[deleted] - Watchmen (2019) Discussion

[–] NorrinRad (5120) 5 years ago

Seeing as how so many of the commenters are not too well read just chalk it up to them being willfully ignorant and afraid.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

How do you know how " not too well read" they are? Where's the proof that backs you up? Seems like pure conjecture on your part and your conjecture is proof of your own willful ignorance. Oh the irony is blatant.

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[–] AndyKing1967 (34714) 5 years ago

So how did you like the opening episode?

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

I didn't, in a nutshell. It's Watchmen by name only. The theme is not Watchmen. The use of the color yellow, is pretentious and pointless all because the smiley was yellow. Pretentious fan service wins and deserves no points.

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[–] NorrinRad (5120) 5 years ago

[–] Sandman27 (27) an hour ago
How do you know how " not too well read" they are? Where's the proof that backs you up? Seems like pure conjecture on your part and your conjecture is proof of your own willful ignorance. Oh the irony is blatant.

Hmmm, the Rubber and Glue retort. Thanks for replying.

Many of the commenters and their comments that I have perused, you not being one of them as of yet, have offered up responses, conjectures and some surface level critiques that have little if anything to do with the series or the actual comic:

This show is racist
posted 7 days ago by raymondoz2007 (94)
17 replies | jump to latest

Somehow a great premise like Watchmen, they have turned it into a anti white racist show. I won't be watching this leftwing swill.

Reply by MrRadical
on October 22, 2019 at 6:32 PM
Yep the race-baiting is obvious, another political agenda garbage.

Henrik P

5h ago
This is a pile of garbage, a true disgrace to the industry. Even with politics aside, the series has so much nonsense and plot holes.

The show/series doesn't HAVE to have a cliff-notes version to be consumed and understood but if commenters read a little, just a little and or used their own versions of the internet(s) they'd understand more and it would be exhibited in their comments. I am not stating that they have to enjoy or not enjoy the series but their comments would be more informed.

I'm not even trying to change your mind or opinion but I am wondering what has you so agitated and confrontational?

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

First of all, that's an extremely small sample size and that sample size does nothing to back up your own ignorance. Just FYI. And even if that was all you got, for you to jump to the conclusion that you did, only proves your Ignorance that much more. The irony is extremely blatant.

The whole reason why people have such a dislike for it is because they READ the source material and found the show to not resemble it. I mean one of the post you listed pretty much proves that. How can you be so Ignorant to your own Ignorance???

You can't change my mind with ignorant claims and arguments backed up with zero proof or proof that you present on your own that contradicts your own argument.

What did I say that was confrontational? Because I questioned your weak argument? To label everyone is "willfully ignorant" because they didn't share your point of view is easily and obviously fallacious.

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[–] NorrinRad (5120) 5 years ago

1st you're not discussing the series, the show, the performances, the narrative, the storytelling nor the creativity.

[–] Sandman27 (29) 2 hours ago
First of all, that's an extremely small sample size and that sample size does nothing to back up your own ignorance. Just FYI.

Those were just the few I decided to include not that I was doing a definitive survey of all posts from all sources from all commenters from everywhere. Stay tuned with my use of the word ALL.

And even if that was all you got, for you to jump to the conclusion that you did, only proves your Ignorance that much more.

I neither leapt nor jumped to any conclusions. I read a fair amount of comments from a variety of sources, TMDB.org, Deadline.com comments section:

Anonymous
on October 22, 2019 11:07 am
What a disappointment! I signed up for HBO for this show only. I was expecting continuation of the Watchmen movie mixed up with some NIN music, basically a good entertainment. What the heck was that? Another biased social propaganda shoved down my throat again. Unsubscribing from HBO. Period. What a joke!

I wasn't trying to overwhelm you just whelm you. And I'm not sure you know what "irony" means or how to use the word to make a point properly in a sentence. Might be that "Uninformed Opinions" are an entitlement for you and probably to you? Yet instill they ofttimes are made because of a lack of knowledge or understanding. Both the opinion and the commenter remain uninformed nonetheless.

The whole reason why people have such a dislike for it is because they READ the source material and found the show to not resemble it. I mean one of the post you listed pretty much proves that. How can you be so Ignorant to your own Ignorance???

You are quite the defensive one when no one is stress testing the "Whole Reason" which in essence would only be "One Reason" at best that some commenters dislike Watchmen (in your assumption) after viewing maybe 2 episodes? HBO's Watchmen pretty much parallels the Comic series and is very much a re-edited (and as Lindelöf has stated is a Re-Mix) and not a frame by frame panel by panel re-imagining of the Comic-Book series. So if you did READ the series and have consumed the 2 aired episodes you might find the heart of the story to be the same.....

