogs/care/how-long-should-i-use-a-vaginal-dilator-for-menopause-a-complete-dilator-instruction-guide
"Brainwashing isn't psychosis" - thank you, Captain Obvious.
"unless it leads to psychosis. Not everyone who gets lured into the trans movement instantly becomes psychotic" - no, brainwashing cannot lead to psychosis. You are demonstrating complete incompetence again.
"Wanting to constantly mutilate yourself absolutely is a symptom of psychosis, though"
1. What are the rest symptoms? No disease can have only one symptom. Why antipsychotics don't help against psychosis?
2. Not all transgender people undergo any surgeries and are satisfied with hormone therapy and use of desired pronouns.
With every new statement you contradict your own previous statement.
"Then they aren't really transgender" - the other day you said no one is really transgender.
"since the genders are defined by their biological and physiological functionality" - I'll use again the simple example that you seem to understand: androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which female psychological gender is NOT defined by biological and physiological functionality. The existence of this syndrome demonstrates that your knowledge of biology, physiology and psychology is insufficient. "need serious psychological or psychiatric treatment" - name specific prescriptions. Show me that you know more about psychiatry and psychotherapy than psychiatrists and psychotherapists all over the world.
"Good. Many teens have no idea who they are and should not be on any HRT" - I totally agree. "sadly HRT is still hotly contested in the legislative branch in many regions for those under 18" - yes, it's absolutely not good and increases risks of misdiagnosis.
Except many do" - they are not transgender, they are misdiagnosed;
"in fact, 38% of detransitioners realised they transitioned out of unresolved trauma" - exactly, because detransitioners are not transgender, they are misdiagnosed people with unresolved traumas. 0% of new information. The link says "page not found", though.
"having to dilate and keep a gaping wound open that the body is trying to close" - neovagina is not a gaping wound. You demonstrate complete incompetence.
"Many cannot deal with that and thus, succumb to suicide" - prove that they commit suicide exclusively because of having to dilute their neovagina? What about cisgender women? Do they commit suicide after the procedure because they do not want to dilute?
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/patient-education/how-use-vaginal-dilator
"That is an extremely small subset of people suffering a genetic disorder. That is completely different from people who are not suffering from chromosomal abberrations but claim to be transgender' - saying "it's different" is not an argument. The existence of this syndrome contradicts your previous statements that biologically male individuals cannot be psychologically female. It demonstrates that you do not have enough knowledge about brain functioning and physiology to talk about these things.
To sum it up, during these days you demonstrated that you know nothing about psychiatry, psychology, psychotherapy, biology, physiology, and medicine. However, in some miraculous way you know better how to treat people than real doctors. The worst kind of ignorance is the one that thinks it already knows everything.
I won't jump to conclusions, but signs of conspiracy mindset are getting more and more prominent through your texts.
Just a little reminder: reading a couple of magazine articles and even a coupe of studies (yes, even if they are peer reviewed), does not make you an expert.
"It does; anyone willfully wanting to mutilate appendages is either psychotic or delusional. No two ways around that."
Yesterday or the day before yesterday you said:
"Brainwashing isn't psychosis, so anti-psychotics would be the wrong prescription". Remember?
"It's still a mutilation fetish" - again, what about those transgender people who never undergo any surgery at all?
"especially teenage girls who later change their minds and decide they might want to have kids" - I don't know the procedure in your country but normally surgeries and hormone therapy can be started only in adults of more than 18/21 y.o. depending on legislation. Before that only use of desired pronouns, comfortable clothes, and in some cases hormone blockers under surveillance of endocrinologists are allowed. In Russia no hormone blockers were allowed and the rules were stricter, you could do nothing before turning 18.
"Except, even if they change their minds they become permanently infertile". Transgender people do not change their mind. I already explained to you that cases of detransitioning are victims of misdiagnosis, and misdiagnosis happen in all the fields of medicine. If an oncological disease is mistaken for something else, it does not mean that oncology does not exist.
Transpeople who plan to have children in future, freeze their biomaterial.
"Natural selection (and the 41% of them with a propensity for suicide)" - even the title says that the the suicide attempts happen because of discrimination. You are surprising me more and more .
