So what if Putin/Russia gets Ukraine?
Or at least the part of the land bridge they fought for and won.
How is that going to affect you directly?
Fair question.
Answer: Me? Almost zero.
That's it
MovieChat Forums > Politics > So what if Putin/Russia gets Ukraine?
All of the Biden family secrets will come out and people will realize that we spent billions to prevent it. The whole thing is a scam on the American people.
shareI agree.
Makes sense why Biden has such a hard on for wanting to fight a proxy, wasteful war with Russia.
He has gotta protect his corrupt investments.
its a unwinnable proxy war. they would be better off creating a DMZ and calling it a day...
shareYou two are ignorant.
Bush started NATO expansion, first mentioning prying Ukraine away from Russia, and Trump was the first President to start arms shipments to Ukraine.
^^^
this
Nothing unless an actual nuke hits us.
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Interesting how that threat happened not under Trump but it is Biden, a Dem., who gets us closer to WW3 instead.
shareShould that be the default attitude for would-be aggressors trying to annex, take chunks from other nations? Let them do what they want?
In real geopolitical terms, it buoys Russia. Moldova is at risk due to the Transnistria strip that have officially requested to be annexed by Russia.
I wouldn't like to speculate what Russia might have planned for the Baltics.
"Should that be the default attitude for would-be aggressors trying to annex, take chunks from other nations? Let them do what they want?"
It has been the attitude of America since 1776 or even before when our white ancestors started murdering and stealing land from the Amer. Indians.
So how can we point a finger at something with three pointing back on the same hand?
Let them work it out on their own.
America doesn't have to be the world cops.
Unless you have something personally invested in Ukr., which the majority do not, why care at all if Russia gets it?
Heck, it actually might be better since it is a corrupt country being run by a comedian.
And that is no joke.
>It has been the attitude of America since 1776 or even before when our white ancestors started murdering and stealing land from the Amer. Indians.
I mean, it hasn't. USA has intervened repeatedly against would-be aggressors, rightly or wrongly for a long time.
>So how can we point a finger at something with three pointing back on the same hand?
So because the USA did it originally therefore it should be okay for everyone else do it?
Okay. Sure. Just so long as you acknowledge what that means. Although the slow degrading of US relations across the world as it withdraws from all interests will indeed how down-the-line impacts.
>Heck, it actually might be better since it is a corrupt country being run by a comedian.
Ah yes, because Russia famously has much less corruption.
> America doesn't have to be the world cops.
Actually we have not done that bad a job at world cop, keeping trade lanes open, and not being too corrupt, but on many occasions we have assassinated or deposed democratically elected foreign leaders, and taking a minimal amount of corruption.
It can be argued that we should have smashed the Middle East or let Britain continue their adminstration of the Middle East when you look at what a corrupt cesspool it has become.
It doesn't make sense to have two countries as heavily militarily armed as the US. It just leads to instability and possible war.
The real Deep State is the fascist underbelly in the US, mainly a resurgence of the Southern States that never stopped fighting the Civil War. Their fascist economic power corrupted our government and is now controlling most of our corporations, and driving the militarism.
Ukraine isn't Poland or some other sovereign nation. Ukraine IS Russia. Putin ain't Hitler.
shareHow is Ukraine russia?
Ukraine is quite literally a sovereign nation, and has been since the fall of the USSR
that clown is probably nazi ruzzian
shareUkraine is Russia, we've done this dance, idiot.
You probably think the Union was justified in invading the Confederacy to "save the Union". You would probably also think the same thing if Texas seceded and the federals invaded them. Yet you think we need to send billions to keep Russia from taking Ukraine back. That makes you a hypocrite, unable to think for yourself.
>Ukraine is Russia, we've done this dance, idiot.
You claiming it doesn't suddenly make it true.
>You probably think the Union was justified in invading the Confederacy to "save the Union".
Are you openly pro-Confederate, or something?
>You would probably also think the same thing if Texas seceded and the federals invaded them. Yet
I would likely think no such thing about Texas now. Are you saying you suddenly support the principle of self-determination?
Why can't I say "Texas is America" to that?
If Texans should have the right to self-determination and leave the USA, if they so wish, then why can't Ukrainians? Why are Texans apparently not American if they so choose to not be so, but Ukrainians have to be Russian?
>Yet you think we need to send billions to keep Russia from taking Ukraine back. That makes you a hypocrite, unable to think for yourself.
No, your position of pro-Texan self-determination but rejection of Ukrainian self-determination is rooted in abject hypocrisy. You are projecting.
Nice deflection. You didn't answer my questions.
I claim it because it's true.
The point is that a conflict between Texas and the US is a conflict between Texas and the US. It does not warrant worldwide participation. If the US invaded Canada or Mexico, that is a different story. Get it, dummy? Ukraine absolutely has the right to determine its own destiny. They can do it without billions of our tax dollars.
>The point is that a conflict between Texas and the US is a conflict between Texas and the US. It does not warrant worldwide participation. If the US invaded Canada or Mexico, that is a different story. Get it, dummy? Ukraine absolutely has the right to determine its own destiny. They can do it without billions of our tax dollars.
Texas is de jure and de facto governed by the USA. Ukraine is an independent nation. They are not a part of Russia.
Your comparison is false. This would be more like if Chechnya or Tatarstan tried to leave Russia.
Nothing but deflection. You shit heads can never respond to a direct question with a direct answer.
shareYour comparison makes no sense. Ukraine is not governed as a part of Russia. They aren't trying to separate from Russia. They aren't part of Russia. Russia is trying to force Ukraine (or parts of it, at least) to become Russia.
shareUkraine was part of Russia for a thousand years. They had never been independent until 1991. Even if you support their independence, why is it the U.S.'s job to guarantee it? They're not part of NATO and we have no treaty with them.
Just very dangerous to get into a proxy war with another nuclear power over a country with a rather tenuous claim to historical independence.
>Ukraine was part of Russia for a thousand years. They had never been independent until 1991.
So fucking what?
Ukrainian national consciousness existed way before 1991.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBSh0Ok6cU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNESt9dwZH0&t=86s
>They had never been independent until 1991. Even if you support their independence, why is it the U.S.'s job to guarantee it? They're not part of NATO and we have no treaty with them.
I would assume you think the USA should just leave NATO though.
>Just very dangerous to get into a proxy war with another nuclear power over a country with a rather tenuous claim to historical independence.
You mean the "tenuous claim" that Russia literally accepted, and that every nation on earth accepted?
No, I support NATO. If Russia attacks a NATO nation we go to war. Again, Ukraine snubbed their nose at NATO in 1991 upon independence. We have no treaty with them. We can't defend every nation on earth in every war like we've been doing for 75 years. We lose anyway. Time to stop.
shareI have yet to see any evidence that you're capable of thinking for yourself.
share> You probably think the Union was justified in invading the Confederacy to "save the Union".
No doubt about it. The failure was in not purging all the Confederates from the government.
"How We Win the Civil War", by Steve Phillips explains this. It is why all the Republicans begin their campaigns in overtly racist places as a dog-whistle to let the corporations know where they stand.
Purging American citizens??? That's what makes you people wannabe tyrants today.
shareYou don't even read do you?
shareI read. You half wits are tyrants and don't even realize it. Little examples of it everywhere.
shareI am a full-wit enough to know that half-wit is one word, hyphenated.
You're the kind of idiot who think the Police are tyrants, most probably because you are a criminal in your dead soul.
Oh joy, you found a typo. I'm so proud of you.
As for the rest, what the fuck are you talking about???
Sure Ivan. Go get your 5 rubles for comment.
putin huilo. rashka-gavnyashka
I don't give a rat's ass about Ukraine, Russia or your dumbass comment. I'm an American pissed off that taxpayer money is being squandered on a lost cause half way around the world, on a conflict that is none of our business. But thanks for the standard issue leftard response.
shareThat may well be so, but Ukrainians still are not Russian. Go read some basic history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBSh0Ok6cU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNESt9dwZH0&t=86s
Ukrainians are Russians, idiot. "Basic history" involves the story of the Kievan Rus. Kievan as in "Kiev", the capital city of Ukraine. "Rus" as in Belarus and Russia. These are all the same people with the same roots. This is like a conflict between England and Wales.
Oh and I hate to hurt your feelings but I know all that without having to Google it. That's the problem with you morons, you never "learn" anything. Googling has made you functionally retarded.
The Ukrainians certainly don't see themselves as Russians. They see themselves as Ukrainians. That's why they've been fiercely fighting the Russian invasion of Ukraine for the past 2 years.
share>Ukrainians are Russians, idiot. "Basic history" involves the story of the Kievan Rus. Kievan as in "Kiev", the capital city of Ukraine. "Rus" as in Belarus and Russia. These are all the same people with the same roots. This is like a conflict between England and Wales.
Click the links I provided to you. It specifically outlines the cultural and historical differences.
Except that Wales is governed as a part of the UK. It's a horrific comparison. Ukraine was not in a union with Russia.
