bombing so hard its embarrassing - Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) Discussion

It's about sending a message to Hollyweird.

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

The 'woke' back lash is definitely an issue ..

But I think the main reason is its coming off Genisys (and Salvation but mainly Genisys) a film that is deemed to have caused real damage to the franchise and that wasn't too long ago in everyone collective memory (plus idk about US but UK tv have been showing it alot in the build up/release of DF almost like a reminder how bad it was), also its got kind of mixed reviews (good but not great like T2), the early trailers looked dull and meh (abit TG2), and maybe Terminator and Arnold just isn't popular now for GenZs (same for Alien/Predator/Blade Runner) hell maybe Cameron isn't too popular now either in todays Marvel world! ..and the older fans have tuned out after 3 duds in a row ..

reply

[–] Utpe (658) 4 years ago

Salvation (2009) isn't looking so bad now, and I considered it to be the turd of the franchise.

I'll give them this about "Woke Fate": At least the de-aging (from what I've seen on YouTube ) was spectacular. But the fact that another T-800 comes back and kills John Connor (probably living off of the grid nonetheless) a year later gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

They should've taken a note from Rise of the Machines (2003).

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

I know right! Finishing the Salvation trilogy might actually have been the way to go lol at least T6 would've been the movie everyone wanted to see (like SW Episode III) the 2029 future war blue night battlefields, sending Reese and the terminators back, John getting whacked by T850 (basically the Genisys opening but the whole film)

reply

[–] Kowalski (59368) 4 years ago

I KEEP READING ABOUT THIS FUTURE WAR STUFF BEING THE "MOVIE EVERYONE WANTED"...NO ONE I KNOW WANTS THAT MOVIE.BORING AND REPETITIVE IS WHAT THAT WOULD BE.

reply

[–] ccr1633 (1426) 4 years ago

As opposed to this piece of shit, which according to you was closer to what everyone wanted?

reply

[–] Kowalski (59368) 4 years ago

EVERYONE WANTED....THATS THE PROBLEM...EVERYONE WANTS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.WHAT THEY DELIVERED IS A FAILURE ON MANY LEVELS.TO IMPLY THAT FOLLOWING "WHAT EVERYONE WANTED" IS JUST SILLY THOUGH.

reply

[–] ccr1633 (1426) 4 years ago

If you're fixating on the absolute meaning of "everyone" then you're being a drudge. I just read it as "lots and lots of people" or "the majority of people I know". I myself would greatly prefer to see a well-made Terminator film centering on the period of time when John Connor "turned it around," as Kyle Reese said.

reply

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

At this point in time it's a little too late for that party, but I agree that the future war, or the time after Judgement day were what most die hard Terminator fans wanted to see before all the sequels messed everything up. We were through with time travel - at least the way it was told in T1/T2 and just wanted to get on with it - a dark and brutal conclusion to the story.

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

if only Cameron had directed a 2029 future war T3 in 96.. there couldve still been all the crappy sequels (probably Genisys couldve still been made as it was doing the Star Trek 2009 alt universe thing) but they wouldve been like extensions/spin offs of the trilogy if they fucked them up like they did, and you could just say well just ignore them nothing can touch the Cameron trilogy

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

Both T3 and Salvation come off much better in the wake of Dark Fate. Before last night (when I saw DF) I was iffy on both those films, being such big steps down from T1 and T2, but now I have a new appreciation for them.

In fact I just picked up the Terminator Anthology (with T1 through Salvation) and am happy to own all those films. However I can tell you I will never own Genisys or Dark Fate.

reply

[–] mrbnk (408) 4 years ago

Genysis is so much better than Salvation or T3.

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

As someone who just rewatched Genisys a few weeks ago, I have to disagree. That film is a fucking mess. It's miscast, confusing and, worst of all, dull.

reply

[–] mrbnk (408) 4 years ago

To each his own, i suppose. But i think Salvation John Connor was miscast, and Bryce too. And the everything else sucked too: motorbike terminators, transformers terminators, throwminators, environment, resistance, the whole marcus thing, all of them.