..or you may not.

Reading and comprehension are two different things.

You can't change my mind with ignorant claims and arguments backed up with zero proof or proof that you present on your own that contradicts your own argument.

As I stated I wasn't trying to "change your mind". You very much see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. You don't favor a discussion and exchange you prefer a diatribe. How can HBO shove a show that someone elects to see down anyone's throat?

What did I say that was confrontational? Because I questioned your weak argument? To label everyone is "willfully ignorant" because they didn't share your point of view is easily and obviously fallacious.

Methinks thou doth protest to much, way TOO much. No one labeled everyone as "willfully ignorant", and I ascribed confrontational to you because of the tone of your reply. And if you had read what I said correctly I never challenged anyone to share my POV or even to have a POV different from my own. The strength of my argument or critique is borne out by some of the commenters collapsing most of their angst towards the show to be about Race. Not much different than your own. I don't have a fallacious belief about a certain set of commenters and clearly not ALL commenters. They've stated what they dislike about the series. This discussion is not binary and of course not All or Nothing.

I thought episode two was quite good and offered up more layers to the conspiracy.

Is Will the Hooded Justice?

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

1st you're not discussing the series, the show, the performances, the narrative, the storytelling nor the creativity.

Neither were you when I replied to your post. My reply was directly at what you posted.

Those were just the few I decided to include not that I was doing a definitive survey of all posts from all sources from all commenters from everywhere. Stay tuned with my use of the word ALL.

And even the ones you cherry picked seemed to contradicted your argument. The fact that you read other post and determined that people are "willfully ignorant" only points the fact that your argument is ignorant and your continued defense of it only proves you are Ignorant to your Ignorance. Do you understand how ironic that is?

I wasn't trying to overwhelm you just whelm you.

Cherry picking post that contradict your own argument will always be an epic fail. Just FYI.

And I'm not sure you know what "irony" means or how to use the word to make a point properly in a sentence. Might be that "Uninformed Opinions" are an entitlement for you and probably to you? ....

You calling people "willfully ignorant" when you yourself are the willfully ignorant one is ironic. Understand? And again, you argument of "Uninformed Opinions" carries ZERO proof. Just because you say so, it is. Ignorance is Strength!

As I stated I wasn't trying to "change your mind"....

How can you engage in conversation when you make an obvious Ignorant blanket statement with zero proof to back you up and you don't even correct yourself? And I'm the defensive one? What a joke!

I'm glad to see you walking back your initial post and now putting qualifiers in them. Yet, if I didn't question it, you would've just left it, thus your argument was ALL people that don't agree with you are "willfully ignorant". It's not binary like you said, yet you worded it as such and demeaned the side that disagreed with you. Really, how credible should people take you?

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[–] RolloLee (50) 5 years ago

I think it's more that it's a Watchmen show dealing with race, when the graphic novel and movie aren't about that. It's a bit exasperating that virtually all "geeky" things have some kind of "wokeness" in them, be it replacing established characters with women and/or minorities, or making the story about racism or something ...

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[–] papamihel (1585) 5 years ago

The original novel explored plenty of social issues of the 1980s so that's not a problem per se.
The problem is the lack of subtlety. The show's writers simply do not posses enough talent to create good art so they have to settle for propaganda.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Racism and subtle used together is what they call an oxymoron.

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[–] papamihel (1585) 5 years ago

Only if you value propaganda above art.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Propaganda lies in the eye of the beholder.

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[–] papamihel (1585) 5 years ago

To a certain extent, sure. "Everything is subjective".
But people with brains and any kind of taste should be able to separate one from the other.
It feels to me that lately the marketing and\or editing departments of movie, TV show or even book industries decided that their audience have become less intelligent. Even my favorite fiction authors have somewhat shifted from masterfully interweaving relevant social issues into their prose to shoving them up the readers' throats.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

I feel that it is much too early to tell whether this show is a vehicle to promote an agenda or if it is just a reflection of what is happening in America today. It is only fair to wait until the show is over for that judgement.

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[–] kuku (3510) 5 years ago

All these geeks hating this show due to the fact that it is controversial and deals with racial issues? I knew this show was going to get hate for its dealing with issues of race, but I didn't realize how much hate it was going to get. Some of the comments are extremely unpleasant to read also. I don't know what else to say.