And no, English people are not the same as Welsh people in any case.
What's more - who gives a fuck? They don't see themselves as Russian. Why should it be forced on them?
>Oh and I hate to hurt your feelings but I know all that without having to Google it. That's the problem with you morons, you never "learn" anything. Googling has made you functionally retarded.
Clearly not, because you are arguing against stuff that directly contradicts you.
Where did I say anything should be forced on them? I didn't. I said I didn't care and don't want to subsidize their defense.
The point is that Russia invading Ukraine is NOT the same as Russia invading other countries. It is not the same as what Hitler did and Russia does not have the capability to wage such a war.
You idiots will stop at nothing to reinforce this bullshit narrative. A narrative created by corrupt politicians to protect their own interests. You're suckers and you have been duped.
>The point is that Russia invading Ukraine is NOT the same as Russia invading other countries. It is not the same as what Hitler did and Russia does not have the capability to wage such a war.
Ukraine is an "other country" just like any other country. Not actually sure how it's hugely different from the Hitler occupying the Sudetenland actually.
This is like a conflict between England and Wales.
Excellent analogy. Yes, two different countries but with close ethnic and political ties which have made them almost inseparable. share
Except that Wales is governed as a part of the UK. It's a horrific comparison. Ukraine was not in a union with Russia.
shareIt's a perfect analogy and they were all once part of the USSR.
And England subjugated Wales like it did every other part of its island.
And Ukraine in 1991 was not "subjugated" by Russia. It was independent.
This would be more like the UK invading Ireland now.
You are a very unintelligent person.
shareSo no arguments, just insults. And you think that makes you look smart?
Are you able to defend your claims?
It is an observation. You are very unintelligent. You only repeat what you've been told without thinking for yourself. It makes it impossible to have an intelligent conversation or debate with you.
I don't do anything to "look smart". It's you leftists that are obsessed with empty appearances.
Respond to these points then:
And Ukraine in 1991 was not "subjugated" by Russia. It was independent.
This would be more like the UK invading Ireland now.
UK/Ireland is not a good analogy. Are you that unaware of your own history?
Fact remains, Ukraine is a former USSR territory that Russia is now trying to reclaim. Not our business, legally or morally. I don't want billions of my tax dollars going there, only to save Biden's business interests.
>UK/Ireland is not a good analogy. Are you that unaware of your own history?
Yes it is. Ireland was once part of the UK. It now is not. Ukraine was once part of the USSR (and the Russian Empire). It now is not.
>Fact remains, Ukraine is a former USSR territory that Russia is now trying to reclaim.
And in this comparison, Ireland would be a former UK territory that the UK would be trying to reclaim. Would that be acceptable?
If you don't think the USA should fund to defend it, then fine, but don't pretend that Russia has any moral right to do what they are doing.
>It's a perfect analogy and they were all once part of the USSR.
So? Ireland was once part of the UK. Would that justify UK invading it now?
Should Russia get to invade the Baltics, and Finland?
> Ukrainians still are not Russian.
About half of them are.
That's not demographically true at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#After_World_War_II
In 2001, Ukrainian self-identity comprised 77%
This is statistical tricks. You are not even comparing the same country. About a third of the country wanted peace at any cost, and would have voted to give up Crimea and not join NATO for peace, but the US promoted the nationalists in the coup and drove this whole thing - and it has been an utter failure - which is the entire point.
Fighting for Taiwan and against Chinese hegemony in Asia is far more important than Ukraine which never should have been undertaken as a military operation.
The point is that there is a significant portion of the population who speak Russian, and the enthic Ukrainian nationalists are if not Nazis very much into ethnic cleansing and have worked against the Russians since Ukraine become independent to the point of armed conflict.
The most enthusiastic Nazis were know to come from Ukraine, and Germany used to use Ukrainian soldiers in their death camps because most Germans couldn't do it.
>This is statistical tricks. You are not even comparing the same country. About a third of the country wanted peace at any cost, and would have voted to give up Crimea and not join NATO for peace, but the US promoted the nationalists in the coup and drove this whole thing - and it has been an utter failure - which is the entire point.
You claimed that half of Ukraine is demographically Russian. There's no evidence for this. Crimea is mostly Russian. Parts of the Donbass are Russian. But it's not remotely true of Ukraine-at-large.
And "a third of the country" who apparently wanted peace at any cost don't represent a majority of Ukrainians. So not sure what the relevance here then.
And when did Russia ever say they would let Ukraine, minus Crimea, join NATO?
>Fighting for Taiwan and against Chinese hegemony in Asia is far more important than Ukraine which never should have been undertaken as a military operation.
John Mearsheimer vibes
>The point is that there is a significant portion of the population who speak Russian, and the enthic Ukrainian nationalists are if not Nazis very much into ethnic cleansing and have worked against the Russians since Ukraine become independent to the point of armed conflict.
Most Ukrainians speak Russian. So what?
The "ethnic Ukrainian nationalists" do not represent a majority, or even a notable minority of the population.
>The most enthusiastic Nazis were know to come from Ukraine, and Germany used to use Ukrainian soldiers in their death camps because most Germans couldn't do it.
Not sure how you'd measure this at all, but most Ukrainian nationalists fought with the Nazis due to some vain hope they'd get to exist as a state after the Nazis won. Completely misguided but that was the motive for many of them. The same collaboration existed in many states under the USSR umbrella at the time.
I don't have time for this.
You take two seconds to post and raise 10 different things - dishonestly and to no productive end but just to bitch and argue.
Go back to the point is that you support a war that did not have to happen because you keep promoting the idea that Russia is a threat to Europe when it is the other way around.
>You take two seconds to post and raise 10 different things - dishonestly and to no productive end but just to bitch and argue.
I respond to your points. You also made many different points.
>Go back to the point is that you support a war that did not have to happen because you keep promoting the idea that Russia is a threat to Europe when it is the other way around.
I don't support a war with Russia. I also didn't support Russia invading Ukraine for landgrab reasons.
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/10/1071766987/u-s-russia-dicuss-ukraine-can-diplomacy-help-avoid-a-military-confrontation
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-colin-powell-joe-biden-business-vladimir-putin-d9246bee4d6aee4fdd27aa9e1e738f0c
Russia also denied they were planning to invade Ukraine, right up until they did.
Nothing you say here is relevant to anything.
Russia invaded because of Ukraine massing troops on the Donbas border and escalating artillery barrages to soften up for an invasion.
That is why they made the feint towards Kiev, to draw off some of those troops and reduce the threat to Donbas while they would defend it.
>Russia invaded because of Ukraine massing troops on the Donbas border and escalating artillery barrages to soften up for an invasion.
What would Russia do if Tatarstan broke off and declared independence?
And what does that have to do with Russia taking the Kherson and Zap oblasts, notably not part of the Donbass?
>That is why they made the feint towards Kiev, to draw off some of those troops and reduce the threat to Donbas while they would defend it.
This is completely speculative. Russia made many unforced errors in their initial attempt to Ukraine, and had set up saboteurs and insiders to compromise the Ukrainian defence forces in the hope it would collapse. They were banking on the Ukrainian government fleeing and the country effectively folding. But their military is so hollowed out through corruption and complacency that almost none of what they initially planned to do worked out.
> They were banking on the Ukrainian government fleeing and the country effectively folding.
Talk about speculation ... you are just a total mass of contradiction and propaganda for the West. Just admit it.
>Talk about speculation ... you are just a total mass of contradiction and propaganda for the West. Just admit it.
And yet your speculation is more accurate? Russia only wanted the Donbass but decided to annex Kherson and Zap oblast.
Also, no, there are many studies on how the Russians tried to use their inside men to collapse Ukraine military. Except it just didn't work.
> Russia only wanted the Donbass but decided to annex Kherson and Zap oblast.
Because Russia knows if it did not, and if it does not totally wreck Ukraine that the US will be back after it in a few years, so they needed a buffer and to cut off Uraine from the Black Sea..
Face it, this was a huge mistake. It has wrecked Ukraine - even if they won. It has screwed the American taxpayer and it is another case of BS American propabanda, which you show up in mere seconds to defend.
>Because Russia knows if it did not, and if it does not totally wreck Ukraine that the US will be back after it in a few years, so they needed a buffer and to cut off Uraine from the Black Sea..
The US will be back after it to *what*? To start a war of their own? Russia literally has nukes. Are you unironically justifying imperialistic landgrabs quite obviously beyond the original scope of the Russian justifications?
And what of Odessa?
Or Transnistria? Moldova isn't in NATO. The ex-USSR strip is governed by Russian remnants who have officially asked Russia to annex them.
Oh, you are one of those cowardice submissive trumpists who bowed to russia because Trump bowed and now kiss her ass around internet like they are your owners? Because they are. They own Trump and so they own all his fanatical supporters.
shareGod you people are idiots. A) This has nothing to do with Trump. Why are you so obsessed? B) No conservative is "submissive" to anyone, let alone fucking Russia. These are all figments of the insane liberal imagination.
