SPOILERS BELOW
For me, at some point, Walt crosses a line. At first, what he's doing seems to be justifiable as an aggregate of his terminal diagnosis, his desire to care for his family, and his need to take control of his life (which he was basically sleepwalking through in the pilot). He needs to learn to be assertive again, he needs to care for his family, and he needs this done *fast* so he can cheat death, even if only a little.
But then he crosses a line. For me, that line is Jane. He takes somebody who he personally doesn't like but who means something to his friend/ surrogate son Jesse, and he lets that person die because it's convenient for him. His actions become increasingly devastating, unjustifiable, and monstrous. More and more he acts out of selfishness or greed than any originally-perceived altruistic or family-oriented actions.
The real kicker, though, is when he finally confesses to Skyler that he did it all for himself. We see that Walt wasn't really in this for others, it was for himself. He rejected help from Hank and Marie, and Gretchen and Elliot. Why? Ego. (There's a LOT going on with Gretchen, Elliot, Walt, and Gray Matter, too...) He doesn't stop at his initial 747,000. Why? Greed. He doesn't sell out? Why? Both: "I'm in the Empire Business."
If evil is largely motivated by pride and selfishness and good is motivated by a desire to help others and put others' needs first, Walt starts out motivated by ego and allows that to dominate his world.
Also, his actions just get worse and worse. He starts off killing in self-defense or for protection, but it's not long before his killing for convenience, or because he has decided it's justice, or because he's hateful and spiteful. He acts carelessly towards others and gets them killed.
He's a great, complex character, and I don't think of him as pure evil or just a villain; and he has a great arc. But he is, or at some point becomes, a villain.
PS
Michael Corleone turned evil/villainous, too - in my opinion, anyway.
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Drooch (5333)
3 years ago
I appreciate the thoughtful response but I need more specifics of actions that Walt took that you would not have taken in the same situation.
You mentioned Jane, but what would you have done? If she didn’t die she would have sent you to prison. Would you have woken up that skank in order to spend the rest of your life incarcerated?
If evil is largely motivated by pride and selfishness and good is motivated by a desire to help others and put others' needs first, Walt starts out motivated by ego and allows that to dominate his world.
I don’t quite agree with this definition. I think you have a moral duty to help and improve yourself, but never to tread on others in the process. Helping others is a recommended part of helping yourself.
Can you name something that Michael Corleone did that you would not do in the same predicament?
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Ace_Spade (9349)
3 years ago
I would have pulled her upright, tilted her forward, and tried to get her to throw up instead of choke on vomit. I would have not committed murder-by-default. I'm not sure why you think he'd have gone to jail if she lived...? Walt's beef with Jane was that she was demanding Walt hand over Jesse's half of the money. Now, I think some of his anger was because he didn't want Jesse dead at the end of a syringe, but from the rest of the show, I think it's safe to say that a large part of Walt's motivation for hating on Jane and letting her die was that he didn't like that she pushed back against him. Walt hated not being the big man.
Now, after keeping Jane alive, I would have tried to have an intervention of sorts with Jane and Jesse and gotten them into rehab if it was within my power to do so, keep them both off the heroin. Oh, and I would have given Jesse his cut.
That's already after Walt's well down the rabbit hole. I would have taken the job at Gray Matter, quite frankly. I would have supplied for my family's needs and prepared for my demise by doing some of my best, most creative work in a lab to leave a legacy in chemistry that would have lasted beyond my early departure while setting up the fam with beaucoup bucks. That option was on the table, but Walt was too proud to take the gig. So Elliot and Gretchen are condescending? So what? You get everything you want. Ignore them. If you need the ego boost, get a press agent to make sure all of your successes aren't just attributed to Elliot and Gretchen. Spin it so the team is back together and you were the missing part.
I also would have gotten out multiple times when Walt didn't. Sell out and take your cut. Quit being an "empire builder" to serve your ego.
I don't think you need to hurt yourself or martyr yourself, but I think most or all evil in the world comes from selfishness and people putting their needs above the needs of others.