And T3 too. "We kissed at Mr. Brown's basement, let's save the world together". "Don't you remember me, hasta la vista baby? - that was another terminator -what, are you coming out of an assembly line? -duh?!". "I'm John Connor, i'm such a crybaby!", "My girlfriend who learned about killer robots a few hours ago takes down HKs and fights back better than me, the saviour of humanity". "(Nuclear Shelter Radio): hey, anyone there? - I'm JC - hey John, what are we going to do? we are clueless, lead us, whimpy John!"

Then again, Genysis had the immortal evil robot John, but at least didn't have throwminators, or cartoon physics such as DF. Some concepts were nice, such as the good T800 living through the years preparing, the police detective who was trying to understand what he saw years ago, how Sarah Connor would have turned out to be when she had time to prepare and to adjust to the whole Judgement Day thing. Anyways, just my two cents.

reply

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

wondering if ellison/skydance is in financial trouble now, considering 'gemini man' also bombed.

reply

[–] Bubbathegut (17234) 4 years ago

its the year of the bombs

reply

[–] avigalidou (603) 4 years ago

The Terminator saga is a primal MALE fantasy the T-800 is a fantasy of being an indestructible scary machine(cyborg-android) badass. Kyle Reese-John Connor are patriarchal archetypes the vast majority of the fans are male and most of them over 35 (Millenials, Gen Z don't care about Terminator),when you turn this into a mediocre WOKEFEST about illegal immigration &neo-feminism claiming that this is Sarah's story and killing on screen John then you deserve to FLOP SO HARD.They missed their target audience who wanted the damn Future War directed by Cameron himself NOT SALVATION NOT T2 3D a TRUE T3 starring JOHN CONNOR (not Furlong necessarily) Kyle Reese maybe Dr.Silberman as an "enlightened" old man who regrets not believing Kyle&Sarah(you could have him being the mentor of Kyle)and Arnie as a human(maybe older Dutch from Predator) who was the basis for T-800 and showing him being tortured by Skynet and having multiple de aged Arnie T-800's fighting the Resistance and the end should've been Kyle inside the TDE traveling back in 1984.
If Cameron didn't want it I would give it to Mel Gibson to shoot intense futuristic battles and reinvigorate the alpha male badassery to the Saga...

reply

[–] BurningSun (717) 4 years ago

Is this a joke? I guess Sarah Connor was a male all this time as she was being just as badass and ‘alpha’ as anyone else in T1 and T2?

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

Yeh I feel all the woke stuff is one reason for DF bombing.. but i think the main reason is coming after TGEN shit the bed so bad the sheets were stained through (in the minds of the audience)

Mel directing Terminator: 2029 Future War would've been all kinds of awesome, he probably would've done it too after he pissed off Hollywood and no doubt had difficulty getting films made the past 10-12 years (even tho he directed the legendary Braveheart and the mega blockbuster of ThePassion) so hed have probably jumped at being offered a big franchise film like Terminator or Conan

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

Genisys couldn't have helped but I think two things really hurt Dark Fate's chances at the box office:

1. All the buzz about it being one big wokefest, which it is. People don't want a Terminator movie getting political with them. They just want to go and have fun with some smart sci-fi action.

2. And this may even be the bigger thing: The trailers looked like shit. They did not convey any kind of interesting story and were also CGI heavy in the extreme.

I myself was totally down for a new Terminator movie that had Cameron onboard as a producer, but my feelings shifted dramatically as soon as I encountered #1 and #2 above.