C) You fucks are subservient to China, whether you know it or not. Nice deflection.
>C) You fucks are subservient to China, whether you know it or not. Nice deflection.
How are we "subservient to China"?
Presumably according to you, Taiwan should be forced to unite with the PRC because they're both Chinese.
Because your rhetoric serves the purposes of a corrupt establishment that is in the pocket of the PRC.
Where do you get this? I never said anything 'should' happen. I said it's none of our business.
>Because your rhetoric serves the purposes of a corrupt establishment that is in the pocket of the PRC.
What rhetoric is this?
How are they in the pocket of the PRC?
>Where do you get this? I never said anything 'should' happen. I said it's none of our business.
Sounds like you're more "in the pocket" of the PRC than me if you don't have any interest in the protection of Taiwan as an independent state.
Your complete ignorance drives this discussion into useless BS land. Nothing either side here says makes any sense at all.
share> I wouldn't like to speculate what Russia might have planned for the Baltics.
Nothing.
How would you even pretend to know this?
shareHow would you? The fact is that Russia has no problem with the Baltics, but the Baltics are always provoking Russia, and mostly trying to draw the US into it.
You made the claim Russia was going to threaten or invade the Baltics - prove it. And not with your BS links - make an actual argument based on facts.
I didn't say they would. I said I wouldn't bet NATO on the idea that they won't.
>The fact is that Russia has no problem with the Baltics, but the Baltics are always provoking Russia, and mostly trying to draw the US into it.
This isn't remotely true AT ALL. They constantly complain about them removing Soviet memorabilia and requiring citizens to learn Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian. Russian Duma politicians openly accuse them of being Nazis.
Why would the Baltics try to "provoke" Russia? For what gain?
>You made the claim Russia was going to threaten or invade the Baltics - prove it. And not with your BS links - make an actual argument based on facts.
You know my "BS links" that I could link to actually link to statements by Russian politicians.... threatening the Baltics? What do I need beyond doing that?
We have politicians calling for war against both Russia and China- that is why I call your BS YT links, BS YT links - they mean nothing, and are totally dishonest.
sharerussi would already turn Baltic countries into dust, wiping them out if they weren't under NATO protection.
That why why rusasia always throws hysterics about NATO. Because it means she can't attack those countries now. That's why Finland and Sweden joined NATO the moment invasion started. That's why Ukraine always begged to be in NATO.
Because NATO means Peace and Security. russia means death and destruction.
Truly amazing to see here trumpists not understanding such easy thing.
World politics according to Bozo the Clown.
shareUS security is tied to European security. European security (present & long-term future) is tied to Ukraine.
shareNo it ain't and Putin taking Ukraine won't amount to jack shit. Russian was baited into the invasion in the first place.
Except all the Biden family secrets will be revealed and we'll know the real reason why we're involved.
Hahaha. I like you. Hilarious how they're telling all these horror stories now that if the U.S. doesn't give Ukraine more billions our credibility as a superpower is damaged. You're right. It means "jack shit" to the U.S. And Russia is in no position to move on any other country, nor is it likely. Russia may have a border skirmish with Georgia. So? That's happened and they never tried to absorb Georgia. And what if they did? Old Soviet Union, who gives a rat's ass?
share>Old Soviet Union, who gives a rat's ass?
So you no longer care about trying to justify it from Russia's perspective. Just "I'm alright Jack".
It would be perfectly acceptable to you if Russia invaded a sovereign nation just because it was once part of the USSR, purely for reasons of revanchism, regardless of what the people there thought?
Not "okay", just don't care. Not enough to spend billions or throw away American lives. Are you willing to go to the Ukraine and die for their freedom?
shareSo are you a total isolationist? Should the US hold no interest in any country at all?
shareWe should be more isolated and less involved than we are. Ukraine isn't "any country". I think we have our hands in way too many world conflicts that are none of our concern. Russia/Ukraine is one of them.
shareKeep pushing him on his willingness to die so that Ukraine can keep the Crimean region. He has no conviction to do so and, in spite of his willingness to play arm chair general here, his argument falls apart.
Don't let him shift from that point; you absolutely had him there.
Mouthpieces like him aren't willing to die for anything because they are cowards at heart.
shareThat's a internally consistent position to hold.
But it doesn't mean that Ukrainians don't view themselves as Ukrainian, and that it is a genuine historical East Slavic group with its own language and culture.
The point here is after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the U.S.'s failed interventions allover the world, some of are just saying STOP! When's the last time we won a war or even backed the "good guys"?
Both Russia and Ukraine have good reason to fight. I see no good national security reason for the U.S. to get involved. After losing Vietnam and getting kicked out of Afghanistan, have we not learned a lesson?
Dude, it's not our duty or role in the world to prevent every invasion.
>The point here is after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the U.S.'s failed interventions allover the world, some of are just saying STOP! When's the last time we won a war or even backed the "good guys"?
I mean I don't know that I'd call Saddam Hussein the "good guy", or Gaddafi. Or the Taliban. Or that North Vietnam was necessarily the better compared to South Vietnam etc.
US being incompetent and getting embroiled into long conflicts they can't see out doesn't mean they were fighting the good guys.
In Afghanistan we backed the bad guys. In the 80's there was a Marxist government in Kabul which guaranteed equality for women and tried to end sexual exploitation of children. What did the U.S. do? We invaded to install a religious government which turned into the Taliban.
Saddam Hussein kept Muslim fanatics like ISIS in prison. He was also a hedge against Iran. We had him executed.
Nah, keep our military and our money at home. As if Zelensky and the Ukrainian oligarchs are any better than Putin and the Russian oligarchs? Either way it's none of our business.
We need to stop this shit.
>In Afghanistan we backed the bad guys.
I meant 2001 here. Sure, in the 80s it was dodgier.
>Saddam Hussein kept Muslim fanatics like ISIS in prison. He was also a hedge against Iran. We had him executed.
And he was still a horrific piece of shit. In no way was he remotely a good guy.
>Nah, keep our military and our money at home. As is Zelensky and the Ukrainian oligarchs are any better than Putin and the Russian oligarchs? Either way it's none of our business.
So the US should just completely withdraw from the world militarily and do nothing?
The U.S. created the problem in Afghanistan which led to 2001. If we had left the progressive Marxist government in power, there would be no need to invade Afghanistan again.
Yes, the U.S. should concentrate on our own national security. We should use our billions to promote world peace and stop funding war after war which we always lose.
>The U.S. created the problem in Afghanistan which led to 2001. If we had left the progressive Marxist government in power, there would be no need to invade Afghanistan again.
I mean, you're assuming said government would've survived the fall of the USSR. So this is pretty debateable.
>Yes, the U.S. should concentrate on our own national security. We should use our billions to promote world peace and stop funding war after war which we always lose.
In a separate comment you said that you support US commitments to NATO.
NATO is the point. We have NATO in place to avoid war with Russia. When Sweden and Finland joined NATO, Russia said they had no problem with that, as they have no territorial disputes with Sweden and Finland. Russia does not want nuclear war and we have no reason to believe they would ever attack a NATO nation.
Russia respects NATO. We need to respect Russia's ties to Ukraine whether we believe their invasion was necessary or not. Russia believed it had to protect ethnic Russians in the Donbas from Ukrainian nationalist militias.
Ukraine is in Russia's backyard and they have longstanding historical ties. We have no treaty with Ukraine. Our involvement in this war is just a tremendous mistake.
>Russia respects NATO. We need to respect Russia's ties to Ukraine whether we believe their invasion was necessary or not. Russia believed it had to protect ethnic Russians in the Donbas from Ukrainian nationalist militias.
What "ties" are these specifically?
And if that's so, that has nothing to do with NATO. And how does this explain Russia annexing Kherson and the Zap Oblast? How doest his explain the daily rants and threats from Medvedev about nuking UK, Germany, France and annexing the Baltics?
>Ukraine is in Russia's backyard and they have longstanding historical ties. We have no treaty with Ukraine. Our involvement in this war is just a tremendous mistake.
The people of Ukraine, largely, do not want to be governed by Russia. Because they have blood history with Russia that should be ignored?
Uh, the U.S. has sponsored multiple invasions of sovereign states. We are as guilty as Russia on that account. The point is, every military action by Russia which we disagree with does not warrant our involvement - ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAVE NO TREATY.
When we invaded Panama or Grenada, did Russia get involved?
Ukraine, Kyiv-Rus, is the originally Russian homeland. Moscow gave Crimea to Ukraine. Those countries have longstanding ties and we should stay out of it.
Henry Kissinger has proposed that Ukraine cede the ethnic Russian Donbas to Russia. This will end the war.
>Uh, the U.S. has sponsored multiple invasions of sovereign states. We are as guilty as Russia on that account. The point is, every military action by Russia which we disagree with does not warrant our involvement - ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAVE NO TREATY.
Not sure what this has to do with my questions about why Russia annexed the Zap/Kherson oblasts when its supposedly about protecting the Donbass.