"No, you're talking about an extremely tiny percentage of people with a genetic endocrinological disorder. That's different from people choosing to mutilate their body". The other day you said: "You limbic system (which controls your sensory perception) is developed after your genitalia, ergo your cognitive functionality is literally built around your gonads"
The gonads in people with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are testes regardless of phenotype due to the influence of the Y chromosome.
The other day you said: "...no one who is born male has ever had ovaries, a uterus or a menstrual cycle. They psychologically do not know how it physiologically feels to be a woman, and vice versa". The existence of androgen insensitivity syndrome proves you wrong, the nature itself proves you wrong.
"Mostly under NDA" - smart move but I did not ask what you do exactly at work.
"Because those are people who have a fetish for body-mutilation" - it's confirmation bias that you are admitting yourself, it's a subjective judgement, which exists only in your head. Years and years of medical practice and research all over the world including Iran and Russia prejudiced against the LGBT+ community proves this statement absolutely wrong. You're literally saying: I will not watch interviews with those thousands of transgender people who live happily after gender transition because I personally find them crazy, but I will watch this one interview with a person who detransitioned and will think that she represents them all. It has nothing to do with scientific approach you claim you stick to.
What about those who decide to never undergo any surgeries or choose only top surgery, which is the majority of transpeople? (Surprise!)
"No amount of surgery will give a woman working testicles, or a man working ovaries." - they don't need it. They would be happy to be born with them but they are fully aware that it's impossible for them to have them, so they adapt and adjust to the circumstances. I wonder, when you see a person in a wheelchair, do you scream to them: You'll never be able to walk!
"They still have ovaries and a uterus." - people with androgen insensitivity syndrome do not have ovaries and a uterus but they are psychologically female.
"No, they do not." - says who??
"In fact, they live with mutilated genitals for the rest of their days, which constantly produce infections, fungus, and a never-ending smell of fecal matter" - once again: the majority of transpeople do not undergo any surgical procedures on their genitals, in most cases hormone therapy and top surgery is enough to feel comfortable and in harmony with themselves. Plus if vaginoplasty is chosen, it's more common to do it out of penile tissues. And ftm transpeople, who in rare cases choose to undergo phalloplasty or metoidioplasty, never face any fecal matter in their genitals. The word "bottom" in "bottom surgery" does not mean "ass" ;)
Moreover, "There have been some criticisms that intestinal vaginoplasty can lead to excess mucus in the vagina and mucus with an unpleasant smell. However, these side effects have not been consistently reported." https://www.verywellhealth.com/different-types-of-vaginoplasty-4171503#toc-peritoneal-vaginoplasty
And https://journals.lww.com/urol/fulltext/2018/10020/long_term_outcomes_of_sigmoid_vaginoplasty_in.12.aspx
"I noted they were based on epigenetic stimuli, not innate biological stimuli" - you are dismissing the epigenetic factor in embryo development because it proves your theory of social brainwashing wrong. Epigenetics is part of biology and influences genes, even though it does not change DNA- sequences. Confirmation bias.
Beside the cognitive distortion of confirmation bias, you constantly demonstrate another cognitive distortion, which is called overgeneralization. It's when a person comes to a general conclusion based on a few specific incidents and uses exceptions as proof.
Any surgery may have side effects. If you have your gallbladder removed laparoscopically, it is a very safe surgical procedure and minimally traumatic, and most people recover very soon, but you never know if you will fall into this little percentage of people, who have severe consequences, or not.
Now, using a screenshot with posts, which may turn out to be fake, is a very scientific approach...A transperson would never use the exact wording that transphobic people use against them. They would express regret that in their particular case they got side effects and would have to spend more time for recovery and more treatment. The side effects are treatable. You're making up stuff and I really don't understand what for. It does not look like you want to help these people. All you do is mock them.
Admit it at least to yourself.
Just out of curiosity, who are you by profession?
I already told you that there are cases when a person dealing with depression and anxiety gets confused and transitions, and then detransitions very soon. I worked in that clinic for about 3 years and there were 2 cases like this out of apprx. 300 per year of true transgender people (2 people during this time came to cancel the diagnosis and detransition out of 900). You are not telling me anything new, trust me. Why don't you watch an interview of someone who transitioned and never detransitioned for a change? Cause what you do here is a cognitive distortion called confirmation bias.