James Cameron will always be a legend but frankly I think he's lost his touch. The fact that he's decided to devote the final chapter of his career to Avatar just confirms this.

reply

[–] Kowalski (59368) 4 years ago

YOU ARE JUST PROJECTING YOUR OWN OPINIONS...

reply

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

Just as we all do - including yourself.

reply

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

heading toward its very own 'judgement day' with a pathetic 10m 2nd wkend!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/11/09/box-office-james-cameron-and-tim-millers-terminator-dark-fate-starring-linda-hamiton-and-arnold-schwarzenegger-faces-judgment-day-with-74-friday-drop-as-dc-films-joker-nears-1-billion-and-angelina-jolie-in-walt-disneys-maleficent-mistress-of-evil-tops-400-million/#6d1c6cd15195 (long fuckin link!)

as I just said on the Doctor Sleep board (also bombing with an embarrassing opening wkend) todays current generation that goes to the movies on mass dont give a FUCK about those old R rated SF franchises us 40 something guys still OBSSESS over like Terminator, Shining, Blade Runner, Alien, Predator etc (and they probably only care about SW because they saw the prequels as kids and were allowed to watch the OT on dvd as it was rated 'U' - unlike all the 80s R rated SF films)

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

A damn shame about the box office failure of Blade Runner 2049. I thought it was the best film of 2017.

I actually guessed it would make AT LEAST $600 million worldwide and might even break into the billion dollar club. I was wrong.

reply

[–] Alex (1487) 4 years ago

If only it didn't have 3 hours worth of establishing shots in a 5 hour movie, it'd be great :D

reply

[–] TMC-4 (19447) 4 years ago

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Terminator-Dark-Fate-flop/answer/Dirk-Hooper

reply

[–] Ghosted (6) 4 years ago

An interesting read, but I have to question.. is it really a good movie as the author says? Ignoring any politics it was a pretty generic action flick imo

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

At the moment id place it 3rd best Terminator.. however I'm a sucker for a new Terminator or Alien and the latest one is always the best (after the 1st two classics in the case of Terminator and Alien) but it might change (hell I was even impressed by Salvation and Genisys at the time!) . so maybe in a few months i'll figure one of the previous ones takes the 3rd best spot again (but T345 were all pretty bad so maybe not ..)

reply

[–] Ghosted (6) 4 years ago

I think that if you knew nothing about terminator movies, it's just an ok movie though, nothing really feels dangerous or sparks the imagination greatly.

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

Even if you just judge it as a film, and ignore all political commentary, it sucks. It starts out okay but just gets worse as it goes until you get to the end and realize it's not a very good movie.

There are individual scenes that are pretty well directed, but ultimately it's little more than a T2 copycat that does everything worse than the movie it's copying.

There's little actual story here, and what story does exist is mostly ripped from previous entries. And while some of the early action scenes are pretty good, the big finale is just a boring CGI extravaganza that lacks dramatic stakes because it lacks a sense of reality.

reply

[–] kuku (3510) 4 years ago

Thank you for the link. Quite interesting.

reply

[–] TMC-4 (19447) 4 years ago

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Terminator-Dark-Fate-flop/answer/Jos%C3%A9-Octavio-Motta

Terminator Dark Fate: This movie is as bad as the previous T1 and T2 sequels, if not worse. It doesn’t matter if it’s well done, or if the effects are good, or if the actors are good, story is fundamentally flawed in the same way. The idea is that they want to pull a “Star Wars Sequels” by remaking the exact same story, with a soft reboot, and in order to do that they must undo the original movies and kill off the original cast. John Connor, the central plot point and future savior of mankind, and temporal paradox yin to Skynet yang are callously executed on the opening scene, and Skynet is similarly erased, both replaced by a new AI bad guy and a new hero. It’s a terrible idea. Even if it’s a well-made movie, it should flop for the terrible idea and sentiment behind it.

reply

[–] TMC-4 (19447) 4 years ago

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Terminator-Dark-Fate-flop/answer/Eric-Schumaker

Because Terminator doesn’t exist without John Connor.

Repeat after me: Terminator. Does. Not. Exist. Without. John. Connor.

Now, to be fair to the cast, there were excellent reasons not to hire on Edward Furlong, who was the actor who played John Connor in T2. I believe that one of the other answers has already discussed his substance and legal problems in depth, so I won’t go into them here. Simply put, not retaining Mr. Furlong was a wise decision. And it would appear that the director of Dark Fate, Tim Miller, wanted to retain the original cast as much as possible. But I think that this is a classic example of missing the forest for the trees. I don’t think that many of the audience would particularly have cared whether a new actor was brought on for the role of John Connor. But removing John Connor, by having him killed within the first five minutes of the movie, was a big mistake.