>Ukraine, Kyiv-Rus, is the originally Russian homeland. Moscow gave Crimea to Ukraine. Those countries have longstanding ties and we should stay out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBSh0Ok6cU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNESt9dwZH0&t=86s
>Henry Kissinger has proposed that Ukraine cede the ethnic Russian Donbas to Russia. This will end the war.
And what about Zap and Kherson regions?
Dude, they're in the midst of a war. Maybe Ukraine will lose Zap and Kherson as well. That's why we need negotiations, which Russia has offered, and which the U.S. has instructed Ukraine to refuse.
It's not the fact that Ukraine is a "made-up country". (Which it is). It just has long historical connections to Russia and I see no reason to revive the Cold War over it.
>Dude, they're in the midst of a war. Maybe Ukraine will lose Zap and Kherson as well. That's why we need negotiations, which Russia has offered, and which the U.S. has instructed Ukraine to refuse.
But why did Russia annex them?
>It's not the fact that Ukraine is a "made-up country". (Which it is). It just has long historical connections to Russia and I see no reason to revive the Cold War over it.
All countries are made-up.
Who cares if it had "long historical connections". Estonia and Finland have "long historical connections". Should that just mean Russia gets to take them if it wants? Oh sure, they're in NATO, but I actually don't know why you'd care that they are.
My only concern is the U.S. and Western Europe's security. And that's why we have NATO. We need a line they cannot cross and we have it. We have treaties with Estonia and Finland.
We can't keep running around the world putting out fires.
But this war was certainly abetted by American meddling in Ukraine. Why has the Biden family been in that country since 2013? Coincidence that a war breaks out?
The U.S. needs to stop being the world's policeman. It's never worked anyway. 130 billion in aid to Ukraine would have been better spent on America.
>My only concern is the U.S. and Western Europe's security. And that's why we have NATO. We need a line they cannot cross and we have it. We have treaties with Estonia and Finland.
Much of NATO however, isn't western Europe though.
So if you're saying US should defend NATO countries that means all of Europe, or most of it.
>But this war was certainly abetted by American meddling in Ukraine. Why has the Biden family been in that country since 2013? Coincidence that a war breaks out?
I'll await evidence that the Biden family, specifically, via dealings specifically caused the 2014 Maiden and specifically somehow forced the Ukrainian people and government to try and end the Donbass/Luhansk breakaway regions.
And also, why did Russia meddle in Ukraine themselves prior to 2014?
Is Russia a country that can't make its own decisions? Is it always compelled to just react to provocation?
What would have happened if Russia did not invade?
russians very well know what they are doing. They are nazies and fascists and occupants. They got nickname "ORCS" for a reason. The are also pathological liars. Always were.
Pathological liars always lie. Even when there is no reason for it. And they will never admit truth and would keep lying.
russian do something bad. Then lie that they didn't do that. And demand "proofs". When profs are shown into their face - then say it's wrong prof and demand another. When they are shown even bigger proof - they say it's a lie and exit conversation. Then continue like like nothing happened.
If you eve meet russian anywhere - just treat them as if every word they say to you is a lie. All of them are like that. All.
"Russian was baited into the invasion in the first place".
Just when you think trumpists can't possibly be any more stupid - they manage to outdone themselves.
russians - proud nazies and proud that they attacked Ukraine and brag how they would want to attack France, Germany and other European countries.
trumpists in America: 'No, poor stupid putin and russians were tricked into attack. they are innocent, leave them alone. they are victims"
I don't even know why I'm still trying to talk sense into them. They hopeless. If people don't have brains - they will not magically get them.
When it's a NATO country, we'll have a different conversation.
Calm down, stupid. Russia warned over and over again that if the Ukraine entered NATO, it would be a problem. We pushed them. The CIA was working diligently to goad them into a conflict.
It's comical how ANY discussion that involves us not wanting to be involved means we're Russian sympathizers. You people really are that dumb.
>Calm down, stupid. Russia warned over and over again that if the Ukraine entered NATO, it would be a problem. We pushed them. The CIA was working diligently to goad them into a conflict.
Ukraine was nowhere near joining NATO. It was all for show and Russia knew this. Not only did they have territorial conflicts that made entry impossible, but they would have to get past the bloc vote - and if Hungary and Turkey blocked Finland and Sweden, the odds of them letting Ukraine in was next to terminal.
Yes, darling. You pushed them. Personal. You and voices in your had. And your cat. You three her pushed poor stupid putin and his army of nazies.
That NATO nonsense was debunked millions times. Yet trumpists live in their own small echo chamber and no one told them.
I can't with that stupidity. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Do you know country called Finland? It has a big border with russia. Bigger then Ukraine. And after russia invaded Ukraine - they got so scared that they asked to join NATO. And NATO accepted them. And now they are NATO members. And you know what russia did? One giant nothing. No, they didn't invade Finland and didn't start bombing it while Finland was waiting for voting of all NATO countries. They pretended nothing is happening.
Because invasion of Ukraine was never about NATO. But no one told stupid turmpists that so they still believe it. LOL.
Finland isn't a 3rd world shithole and was never part of the USSR.
shareFinland, however, was part of the Russian Empire.
And Ukraine isn't third-world, it's certainly not notably poorer or richer than Russia.
Honey, you, crazy qanons, kept pushing about "putin was so afraid of NATO coming to borders with rusia that he attacked Ukraine so those borders would not come".
But then we have Finland who has even bigger border with nazi russia and who joined NATO last year. And putin did not give a f*ck about it. So this is crushing that theory. Yet trumpists are too stupid to understand it. It's hilarious, really.
The idea that the CIA would attempt to "bait" russian into a proxy war so that the russian military and economy could be weakened,
is completetly reasonable.
The biggest argument against it, is that most people thought that the Ukraine would fall fairly quickly.
And Findland is a completely different situation that occurred when Russia was already completely bogged down and was not in a position to do shit. Using that as evidence that the Russians would not care if hte Ukraine joined NATO, is.... a very bad example.
dear qanon. If Finland would ask to join NATO in 2020 russia would also not do a shit.
Because NATO was never a reason why nazi russia attacked Ukraine. That idiotic theory was debunked millions times. Yet trumpist still worship it like crazy.
Was hitler also baited and tricked by CIA to start WW2?
You need to calm down. NATO expansion was certainly a national security concern of russia's.
It woudl be weird if it was not.
Why are you denying this? What point are you trying to make?
Denying what? Trumpists delusion about NATO? russia makes up new reason it invaded Ukraine every week. Because they are compulsory liars and nazies.
And the reason why they were always so obsessed with NATO is because every time new country joins it - it means they can't attack that country. That's why 3 small Baltic countries Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania sit safe and no fascistic russian occupants bomb them. That's why Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia alwys begged to be taken into NATO. Because they knew nazi russia will try to occupy them again one day.
Which happened. If Ukraine would be in NATO - there would be no war now. Because NATO = SAFETY. That's why Sweden and Finland joined it the moment nazi russia invaded Ukraine. Because they didn't want to be next.
So, you admit that nato expansion was a concern of Russia's?
Ok. So, why were you so angry that the other poster mentioned that?
Possible NATO expansion doesn't explain Russia's invasion because Ukraine wasn't going to join NATO in 2022. And Russia's real problem with Ukraine joining NATO is that it would make it harder for Russia to invade or dominate Ukraine the same way Russia dominates Belarus.
The invasion was built entirely on lies. Just a few weeks before the invasion started, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov publicly announced that Russia had no plans to invade Ukraine. Just 6 days before the Russian invasion started, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu assured U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin that the Russian army was just conducting a training exercise.
You get into a chicken and egg kind of issue. Sure, of course Russia wanted to "invade or dominate" the Ukraine,
on the other hand, they probably would have been a lot less fired up about it, if NATO hadn't expanded right up to their border.
And considering the mindless hostility to them we see in PUBLIC from people like Biden, one can only imagine the insane shit their spies in the cia and military are feeding them.
It's not a chicken or egg issue. Russia has been trying to dominate Ukraine since long before Biden became President. And NATO didn't expand right up to Russia's border. Ukraine never joined NATO. There is no "mindless hostility" to Russia from Biden. Russian aggression against Ukraine is a problem Biden inherited when he became President. Russia deserves all the hostility it gets.
shareEstonia is right against Russia, so, yes, right up to their border.
And yes, the policy from Biden, and before that from plenty of people over here, goign back to GW, the hostility seemed quite mindless, ie a matter of reflex left over from the cold war, without thought.
Yes, Estonia borders Russia. But Russia didn't invade Estonia in 2004 when it joined NATO because its membership in NATO wasn't a real threat to Russia. The same is true for Ukraine and Ukraine isn't even a member of NATO. The way Putin talks about Ukraine makes it obvious that he just wants to occupy/dominate Ukraine merely for the sake of doing so. He believes Ukraine is really just part of Russia.