Day 1
- There's tortellini to eat
- Fine
Day 2
- There's tortellini to eat
- Fine
Day 3
- There's tortellini to eat
- Ok... fine
Day 4
- There's tortellini to eat
- Again?
...
...
...
Day 127
- There's tortellini to eat
- Sigh...
...
...
...
Day 3927
- There's tortellini to eat
- Fuck off.
- All these geeks hating this meal due to the fact that it includes Italian food? I knew this meal was going to get hate for including tortellini, but I didn't realize how much hate it was going to get. Some of the answers are extremely unpleasant to hear also. I don't know what else to say.

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

Nice - if it was gross tortellini stuffed with trans fat being presented as an elegant, healthy meal it'd be an even better comparison.

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[–] papamihel (1585) 5 years ago

It's not the 1950s. What's so controversial about exploring racism? Americans bring it up in 2 out of 3 movies or TV shows.
It would have been controversial if it dared to suggest that people of European descent are not the only members of our species capable of racial prejudice.

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[–] RolloLee (50) 5 years ago

It's not the 1950s. What's so controversial about exploring racism?

Because it's not the 1950s. Racism is small enough to be nonexistent in the west, so there's no need to keep drudging it up and "exploring" it.

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[–] Goliard (1413) 5 years ago

LMAO. . .Where in "the West" do you live?

Please believe: Racism is alive and well. To claim it's "Small enough to be nonexistent" is either willfully ignorant, or purposely disingenuous. Endof.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

OMG, this is what Trump lovers want you to believe. Racism is more active now than it was when I was a kid. It is really bad now.

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[–] raymondoz2007 (2079) 5 years ago

Yes racism is alive and well..I.E. The knock out game

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[–] Rorikon (16659) 5 years ago

Isn't that a black thing? At least, from what I have seen, it has been mostly if not only black suspects that do this. Ever heard of flash rob? Instead of a flash mob, it's just a large group of 'usually' blacks that run into a store and steal as much shit as possible then run away in all directions.

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[–] NorrinRad (5120) 5 years ago

In the USA Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated in 1968. Nelson Mandela was arrested in 1964 and Apartheid formerly ended in the early 1990's. Racism has been replaced in many instances with Colorism which has and had always been a part of Color/Race conscious societies.

Because it's not the 1950s. Racism is small enough to be nonexistent in the west, so there's no need to keep drudging it up and "exploring" it.

Affirmative action - 1964, Voting Rights 1965. Fair Housing 1968. Watt's riot, 1965.

Anti-miscegenation laws or miscegenation laws are laws that enforce racial segregation at the level of marriage and intimate relationships by criminalizing interracial marriage and sometimes also sex between members of different races. Anti-miscegenation laws were first introduced in North America (USA) from the late seventeenth century onwards by several of the Thirteen Colonies, and subsequently by many US states and US territories and remained in force in many US states until 1967.

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[–] papamihel (1585) 5 years ago

I'm pretty sure "Colorism" is when my daughter refuses to wear anything but pink and purple.
What you are talking about is regular xenophobia which is a norm for pretty much every culture in the world. Even in a country with homogeneous population people find a reason to dislike the folks from the next village.

But never mind. Of course racism exists and Africans (together with the Jews) are at the top of every real hate-crime survey all over the civilized world. But 1. It doesn't mean every TV show\movie has to deal with the issue and 2. When they do can't the authors use a finer creative tool than a sledge hammer?

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[–] Geff (453) 5 years ago

I didn't mind Black panther dealing with race because of the context. But, contextually it doesn't make sense for Watchmen to be about race.

I don't mind the show. It just shouldn't be called Watchmen. Why not invent something new?

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Feels like Watchmen to me, just in a different universe.

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[–] Geff (453) 5 years ago

Have you even read Watchmen?

1) It's not in a different universe.

2) Watchmen does not lend itself to multiple universes like other bigger comic book serieses.

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[–] PorkChop (130) 5 years ago

stfu

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[–] Rorikon (16659) 5 years ago

Was the comics based on it? If so then I no issues with the show. If they just added this crap to stay 'woke', then yeah, I can see why people would be pissed. Inserting political agendas into comic book hero shows is a no show. I haven't watched it yet but I hear it's all about white people = bad, people of color = bastion of heroes.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Watchmen comics have always been political. I think you really need to watch the show before you comment on it. Don't listen to others. Make up your own mind.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

Being that this is supposed to be a sequel to the graphic novel, pray tell how the ending of the novel translates organically to the beginning of this show?

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

The Watchmen comic had nothing to do with race.