It gets worse.

A supercomputer, bent on destroying humanity, facing a war in which the Resistance is slowly winning, sends a soldier back in time to destroy the future leader(s) of the Resistance. Fair enough. The plot still very much follows the same old, same old that we saw in the original Terminator. The Big Bad, Skynet, has once again returned to terrorize humanity before it even existed. Right?

Wrong.

(Yeah, this is um, totally not Skynet. It is a different AI known as Legion that has exactly the same set of abilities and powers, only better. But it is totally, definitely not Skynet).

So, this latest Terminator installment threw out both the old protagonist (John Connor) and the old antagonist (Skynet). And you call this a Terminator Franchise?

reply

[–] ebhaynz (3540) 4 years ago

Honestly, if you're going to put a grannie and gramps on your movie poster it's going to be VERY HARD to gain any buzz for your film. Plus it's just a lame effort from just about everybody, the director, James Cameron(yes, JAMES CAMERON), the CGI that looks worse than practical effects from 35 years ago.
This isn't just franchise fatigue, this is a rehash. They've given basically ZERO reasons to see this movie, thus it's a Box Office BOMB.

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

Arnold should always be a draw no matter how old he gets. He's fucking Arnold Schwarzenegger! Legend!

reply

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Nah he can disappear. I'm tired of seeing that old man thinking he is still a robot.

I used to love him up until Genisys but then when I saw that shite movie, I lost all respect for him. He obviously doesn't care about the fans nor the iconic character which made him an overnight star 35 years ago.

And to further confirm my beliefs, he is now playing a married bearded curtain fitter. How do you go from ripping out a heart for a pair of pants to bearded curtain fitter?

He is a sellout and sadly he always has been (at least since his later years). I heard rumours he only did T3 because Sellout Cameron told him to do it for the money.

They are both business men first and foremost.

Arnold could have easily used his star power to change the script if he cared about his iconic T800 to honour the fans.

The day Arnold uses his star power to correct a terminator script is the day I will respect him. And that day will never come.

reply

[–] PrimeMinisterX (8314) 4 years ago

I don't think every decision he's made has been a good one, either professionally or personally, but I'll always love Arnold and have immense respect for him for everything he's achieved.

I actually just bought his Modern Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding a few days ago. It's a beautiful book.

The dude is an American treasure.

reply

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

He is a wonderful role model and inspirational figure I'll admit.

reply

[–] bozo_500 (12286) 4 years ago

More embarrassment
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/11/10/weekend-box-office-terminator-dark-fate-collapses-but-harriet-holds-as-joker-nears-1-billion/#1df618962747

Terminator: Dark Fate continued to underperform in North America, earning $10.8 million (-63%) in weekend two for a $48.587 million ten-day cume. It’s a sign that making a better sequel couldn’t save a franchise for which general audiences stopped caring decades ago. The Linda Hamilton/Arnold Schwarzenegger/Natalia Reyes/Mackenzie Davis/Gabriel Luna flick will end its domestic run with around $65-$70 million domestic.

That’s about what Rise of the Machines earned in its first five days and what Terminator: Salvation earned ($65 million) in its Thurs-Mon Memorial Day launch back in 2009. The film is being released in North America by Paramount but everywhere else (save China) by Fox/Disney. It earned an additional $29.9 million overseas, including a chart-topping $6 million debut in Japan, for a new $150.9 million overseas cume (including $45 million in China) and $199.2 million worldwide.

It earned 26% of its money in North America this weekend, compared to 24% of its money earned in the running total, meaning China’s opening inflated the overseas might last weekend. At this rate, it’ll end its run with around $65-$70 million domestic and around $270 million worldwide. Yes, I’m been beating the drum on this one’s failure, because, like Dark Phoenix, it’s an example of the studios looking at the threat posed by VOD and streaming and giving theatrical audiences exactly what they don't want

reply

[–] ebhaynz (3540) 4 years ago

[deleted]