The hostility to Russia is certainly not "mindless". As I said before, Russian aggression against Ukraine is a problem Biden inherited when he became President. Russia has been committing aggression against its neighbors since at least 2008. I don't know what "mindless hostility" against Russia from Bush 43 that you're talking about.
NATO is an ANTI-RUSSIAN alliance.
The expansion of NATO up to Russia's border was/is clearly and obviously a threat to Russia.
That Russia did not start a war over it, when it happened in no way proves that it was not a "real threat" to Russia.
You can say words and deny the reality of the situation, but that will have little if any impact on the actual war and the people dying.
What do you WANT from this war?
NATO is an alliance to defend the rest of Europe from Russian aggression. It's only "anti-Russian" in that sense. No one has even tried to actually attack Russia since it was invaded by Germany during World War II. The expansion of NATO up to Russia's border is obviously not a threat to it. That's why Russia didn't do anything when Latvia and Estonia joined NATO in 2004. The fact that Russia didn't do anything proves it wasn't really a threat. You can't even tell me why it's a threat. That's just a claim a lot of people make without trying to explain what it really means.
Putin is clearly just lying about NATO expansion being a threat. He lies about everything. The invasion was built entirely on lies. Just a few weeks before the invasion started, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov publicly announced that Russia had no plans to invade Ukraine. Just 6 days before the Russian invasion started, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu assured U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin that the Russian army was just conducting a training exercise.
What I want from this war is for Ukraine to push the Russians out from all of its territory.
1. Nato is an alliance to defend WESTERN europe from the Soviet Union. If we had not EXPANDED nato right up to the borders of Russia, our case for Russia not needing to feel threatened from US, would be so much stronger.
2. Really? After all this death and suffering, you are really just going to let begones be begones and live in peace with Russia right next door? Mmmm, What about the ethnic russians that collaborated? What happens with them?
NATO started off as an alliance to defend western Europe because that was the region under threat from the Soviet Union at that time. The point of NATO was to protect any country under threat from Russia. Those countries now include eastern Europe. You keep claiming that NATO expansion makes Russia feel threatened but you don't provide any evidence that it really feels that way. Putin is lying about this.
At this point I'm not going to worry about all the consequences of Ukraine pushing Russia out of all of its territory. Whether Ukrainians let bygones be bygones after that's accomplished is for Ukrainians to worry about. What happens to ethnic Russians who collaborated after Ukraine wins won't be a concern until after Ukraine wins.
1. We were and still are enemies, as demonstrated by our actions. They would have to be... brain dead to NOT feel threated by us expanding closer to them.
I'm sure there is evidence of their concerns out there somewhere. I have no interest in wasting my time going looking for it.
2. So, the plan is, if you get your way, is that we just keep the war going, till the russians give up and go home. Bring the Ukriane into NATO, making US treaty bound to fight to protect it, and you expect RUSSIA and the RUSSIAN people to just sit there with their dicks in their handss, while the Ukrainians, have their revenge upon the ethnic RUSSIANS, that, some of them, were collaborators, right across teh border?
That plan seems... not good to me. I would like one... that is ... more good.
We're only enemies with Russia because we counter their threats and aggression. Our actions are a response to Russia's threats and aggression. All the countries on Russia's western border have a history of being attacked by Russia. You can't be sure there's any evidence that NATO expansion actually makes Russia feel threatened until you actually see it. You just assume it exists because Russia keeps talking about this supposed issue.
I never said anything about Ukraine joining NATO after it wins the war. Whether or not Ukraine does so, it should be Ukraine's choice. The possibility of Ukrainian revenge against ethnic Russian collaborators is a bad reason for Ukraine to not win the war. It may unfortunately be a zero-sum situation. What Russia is doing to Ukrainians now is worse. The question of what happens to ethnic Russians shouldn't determine whether Ukraine wins. If the war ends with ethnic Russians all fleeing back to Russia then they'll still end up under Putin's protection.
1. YOur enemy is growing in numbers and growing closer, you feel threatened. Anyone that would ask for PROOF of that, is not a serious person. It your position is based on Russia NOT feeling that way, then that is silly of you.
2. Solely the Ukraine's choice? No question of whether it is good for US? What an odd view off how Alliances are supposed to work.
NATO is only Russia's enemy because Russia made it an enemy. NATO was specifically started to defend countries from Russia. Spreading that defense to other countries is not a threat to Russia. NATO is purely defensive. We know Russia doesn't really feel threatened because Putin has repeatedly made it clear that he views a Russian conquest of Ukraine as an end in itself.
When I said that joining NATO should be Ukraine's choice, I meant that it should be Ukraine's choice whether it asks to join NATO. Joining NATO would require unanimous consent of all current members. Russia shouldn't get to dictate to Ukraine or to NATO whether Ukraine joins NATO. And I never said that I believe that Ukraine should join NATO.
1. Putin saying that, in no way supports your claim that Russia does not feel threatened by nato expansion.
Of course seeing your enemy grow stronger AND closer, is a threat. Your denial is absurd.
2. Do you support ESTONIA being in NATO?
1. This is unfalsifiable. We can't really know if Russia is truly threatened. But Ukraine was never really close to joining NATO anyway. It was stuck in approval hell.
The "NATO expansion" already happened when Poland, the Baltics, Romania and Bulgaria all joined NATO. Russia did nothing then.
>Of course seeing your enemy grow stronger AND closer, is a threat. Your denial is absurd.
You think Russia thinks that NATO is going to launch an invasion against a nuclear power?
2. Yes, I do.
1. Your enemy is growing larger, stronger and closer. Of course you feel threatened. You ARE threatened.
Denying that, is not a reasonable.... position.
2. I will wait for the other posters's answer. I want to make a personal point about/to him re our discussion.
1. Russia makes the west their "enemy". I'll ask again: You think Russia thinks that NATO is going to launch an invasion against a nuclear power?
shareI think that any country would like that their enemies not even have the OPTION of invading them.
If CHINA formed an alliance with Mexico and started building bases there, you can bet that the US would feel threatened.
And of course, THREATS are not limited to formal invasions.
You know that right? You weren't trying to be deceptive where you?
>I think that any country would like that their enemies not even have the OPTION of invading them.
NATO could have invaded Russia 10 years ago if, for some reason, they wanted to risk a nuke to the face.
Being invaded is very much a risk that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania didn't really want to chance and so they requested to join NATO.
As did much of eastern europe.
>If CHINA formed an alliance with Mexico and started building bases there, you can bet that the US would feel threatened.
If the USA had a history of intimidation, annexation and occupation and lobbed threats at Mexico, it would absolutely be their right to enter some kind of defensive pact with Mexico.
>And of course, THREATS are not limited to formal invasions.
How else has NATO threatened Russia?
1. Irrelevant.
2. Irrelevant. The point is that the US would feel threatened.
3. In every way.
1. It's not remotely irrelevant. Eastern European countries asked to join NATO. NATO set them on the path to membership, and they joined. Russia gets no say in this.
2. USA has nukes. USA has a bigger military budget than the next 10 nations combined It would be stupid to think Mexico is planning to invade the USA regardless of whether or not they joined.
3. Not an answer. Specifically, how has NATO threatened Russia? I want actual examples.
1. Which is irrelevant to what we were discussing.
2. And still if China made an alliance with Mexico we would feel threatened. YOur denial of this is absurd.
3. in every way.
1. How so? NATO at no point has expressed any aggressive intent to Russia, and all ex-Iron Curtain states that joined have been on the receiving end from Russia (as the USSR).
2. USA would be threatened in the sense of it happening due to their international prestige and respect declining. That is to say that if Mexico entered into a military alliance with China it would be due to a decline of US respect globally. It would not be threatened militarily.
3. Not an answer. Don't bother asking me any questions until you answer this. I will outright refuse.
Specifically, how has NATO threatened Russia? I want actual examples.
Your just talking nonsense.
1. How so? NATO at no point has expressed any aggressive intent to Russia, and all ex-Iron Curtain states that joined have been on the receiving end from Russia (as the USSR).
2. USA would be threatened in the sense of it happening due to their international prestige and respect declining. That is to say that if Mexico entered into a military alliance with China it would be due to a decline of US respect globally. It would not be threatened militarily.
3. Not an answer. Don't bother asking me any questions until you answer this. I will outright refuse.
Specifically, how has NATO threatened Russia? I want actual examples.
Looks like the question-bot is on repeat again 🙄
shareHe refuses to answer any of my questions, I copy and paste myself.
You also copy and paste yourself.
You expect people to answer your incessant Hatchling questions and play along with your straw-manning? 🤣
Now, play dumb and make more excuses. Go…
I fail to see how those questions are "hatchling" at all, or how I strawmanned him.
He made specific claims about NATO that require evidence.
Dear dipshit, those assholes you voted for, they've been lying to you for years.
Are you really so stupid as to equate Putin's invasion of Ukraine to Hitler's conquest of Europe? Yes, yes you are.