Michael's trickier because his family roots cause a lot of his problems.
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Ace_Spade (9349)
3 years ago
A lot of Michael's villainy, for me, is in what he does to Kay and his actual family.
It would have been harder for Michael to stay out of it because walking away would have likely resulted in his brothers dying. Well...dying sooner.
It's easier with Walt because he's the one who decides to cook meth (which, I wouldn't have done that either), whereas Michael is part of a crime family who gets attacked. Michael doing the hit in the restaurant was probably necessary to some extent. Nevertheless, he should have recognized that he was getting caught in the spiral and tried to disentangle his family and himself from that world. He might have had to walk away, but he should not have gotten involved.
Then there's his freezing Kay out. He's supposed to care about family, but he's cutting his children off from their mother? Fuggetaboutit.
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[deleted]
3 years ago
You're in my opinion a great writer. But I don't think you were right regarding Walt. He felt screwed by the world. Sodomites lower than him have taken more power, and he was going to die of a horrible illness above it. It's understandable that he would be angry. Who wouldn't be? Only those without pride. I felt sorry for him. He led
the cause of a man. A tired suffering man the world was unfair toward.
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Ace_Spade (9349)
3 years ago
Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate it.
I think Walt was dumped on quite a bit, but I do guess that he brought a lot of it on himself, or at least atrophied after Gray Matter. The events around his one-time company clearly changed the trajectory of his life. When we meet him in the pilot, sure, he's put upon.
I also don't want to give the impression I don't feel sorry for Walt or sympathize with him - I do that, too - but I also condemn his descent into evil and how he deals with the situation. The best course of action would have been to swallow his pride long enough to work for Gretchen and Elliot, collect the overstuffed paycheques they'd have no doubt used to assuage their consciences and help Walt's family. Then, if he's still sore about it all, use their labs to invent brilliant things, get a press agent, and leak it around that Walter White is - and always was - the real grey matter at Gray Matter. Make them Edison, make yourself Tesla.
The world was unfair to him, but he was also bitter (in my estimation), and regardless of how things shook down, it doesn't give him licence to ruin lives. His actions left chaos and horror in their wake. I can't condone or agree with pride and anger as justification for that. That's just selfish.
I get where you're coming from, though, and I understand why Walt is sympathetic. Vince Gilligan did a great job pushing Walt over the edge and making us root for him in that pilot episode alone. That bought a lot of goodwill, watching him take it from Skyler and Bogdan and then get emasculated by his brother-in-law. But then he's poisoning children and letting people choke to death, and I think Gilligan also did a great job sliding him over the scales into reprehensible territory.
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[deleted]
3 years ago
Another great post of yours, but let us just agree to disagree about Walt.
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Ace_Spade (9349)
3 years ago
By the end of the show, do you think he's changed for the better or worse? I'm curious if you think he starts good, goes evil (Breaks Bad) or is he is mostly just put-upon and is basically a struggling family man who is re-writing his moral compass and waking up, in a sense, to a world where he isn't subjected to the standard strictures of morality and legality?
I'm curious because I think he starts off mostly good, put-upon, but having bottled up a lot of pride and resentment. He's self-flagellating to some degree. Then, as he pursues his goals, he unleashes that id - or whatever you want to call it - and slips into evil, villainous places. Ultimately, I actually think Walt's changed for the better, but only right towards the very end as he starts to account for the wrong he has done to others, particularly his family, but also Jesse. He rights his wrongs as he is able, and he was on an upwards-trajectory, having begun to reconcile his own inner flaws.
But I'm interested in your take on it and how you see Walt's arc.
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[deleted]
3 years ago
I wouldn't agree that Walt became more evil, just disagreeable. More and more the actions of Walter went toward a more dangerous direction. In the end Walter realized his capacity for violence needed to change, and he was probably right. Gunning down a Nazi is fun, but not everyone should be treated that way. This was how Walter was, a man of civility.
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