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[–] exatera (3947) 5 years ago

You do realize that they had to go with something that would be a little more applicable today than the Cold War, right? Hopefully?..

Nor can you claim with any certainty that the show is about racism, full stop. If anything I think the racial history is the backdrop for the actual story.

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

How does that make sense, when racism was more applicable during the Cold War era than it is today?

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

They had to go with something a little more applicable today than the Cold War? That's your reason? Seriously???

As Maul said, the novel had NOTHING to do with racism, so does it make sense that this is an organic transition to the show? If you think so, pray elaborate.

Did you even read the novel?

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Some people just hate when anything about race is brought up in movies or television. They just want it all buried as if it doesn't exist. The fact that Trump is President just shows that it still exists.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

Instead of addressing the argument specifically, you just make a generalized blanket statement which answers nothing. It's answers like this is why nothing ever gets done because instead of opening yourself up to a discussion, you just insult the other side and walk away. Very grown up of you.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

I am talking about a specific segment of the population here. Yes, I am insulting people them for their bigotry. If you are unable to spot a true bigot, then you may need to inform yourself better about the history of America.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

If you are talking about a specific segment of the population, why don't you address that specific segment directly rather than give a generalized blanket statement? It is completely in your control to choose your words and direct them more specifically.

How are you spotting bigots on these posts exactly? Perhaps I'm not as "informed" as you in regards to the history of America, but until I see some proof of your prowess on this board, I have no faith to take you for your word.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

I am not necessarily spotting bigots only in these posts, but have spotted them in other places also. I spot bigots by the words they use and the sentiment they express. People who are objecting so to the issues being presented in Watchmen are, for some, showing their true colors. Why are they so vehemently against the subject matter that the writers have chosen to present in this program? Are these people not comfortable with seeing themselves as the villains? Do they wish that it just wasn't discussed? If people don't like the show, then they don't like it, but the strong reactions I have seen about the content is quite disturbing.

Oh and as far as prowess on this board, let's be real here. This is a place where trolls hang out and tell each other to stfu. It's not the New York Times editorial section.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

The reason why people are so "vehemently" against the subject matter in this instance, is that it has nothing to do with the source material. It is no different than labeling a movie a Star Wars story and inserting the subject matter of climate change.

By inserting a political agenda into the source material that has nothing to do with the source material is a disservice to it and the integrity of the original creators. Dave Gibbons should be ashamed he associated with this show.

The people that know the source material and watched the show expecting Watchmen and instead got what they got, is there disappointment not understandable to you, or must they all be bigots because of their disappointment?

You said you can pick out true bigots and you are insulting them here on the boards. I'm questioning how you can pick out bigots based on their posts alone.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Well I can tell that you are not bigoted just by the way you phrase things and also how you have valid points on why the show isn't what you thought it would be. I suppose it all has to do with how the posts are worded and how outraged the poster is. I know people who are really into Watchmen and even though they have been cautious about certain aspects of the plot, they still are optimistic that the show will turn out better than some fans think. I have really enjoyed the first two episodes and will continue to watch.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

Can I not be a bigot that chooses my words carefully in my posts? Thus, how are you really going to know a bigot from a post alone?

It is okay for you to like the show for what it is and you are more than welcome to praise it for what it is.

I don't know if you've read the source material and if you have, can you state for the record here that the source material has nothing to do with racism at all? If you haven't read the source material, which I hope you have, then you were criticizing others based off of ignorance. FYI, that's not a good thing.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

I have read the source material and I still like the show. I won't argue with you anymore. Have a good day.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

So having read the source material, you cannot simply admit the fact that the graphic novel has nothing to do with racism? Why is that so difficult?

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[–] exatera (3947) 5 years ago

I did, but this really isn't an interesting topic of discussion to me, forget I said anything.

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

how many poc were in the comic?

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[–] thenewnexus (1906) 5 years ago

I think In the Recent comics A Black Man became Rorschach

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

Uh, I don't know - I didn't count. Nor do I care. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The focus and topics of the comic had nothing to do with race, like I already stated. Are you disputing that fact?

Does the specific "poc" count of a piece of media mean it's focused on racial issues? Are you literally insane? I think you are.

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

how could the "topics and focus" have to do with race if only one race is represented?

if all the characters were white what would it have to say about race?

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

Wow. You really are something else. I think I'd have a better time conversing with a flat Earther. I really don't even know what to say to this insane drivel.

I don't even know what the hell you're implying here. That every piece of media has to be "diverse", or... what exactly? That every piece of media HAS to focus on race, and a specific "poc" count is somehow related to this? What the fuck are you even talking about here?