Yes, stupido. Putin's invasion of Ukraine is literally poor mans Hitler's conquest of Europe. It's only beginning. putin would really want to be as big and powerful as hitler. But is not. He is cheap copy and imitation.
You have to be completely and utterly retarded to believe that. Russia is a mere shell of the former USSR. Its military capability is a fraction of what it once was. Putin can wish in one hand and shit in the other.
share> Russian was baited into the invasion in the first place.
Very true ... but then you go off into BS-land. Democrats support the wars that Republicans provoke because if they don't the overwhelming fascist/conservative corporate political lock on this country will defund them completely and we will lose the illusion that we have a democracy completely.
Biden has to please the military industrial complex and keep our war machine engaged - he's just doing what any President has to do in this day and age.
US economy is tied to European markets - period.
That is what this is all about.
Russia has done nothing but play defense since the end of WWII, where we let them take 1000 times the burden of fighting Hitler in hopes that they would be a pushover at the end of the war, and we've been at them ever since.
We have our rationalizations about that, but none of it is about democracy or socialism or communism, it is all about hegemony.
Russia has over 3x the land areas of the US, and about half the people, and their society is more multi-cultural than ours, and educational system is superior, as is China's. America still continues to believe that educating Americans is a destabilizing influence to the government by the plutocrats. We are rapidly turning towards being the bad guys of the world.
If we were a true democracy we would not have the ever increasing inequality or social fragmentation.
I think the one thing we disagree on politically is Ukraine.
[[Russia has done nothing but play defense since the end of WWII, where we let them take 1000 times the burden of fighting Hitler in hopes that they would be a pushover at the end of the war, and we've been at them ever since.]]
Yes Russia suffered far worse losses, close to 9 million military (not including the greater # of civilians) alone. I don't see how the US could have influenced Stalin's general's tactics. Russia seems to value the lives of their men less than other countries. Maybe more Americans should appreciate the great cost (necessary or not) Russia paid in WWII but blaming the US for how they ran their war, I don't see it. Both countries have been at it since WWII ended.
[[Russia has over 3x the land areas of the US]]
And they weren't satisfied with being the biggest country, needed that Ukraine land.
[[and educational system is superior, as is China's]]
Agreed.
[[America still continues to believe that educating Americans is a destabilizing influence to the government by the plutocrats]]
Agreed, it's disgusting, though I think it's mostly Republican politicians devaluing education. And Russians might be better educated but it doesn't mean they're better informed. If they were better informed, they might not think the Ukraine war was necessary to begin with or worth continuing.
[[We are rapidly turning towards being the bad guys of the world]]
We are often perceived that way even when we aren't doing bad things but in general agree. There's the school of thought that foreign policy isn't about morality, it's about power, but maybe I will expand on that in another reply. I think we learned a huge lesson from Iraq/Afghanistan. Before we thought we were invincible, that might makes right. Well it doesn't. We forgot the same lesson in Vietnam. Or maybe the powers that be thought "That was the 60's, with today's technology things will be different."
[[If we were a true democracy we would n
[[If we were a true democracy we would not have the ever increasing inequality or social fragmentation.]]
Agreed. There are definite flaws in our democracy. Maybe lobbyists should not exist. Dark money. Super pacs. We have to be willing to change things. We made booze illegal once so it's not impossible but sure seems like it these days.
> I don't see how the US could have influenced Stalin's general's tactics.
Could have shortened the war by opening a second front years sooner.
> And they weren't satisfied with being the biggest country, needed that Ukraine land.
The wanted Ukraine because of the history and farmland. It is also the highway from west to east - a highway many armies have traversed easily both ways.
> And Russians might be better educated but it doesn't mean they're better informed.
That's of dubious importance. When Russia is on track, and same with China the lives of their citizens are better. In the US the average American is in the gutter. We have free speech and the vote, but our government manipulates both.
> There's the school of thought that foreign policy isn't about morality, it's about power, but maybe I will expand on that in another reply.
Hunt down the link I posted to the brief John Mearsheimer interview.
You merely have to read the kind of history conservatives want to ban to realize how cut-throat American corporations and plutocrats are. They were beating people, firing them, machine-gunning them for asking for decent working hours and no child labor. It is hard to believe relative to the nonsense we are told about our mythological history.
Americans are slightly better off slaves. If you are educated and can compete in global markets you can join the bourgeoisie, but still really have no say all they can do is parrot what they are told.
The bourgeoisie are a class of business owners and merchants which emerged in the Late Middle Ages, originally as a "middle class" between peasantry and aristocracy.
>Russia has done nothing but play defense since the end of WWII, where we let them take 1000 times the burden of fighting Hitler in hopes that they would be a pushover at the end of the war, and we've been at them ever since.
I think UK and USA being separated by the sea and not viable targets for land assaults had a lot to do with that as much as anything. and Germany attacking Russia in the first place.
>and their society is more multi-cultural than ours, and educational system is superior, as is China's.
China may be different (although there are plenty of Chinese students abroad), but pretty much all of the Russian elite and upper class people send their kids to study in USA and Europe. So this is absurd on its face.
What is absurd are you constant lies in defense of American face and propaganda.
We're talking about the average Russian, not the small fraction that go overseas for university - and those who do are often for cultural and political reasons, sometimes spying. It is sad that you cannot engage in an actual discussion without total dependence on a propaganda narrative. As I've said before, I don't want to put you on ignore as I finally decided with others here on MC, but you are pushing it by your failure to be able to discuss without insisting on BS arguments.
Any lies in particular?
>We're talking about the average Russian, not the small fraction that go overseas for university - and those who do are often for cultural and political reasons, sometimes spying.
Most of the well-off Russians study abroad because their universities just aren't up to the quality and prestige, for the most part, of US/EU/other universities.
Rich Americans rarely go to study in Russia at comparable rates.
I don't really give a flying fuck what you do.
It is a cultural exchange in normal times, but America does not want Russians in America because they do not want the Russia side of history to get out.
There is a strong push in the US to manipulate what is taught in schools, as in today the state of Alabama is following other states in making teaching certain subjects or lessons an actual fireable offense.
This is the kind of BS you seem to support Skavau.
Funny how you always seem to get so hysterical. Of course your don't, you're a troll.
>It is a cultural exchange in normal times, but America does not want Russians in America because they do not want the Russia side of history to get out.
I am not talking specifically about stuff post-2022.
>There is a strong push in the US to manipulate what is taught in schools, as in today the state of Alabama is following other states in making teaching certain subjects or lessons an actual fireable offense.
Okay. Guess what? Russia is propagandising to its kids in its schools too. Arguably on a seriously worse scale post-2022.
>This is the kind of BS you seem to support Skavau.
I don't recall supporting Alabama doing anything.
>Funny how you always seem to get so hysterical. Of course your don't, you're a troll.
Saying I don't care what you do isn't "hysterical". I'd argue you throwing your toys out of the pram whenever I chop up your post and respond to it bit by bit is more indicative of hysteria, to be frank.
Russia would be getting back land it always occupied previously in history?
Didint the Russians build Chernobyl?
Right.
So why anyone should have a problem with this I dunno.
They nuked themselves.
Let 'em have their poisoned, abandoned land back.
Why take Russia so personally?
Because it's a major Democrat taking point so they can continue to launder money
Ukraine was famous for money laundering and corruption.. Bidens have been there a long time now Biden has invited all his friends along with the scheme
No disagreement from me on any of that.
Early on during Russia's defense, of which Biden objected to ending on peaceful terms, I figured Biden was at war to protect his corrupt investments.
Of which is also a "win" for him should he have investments in weapons or the MIC somehow, which is what other past presidents have done and their reasons for waging wars.
Biden wins while staying safe and warm.
The civilians lose their lives, homes and land.
Nice.
reading pro-russian trumipsts is like peeking into psych ward. Can you all just emigrate to russia to your new owners? Thanks.
shareDemocrats are the dictators you moron.
They control the media, silicon valley, hollyweird, college academia, they packed the courts, control the FBI and IRS
Like Putin Democrats are going around prosecuting and bankrupting anyone associated with trump or political opposition
A airlines whistle blower was just killed before he could talk.
A airlines executive just got into a gun fight with the government trying to protect himself.
The Democrats dont even hide it any more. Abuse of power in every sector.
Putting the most unqualified and ridiculous looking people in positions of power.
Defense secretaries, white house press secretaries, mayors, prosecutors, college professors.
> Because it's a major Democrat taking point so they can continue to launder money
That is such total nonsense.
Democrats are the dictators you moron.
They control the media, silicon valley, hollyweird, college academia, they packed the courts, control the FBI and IRS
Like Putin Democrats are going around prosecuting and bankrupting anyone associated with trump or political opposition
A airlines whistle blower was just killed before he could talk.
A airlines executive just got into a gun fight with the government trying to protect himself.
The Democrats dont even hide it any more. Abuse of power in every sector.
Putting the most unqualified and ridiculous looking people in positions of power.
Defense secretaries, white house press secretaries, mayors, prosecutors, college professors.