Yes, on hormones non-transgender people feel very bad while transgender people finally feel right and comfortable. Again nothing new.
And if you think that no one ever tried to treat transgender people with psychotherapy, you must be very naive.
You obviously have not read the studies I added. Unfortunately for you, I am not just a reader unlike you, I have seen real medical records and talked to real people, and real medical practice proves my point, not yours even in the countries prejudiced againt LGBT+ people. You're trying to convince someone who's been to space that the Earth is flat.
When the law banning transition in Russia was being discussed, the Ministry of Health of Russia and other Russian doctors were against it, but it was implemented nevertheless by people who know nothing about health and medical science. Just saying.
Now you are going to be very surprised but there are cisgender women who have never experienced periods but they are still psychologically women.
You are probably quoting the wrong part of my previous answer, otherwise your answer seems unrelated. I said that you can't call someone, who is hurt to talk about their trauma, dishonest. But you need empathy to understand it, and lack of empathy is a concerning symptom. So I really hope I'm wrong and you're just not native in English.
What you're talking about is why, first, a person goes to a physiotherapist who creates comfortable atmosphere for them to share all traumas and experience, then goes to a psychiatrist to exclude schizophrenia, depression, so on, and is observed for not less than 2 years, after which a date for the hearing is set, and not less than 4 doctors examine the person again and establish the diagnosis, after that under constant observation of endocrinologists, the person starts hormone therapy. Any moment they can contact the mental health doctors who issued the permission in case they start feeling any discomfort. Then not earlier than after 6 months of hormone therapy, but better not less than after a year, the surgery is scheduled.
I know that you'll never admit that you are wrong or change your mind due to confirmation bias and inability to collect enough data to make an objective conclusion. You can only rely on articles on the internet, and you will inevitably dismiss those abundant data that prove you wrong and use those scarce articles and interviews that prove you right. Plus you'll never find confidential medical records in public sources.
All I'm asking you is to exercise empathy and emotional intelligence.
I wish you to find peace and love towards the world and people, and live your life in harmony.
I don't like unanswered questions so, the teenagers from the article most probably do not think they are animals, just like people who participate in role games and pretend to be elves do not actually believe they are elves. They may even modify their ears but only because they find them pretty. Those people who genuinely believe they are elves (or dogs) most probably have schizophrenia but you need to examine a person and collect the anamnesis in order to establish the diagnosis, don't you? Schizophrenia manifests itself in disorganised thinking with impaired logic, change of personality, hallucinations, abnormal motor behavior, etc.
As soon as a person is diagnosed with this disease, they are prescribed with adequate treatment, normally it's antipsychotic medications. Now, do you really think no one ever tried to treat transgender people with antipsychotics (even though they didn't have any of the symptoms above)? Fortunately, these days in developed countries doctors put their patients' wellbeing first and, instead of harming healthy people with antipsychotics, they provide the only treatment that can really help them feel better.
Next, no hypnosis can change a person's personality. And gender identity is an integral part of your personality. Like I said before, people who wrongly make a decision to transition after some kind of trauma, regret it very soon and change everything back. Those who are really transgender never regret the transition and live their whole life like this.
Human brain is a complex organ and you simplify it all way too much. "...In the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain". https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19403051/
"XY individuals born with an androgen receptor mutation causing complete androgen insensitivity are phenotypically female, identify as female",
"...The existing empirical evidence makes it clear that there is a significant biological contribution to the development of an individual’s sexual identity and sexual orientation"(c)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/
EEG of male-to-female transgender people is similar to cis-gender females and identical to cis-gender females when recorded with closed eyes:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/47792941_EEG_Analysis_of_Male_to_Female_Transsexuals_Discriminant_Function_and_Source_Analysis
You know, it does not concern me that you are wrong. It's normal to be wrong. What I am really concerned about is that you lack empathy. I hope it is not because you have any mental health issues yourself. If you're healthy and intelligent, try to find kindness and mercy in your heart. Stop dehumanizing people even if, no, especially if you don't think they are not healthy enough to your taste. The fact that you call dishonest someone who is unwilling to share their trauma is really concerning and speaks for itself, unless English is not your native tongue. And the whole tone of your messages is as if trans people somehow offended you personally. I hope you find strength to deal with your own problems one day as well.
View all replies >