Some media is going to have more white people, some media is going to have more black people. Some media is going to have more Asian people. What the fuck does that have to do with Watchmen, and the fact that it's not focused on racial issues? Have you even read it for fuck's sake? Why are you so obsessed with race?

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

im saying by being predominately all white, watchmen by definition cannot be saying anything about race by virtue of there being no other races represented

now that the show is doing that, ppl have a problem that its not sticking to the source material, an all white comic book

and justifying that by saying the comic wasnt about race

when it couldnt have been about race precisely because it was all white

so in other words, fans of the show wanted an all white tv show like they had with the movie

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[–] maul (1535) 5 years ago

"im saying by being predominately all white, watchmen by definition cannot be saying anything about race by virtue of there being no other races represented"

All-white, all-black, mixed - IT DOESN'T MATTER. The topics presented are NOT ABOUT RACE. The amount of "poc" in a piece of media does not dictate whether it's about race or not, or whether it can be about race. It's clear that ALL you think about is race, and you look for it in every facet of everything - and quite frankly it's disturbing.

"now that the show is doing that, ppl have a problem that its not sticking to the source material, an all white comic book. and justifying that by saying the comic wasnt about race. when it couldnt have been about race precisely because it was all white"

THE TOPICS HAVE CHANGED. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NON-WHITE PEOPLE BEING IN IT. NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RACIAL MAKEUP UP THE SHOW (except people like you). THE ORIGINAL WATCHMEN, REGARDLESS OF HOW "DIVERSE" THE CAST WAS, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH RACIAL ISSUES.

The original Watchmen could have had half the cast be black, and it would have changed nothing about the topics at hand.

Why do you think that the "poc" count has absolutely anything to do with this? Because you're insane. That's why. Because you can't look past race and see human beings ffs.

You can have all sorts of mixed varieties of races, and the topics at hand can have nothing to do with, or everything to do, with race. Your warped and regressive view of the world however thinks that people need to be segregated and labeled all of the time by the color of their skin, and everything should be based on that. It's disgusting, really. I'm exhausted with this nonsense.

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

the only way race could not affect the "topics" of the material is if you believe that the perception of the material would not have been different with a more diverse cast

had rorschach been an asian female instead of a white male, his perception would not have affected the popularity and demand for adherence to the source material in any way?

or are you saying perception has nothing to do with the release of material for public consumption?

either way the show is going to be what it is regardless of how some ppl feel about it negatively

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

im saying by being predominately all white, watchmen by definition cannot be saying anything about race by virtue of there being no other races represented

now that the show is doing that, ppl have a problem that its not sticking to the source material, an all white comic book

and justifying that by saying the comic wasnt about race

when it couldnt have been about race precisely because it was all white

First of all, thank you for acknowledging that the source material had nothing to do with racism.

so in other words, fans of the show wanted an all white tv show like they had with the movie

Wow! Of all the things. Think of the ending of the novel. Of all the things the "writers" could've chosen as a starting point, they chose....um...white supremacy! Yeah. That's an organic transition from the novel. 🙄

Pray tell how this makes sense.

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

in the sense that the conservative values character inspires right wing predominately white supremacists over the course of several years?

yea thats pretty organic

would you have preferred a war against aquatic animals in retaliation?

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

What you stated was nothing more than an ass pull.

You read the source material, right? You know what happened at the end, right? Now tell me how we got from there to here. Here's your second chance. Dazzle everybody with your feats of logic and creativity. Pray elaborate as detailed as possible.

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[–] username2k13 (65) 5 years ago

how about not

you dont like what they did write hbo a sternly worded letter

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYaOJdVbK4c

What else is new? 🙄

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[–] dmac8 (5050) 5 years ago

It lives everywhere -- but I can understand a legit disdain from some Watchmen fans who don't like that Lindelof has decided to make the core of this show about racism and the police. You need not be a racist to feel that way.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

Of course not, but there are lots of others who don't like it because of the anti-racist sentiment in the story.

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[–] dmac8 (5050) 5 years ago

That's a little different than your initial statement. You said you knew the show would get hate from geeks b/c of "its dealing with issues of race". Hate for that reason is not the equivalent of racism. The net you cast is much wider than your target -- unless you're making some assumptions about anyone who dares to criticize it.

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

I didn't mean all geeks hate the show because of the racial component, but there is a segment of geekdom that dislikes it just because it brings up the timely issue of race.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 5 years ago

Another qualifier to your original post. Backpedal much?

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[–] modica (4169) 5 years ago

[deleted]