> Democrats are the dictators you moron.
Oh, you must be right since you pull your panties up so tight you can get made and made an idiot of yourself.
Talking about no hiding it? Trump. You're a lunatic.
Epstein
Seth rich
Air lines whistle blower
Air lines executive
Three jan6fh officers who so called killed themselves over that day.
Democrats have more bodies under them then Putin.
They dug too deep trying to set up the narrative for jan 6th and silenced 3.officers who were going to come forward to tell the truth.
>Like Putin Democrats are going around prosecuting and bankrupting anyone associated with trump or political opposition
Who has been bankrupted purely for associating with Trump, or just for being opposition?
>A airlines whistle blower was just killed before he could talk.
Assuming that was a hit, how do you know this wasn't a corpo move rather than directed by the democrats?
>A airlines executive just got into a gun fight with the government trying to protect himself.
US police are trigger-happy and always have been.
What's the conspiracy you're alleging here specifically?
The my pillow guy was canceled for questioning Bidens win.
Democrats told major companies like walmart and target and kohl's to stop selling his product.
Can you imagine trump telling companies to do the same to a back entrepreneur because he claimed trump won by Russian collusion.
Rudy Giuliani, Paul Manafort, trump's legal team.
Assuming it was a hit?, the guy said if I die it wasnt suicide.
Then a week after, an air lines executive has to protect himself from not ending up the same as the whistle blower . And your response was police are trigger happy?
These people wanted to say something the gov does not want to get out.
Like the three jan6th officers who wanted to tell the truth about that day all committed suicide.
Democrats have more bodies under them then Putin.
And you either play dumb or are complicit and enjoy the abuse of power by the Democrats.
>The my pillow guy was canceled for questioning Bidens win.
No, he was sued by a company for defamation.
>Democrats told major companies like walmart and target and kohl's to stop selling his product.
Can I see some sources on this? Was this legally enforced?
>Rudy Giuliani, Paul Manafort, trump's legal team.
None of these people were targeted purely for questioning Biden's win.
People constantly claim that Biden didn't really win the election all the time. Including many people in Daily Wire, and Republican representatives. Why haven't they all been arrested?
>Assuming it was a hit?, the guy said if I die it wasnt suicide.
Oh, well, that's conclusive then. That makes it all obvious. Apparently this guys case against Boeing had mostly been wrapped up and he had released almost everything he had needed to release since he whistleblew. Why now?
>Then a week after, an air lines executive has to protect himself from not ending up the same as the whistle blower . And your response was police are trigger happy?
Can I see what you are even referring to? Do these events have anything even to do with each other? One was a whistleblower releasing company secrets, the other was an employee shot in a police raid of some sort?
And the point about US police trigger-happy is true. Lots of people have been shot rightly or wrongly in raids over the years.
>Like the three jan6th officers who wanted to tell the truth about that day all committed suicide.
Do you have the slightest evidence they "wanted to tell the truth"?
And if the government is apparently willing, and capable of killing opposition at this level then why hasn't Fox News and The Daily Wire been shut down? Why are they openly, daily, attacking Joe Biden without any consequences?
Why haven't the Democrats arrested Republican senators and representatives who claim the election was rigged?
Why haven't you been arrested?
What a bunch of BS. Biden is not involved in anything but the object of Republican lies to slander him. Trump is the security threat because of his failed businesses and legal fines and fees.
shareHow did Biden make his money?
Biden is not a billionaire nor especially wealthy. You Trump fans, and Republicans in general praise the most cleptocratic criminals, and then you blame regular American Democrats like Bernie or Biden for not living in poverty.
I remember in past years Bernie especially being criticized for owning a house, and then getting a vacation home, and then most absurd wearing an expensive warm jacket in the winter in Vermont where it is fucking cold.
You boneheads.
So should it be acceptable if Russia invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland?
shareDoubtful they are going to invade those places.
Even if they did, so what?
>Doubtful they are going to invade those places.
They are much easier to invade than Ukraine. Yes, they're in NATO - but if NATO is tested, if the US withdraws - they could become much more easily manipulated.
Russia literally has an arrest warrant for the Estonian President out.
>Even if they did, so what?
So do you think we should sit and watch with indifference when any nation starts a war with another with the purpose of annexing them?
Estonian President Kaja Kallas ( and others ) are accused by Russia of destroying Russian monuments and desecration of historical memory in an attempt to wipe out Russian history. Skavau is so full of propaganda stories.
>Estonian President Kaja Kallas ( and others ) are accused by Russia of destroying Russian monuments and desecration of historical memory in an attempt to wipe out Russian history.
And? Estonia was occupied against their will by the USSR after WW2.
It's not Russias country. Their laws of 'desecration' of soviet monuments do not apply.
After Russia saved their loser asses. If not for Russia Estonia would not even exist.
shareYour neutrality mask is slipping.
So because Russia liberated them from the Nazis (after first annnexing Estonia themselves in 1940) that means Estonia should perpetually be in their debt forever and wholly beholden to them indefinitely?
Russia does not govern Estonia. They get no say on what monuments may stay or not stay in Estonia.
Manipulating history to propagandize people against Russia is something Russia is free to comment on. You are so full of anti-Russia propaganda.
shareAt this point I would like to remind you that Russia (Stalin) initially enthusiastically stood on the side of the Nazis (Germany, Hitler).
Just to mention the attack on Poland at the beginning of WWII.
It was only later in the war that Hitler and Stalin were no longer friends.
That Russia supposedly "liberated" Germany is a bad joke. 🪆​
When did I say Russia can't comment on it?
They however seem to think they get to decide Estonian domestic policy. That is an imperialistic mentality.
Countries tend to prop up their narratives and do whatever they can do. Doubtful Russia will have any power to arrest these people, who knows what that means in Russia. Kissinger avoided going overseas or to certain countries because he was a wanted war criminal. It's all political theater not to be taken very seriously.
shareRussia has no power unless she steps in Russia, but given Russian rhetoric about the baltics - it would not surprise me if they declare the need to "denazify" those countries and essentially force a regime change in the future if they sense NATO weakness. These are small countries that would not be remotely capable of withstanding Russia should they ever decide to do that.
What countries had arrest warrants for Kissinger? Quick google shows someone in UK tried a citizens arrest once.
Right there on the spot with fear tactics.
shareThat's not the context in which I was replying. The other user said "who cares" if Russia tries to annex Ukraine.
So I asked: Should it be acceptable if Russia invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland?
Last history was Finland invading Russia.
share....After Russia had annexed parts of Finnish territory a year before. And this happened 80 years ago.
sharePoint is no indication that Russia wants to or will invade Finland, and especially if Finland is in NATO.
shareFinland is less likely, but the Baltic countries on the weakness or withdrawal of NATO seem more plausible. I certainly wouldn't bet against weakening NATO on the assumption they would not do that.
shareSo should it be acceptable if Russia invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland?
Or if the UK invaded Ireland?
Russians were there before the Finnish?
shareWhat does this have to do with anything?
Is your concept of self-determination stuck in the 19th century?
Ukrainian national consciousness and identity existed way before 1991.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBSh0Ok6cU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNESt9dwZH0&t=86s
And your pathetic YT links proving nothing that you cannot even make your own argument for.
shareThose YT links show that a Ukrainian consciousness existed long before Lenin. The user I was replying to somehow demeaned the self-determination rights and identity of Ukrainians, dismissing them as merely Russians.
shareThat's irrelevant, and the fact is that most of what is present day Ukraine was land grants from Russia.
shareWhat specifically, other than Crimea were "land grants"?
shareI am not here to school you in facts you will just reject. Look it up yourself.
sharehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic
When Ukraine briefly held independence in the Russian Civil War, this was its territory at maximum extent. Superimposed onto Ukraine, it's most of contemporary Ukraine.
This is an area in Wikipedia that is doubtful. Most of wikipedia is often good at issues that are not politically hot, but this stuff is questionable.
The basic point that you keep running from is that the West has had a project to split Ukraine off from Russia because it was previously about 1/3 of the Russian economy - that Russia invested in and built.
Any other country would see this as provocation for war, and the US thought to get away with it because of our money, power and Russia's weakness.
Just admit it is all about economic warfare - the people of UKraine did not want this - and they have paid heavily for nothing.
What specifically is questionable here?
>The basic point that you keep running from is that the West has had a project to split Ukraine off from Russia because it was previously about 1/3 of the Russian economy - that Russia invested in and built.
Ukrainians don't want to be tied to Russia anymore. They chose to look westward. Did the west help them with that? Sure. So what? They don't owe Russia their allegiance. They aren't duty-bound to be a satellite state.
>Just admit it is all about economic warfare - the people of UKraine did not want this - and they have paid heavily for nothing.
The people of Ukraine did not want to be invaded by Russia, but they did (and do) wanted to join with the EU or have closer ties with it (for instance).
This narrative is total American propaganda. You disregard half of the history of this conflict. No point to argue with you - only reason is to post the other side of it, and ignore your deliberate BS.
shareThere's repeated polling on the matter from Ukraine between 2014-22 that shows a majority of Ukrainians in favour of EU ties over Russia.
shareThat's because of false promises and the coup. You accept polls from Ukraine but scoff at Russias polls and elections. Neither can be trusted.
Yanukovych the couped President rejected the EU connection because it ripped off Ukraine and was mostly directed to screwing Russia. He reasoned that he could make a better deal by being a neutral market trading with both sides - which is what caused the coup.
>That's because of false promises and the coup.
What "false promises" between 2014-22 are you referring to?
>You accept polls from Ukraine but scoff at Russias polls and elections. Neither can be trusted.
https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/FOR-RELEASE-2021-November-Survey-of-Residents-of-Ukraine_ENG.pdf
Here's one of the Ukrainian polls. What Russian polls do I reject? I think their election results are bunk, but they've been more authoritarian since Ukraine since 2014.
>Yanukovych the couped President rejected the EU connection because it ripped off Ukraine and was mostly directed to screwing Russia. He reasoned that he could make a better deal by being a neutral market trading with both sides - which is what caused the coup.
And his people protested his decision to do that, and it culminated in him fleeing.
People did not protest, that was a forcible military coup backed by US advisors and weapons.
The options Yanukovych was working for were not presented to the Ukrainian people - he was forced UNDEMOCRATICALLY out of office.
And you see what has happened. I guess you support it because you lie that it was all Russia's fault and push this narrative that Russia is moving to take over the world. To that end you list other countries telling them to be fearful.
You are a fake fuck'n troll.
>People did not protest, that was a forcible military coup backed by US advisors and weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNFrvGOb9o
Yeah, this surely isn't a protest.
>The options Yanukovych was working for were not presented to the Ukrainian people - he was forced UNDEMOCRATICALLY out of office.
He fled the country and then got impeached.
>And you see what has happened. I guess you support it because you lie that it was all Russia's fault and push this narrative that Russia is moving to take over the world. To that end you list other countries telling them to be fearful.
At no point did I ever claim that Russia wanted to take over the world. I do however wonder what their plans might well be for the Baltics and Moldova.
Going to comment on the polling I linked you?
TrentnQuarantino, you’ve arrived at the same conclusion as does everyone who engages Skavau in good faith.
At first you answer his stupid questions because you give him the benefit of the doubt and generously assume that he’s a sincerely inquisitive interlocutor. Eventually it becomes apparent that he’s constantly strawmanning your position, and getting you to run around answering questions based on a premise you don’t even hold.
He will also play The Hatchling - pretending he’s not aware of self-evident and well established facts and asking endless questions about them so that you have to run around finding evidence to support the patently obvious. He’s trying to exhaust you so that when you eventually stop answering his insincere questions it looks like you’ve bailed from a line of Socratic questioning, to manufacture a fake ‘win’ for himself.
Of course, none of his questions are sincere, and he’s just a bag of deceitful rhetorical tricks. The only thing he cares about is being a bitch for the regime and gaslighting people into thinking wokism and regime dominance aren’t real… so that they can continue. The same principle as Holocaust denial.
What self-evident thing in this chain, or in chains in this thread am I supposedly pretending not to be aware of? How am I "strawmanning" his position?
What does any of the discourse surrounding Russia invading Ukraine, and NATO have to do with "wokism" and "regime dominance"?
Gotta admit, you nailed Skavau better than I.
He is an ankle-biting troll that never leads anywhere but to annoyance. He proves it in his response to your dissection of his dishonest participation in discussion.
Googling links and shot-gunning questions that lead all over the place to no apparent purpose.
I've had patience enough with him and sadly as with other trolls going to put him on ignore.
Skavau is like that annoying mosquito in a room that every so often buzzes in one's ear. At least a mosquito has a reason.
>Gotta admit, you nailed Skavau better than I.
What lies have I specifically said about you? How have I strawmanned you?
>Googling links and shot-gunning questions that lead all over the place to no apparent purpose.
You make multiple points in your posts, so I respond to them separately. Why do you get to shotgun claims but I don't get to shotgun reply?
You mean backing up claims I made with evidence. A simple example. You claimed "People did not protest, that was a forcible military coup backed by US advisors and weapons.". I specifically found actual footage from Kyiv in about 10 seconds where there were clearly mass protests against the government.
You also made a whole bunch of claims about Ukraine that was trivially responded to just by citing the census, or showing opinion polling (which incidentally, also showed notable dissatisfaction with the government of the day, rather unlike Russian opinion polling). You'd have known that if you bothered to actually read it.
Was that video faked? Why didn't you address it?
Personally, the more I read about AI the more I think many, if not most of the very active accounts here are beta-tests of Right-wing AIs.
Notice he always cricular reasons support for the war in Ukraine, without any larger context, like has it been good or totally destructive for Ukrainans. Pretending to care about Ukraine - but totally dismissive of its people, and actual reason.
If you notice Skavau and others never talk about their own points of view, or lives - because they don't have them. As AIs they will eventually learn. They are a huge threat to the world, and since America leads in this technology so far we will also end up leading the world into massive techno tyranny if we do not see it and counter it sometime soon.
Notice the shift Skavau takes when threatened or backed into a corner - it always uses the "I don't give a fuck" language. It's a fake.
>Personally, the more I read about AI the more I think many, if not most of the very active accounts here are beta-tests of Right-wing AIs.
You do realise that Melton *is* a rabid right-winger right? And accused me consistently, as he stalks me across the forum, of being a left-winger, right?
>Notice he always cricular reasons support for the war in Ukraine, without any larger context, like has it been good or totally destructive for Ukrainans. Pretending to care about Ukraine - but totally dismissive of its people, and actual reason.
What are the "circular reasons" I have for supporting the war in Ukraine? I support Ukraines right to defend themselves from the attempted annexation or puppeting by Russia.
>If you notice Skavau and others never talk about their own points of view, or lives - because they don't have them. As AIs they will eventually learn. They are a huge threat to the world, and since America leads in this technology so far we will also end up leading the world into massive techno tyranny if we do not see it and counter it sometime soon.
I quite clearly support Ukraines right to defend themselves.
>Notice the shift Skavau takes when threatened or backed into a corner - it always uses the "I don't give a fuck" language. It's a fake.
I say "I don't give a fuck" when you threaten to put me on ignore, or complain about my conduct. What else is there to say? I don't answer to you, and I'm not bound by how you think I ought to behave.
I also might ask on this point. Melton thinks its acceptable to accuse me of being a pedophile on no evidence.
Do you think that's acceptable, moral conduct? Can you repudiate such behaviour?
Are you ready to give back Alaska to them? Because they never forget it was theirs. And they would invade it because they see what a coward Trump is and his pathetic party of traitors. russia knows that republican rats are too much of a cowards to defend their own land and would just watch from distance.
And all those trumpists from Internet and their pussy "veterans" would run to their basement and hide. Elon Must would hide in his fancy bunker that you know he already built just in case.
Are you serious or are these just ramblings of a paranoid troll?
If that was going to happen Putin would have done it already.
Besides, he is limited in weapons, war hardware and soldiers.
Putin will leave us alone even if Trump wins.
The thing is - USA is losing at supersonic speed status of Powerful Supercountry. Thanks to republican traitors who bowed to russia and block congress on putins orders. And EVERYONE sees that. And that Trump is putins bitch.
And when such gigantic thing happens - that vacuum of power is quickly being taken by other forces. This time it China and russia. USA lost respect, people no longer fear country that is russian bitch. Some country in Africa just kicked out Americans soldiers from their country and told them to fack off. Because they are under russian now and russia supports them and sends soldiers.
That is one small example of what about to come. And when CHina, iran, russia, north korea see that America is now just a big country full of cowards who won't defend itself - they can attack it saying: "What will you do, Trump?"
And what will Trump do if he would be president and russians will invade Alaska and China - Hawaii? Declare war to those countries and send rockets? To which those will send rockets back. Who will fight? Musk? Trumpists?
Trump and his fanatics are too small minded to understand what they did when that idiot bowed to putin and started blocking congress on his orders.
Russia sold Alaska to the US, like France sold the Lousiana Purchase. Every one of your posts are so full or lies and noise - like most of the moronic accounts here that post on fake political issues.
Edouard de Stoeckl, Russian minister to the United States, negotiated for the Russians. On March 30, 1867, the two parties agreed that the United States would pay Russia $7.2 million for the territory of Alaska. For less that 2 cents an acre, the United States acquired nearly 600,000 square miles.
So? LOL. russians always bring and remember Alaska. If coward and loser like Trump would be in power and russia owns him - they could easily invade it saying: " And what will you do? We will nuke you if you will try to stop us".
And so coward Trump would be at choice - go to full out war with russia or give up and give them Alaska. And he would give up.
Do you want to be drafted to go to war with russia, TrentnQuarantino? Any other trumpists? You will run to your mommy and hide.