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Director Speaks Out: ‘What Bothers You So Much About a Black Cleopatra?’

posted a year ago by Keelai (32177)
145 replies | jump to latest

"It is more likely that Cleopatra looked like our actor than Elizabeth Taylor ever did."

"Born in Iran, I am a Persian, and Cleopatra’s heritage has been attributed at one time or another to the Greeks, the Macedonians and the Persians. The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West Asian’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years. Cleopatra was eight generations away from these Ptolemaic ancestors, making the chance of her being white somewhat unlikely. After 300 years, surely, we can safely say Cleopatra was Egyptian. She was no more Greek or Macedonian than Rita Wilson or Jennifer Aniston. Both are one generation from Greece.

The idea that people had gotten it so incredibly wrong before — historically, from Theda Bara to Monica Bellucci, and recently, with Angelina Jolie and Gal Gadot in the running to play her — meant we had to get it even more right. The hunt was on to find the right performer to bring Cleopatra into the 21st century.

Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white? Her proximity to whiteness seems to give her value, and for some Egyptians it seems to really matter.

After much hang-wringing and countless auditions, we found in Adele James an actor who could convey not only Cleopatra’s beauty, but also her strength. What the historians can confirm is that it is more likely that Cleopatra looked like Adele than Elizabeth Taylor ever did.

The HBO series “Rome” portrayed one of the most intelligent, sophisticated and powerful women in the world as a sleazy, dissipated drug addict, yet Egypt didn’t seem to mind. Where was the outrage then? But portraying her as Black? Well.

Perhaps, it’s not just that I’ve directed a series that portrays Cleopatra as Black, but that I have asked Egyptians to see themselves as Africans, and they are furious at me for that.

So, was Cleopatra Black? We don’t know for sure, but we can be certain she wasn’t white like Elizabeth Taylor. We need to have a conversation with ourselves about our colorism, and the internalized white supremacy that Hollywood has indoctrinated us with.

Most of all, we need to realize that Cleopatra’s story is less about her than it is about who we are."
https://variety.com/2023/tv/global/queen-cleopatra-black-netflix-egypt-1235590708/

[–] liscarkat (16759) a year ago

What an idiot. Was Cleopatra black? We do know, for sure, that she wasn't. Was she white like Elizabeth Taylor? Being of northern Greek ancestry, she very well could have been. "Cleopatra's story is less about her than it is about who we are"? What the fuck does that mean? Nothing but bullshit.

[–] DeckardB26354 (979) a year ago

Correct liscarkat, and WOKE bullshit at that, which is what Hollywoke is all about and has been for fucking years.

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

That statement really does sound like typical, artsy-fartsy, pretentious bullshit, doesn't it?

[–] nufsaid16 (642) a year ago

No, it dosen't. First of all, the term "woke"---which was created by African-Americans decades ago---simply means to be aware f social injustice going on around you and in the world--not much different from its original meaning. That's a completely different subject, and has nothing to do with the subject of Cleopatra. As a black person, I've heard that about Cleopatra for years, so that's nothing new. The thing is, the Egyptians protesting this series so damn hard before it even came on---meaning they're never even seen it---need to ask themselves why the hell it bothers them so damn much that Cleopatra is being depicted as black.

I mean, Egypt itself is part of a continent (Africa) which has a majority black population, so why the hell do they have such a problem with the fact that Cleopatra could have had some black African heritage? Especially since her family had already been in Egypt 300 years by the time she was born. There's also the fact that even though her father was of Greek descent, no one actually knows what ethnicity her mother or her grandmother were. So, it's a possibility that they could have been something other then Greek, and maybe black. To me, this whole throwing a fit about her being black is really ridiculous, and smacks of racism. Why else the emphasis on her Greek heritage, when she was literally born and raised in Egypt, and identified as Egyptian? I call BS on that---they're just being racist, that's all.

[–] nufsaid16 (642) a year ago

Also, why the hell are these Egyptians slamming the series----which I remind you, none of them have even seen yet---so focused on Cleopatra's Greek heritage, when they aren't even white themselves? Here's some articles that give some nuance to this whole subject, instead of the knee-jerk reactions you trolls here always have to anything you don't understand: https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/black-cleopatra-netflix-egypt-controversial-why

https://slate.com/culture/2023/05/queen-cleopatra-black-netflix-show-race-history.html

Basically, this whole backlash against Cleopatra being depicted as black is nothing but racism. Since Cleopatra came from a majority black continent, it's not hard to imagine that some of her family may have intermarried with some of their black African neighbors. After all, Egypt is an African country---she is not being "erased" because she's being depicted as non-white. There's also the fact that the concept of race in her time was completely different from our current concepts of race. Here's an article which talks about the long history of racism in the Middle East media, and how black people are shown in racist stereotypical ways in it:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/racism-middle-east-arab-film-tv-opinion

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

Yes it really does. To say "Cleopatra's story is less about her than it is about who we are"? is, as I said, pretentious nonsense. Cleopatra is not a fictional character, she was a historical figure, a real person with her own story, her own life with its own meaning to her. I am sure if she could be brought back to life, she would laugh at the idea that her life was somehow about you or me, or anyone else alive today.

The reason people have such a problem with the idea that Cleopatra could have had some black African heritage is because all the evidence we have -- and there's actually quite a lot -- indicates that she didn't, making attempts to claim she did historical revisionism. Cultural appropriation in other words. And this is worse than wearing dreadlocks, or a cheongsam dress, or opening a burrito stand in Portland, OR; this is stealing someone else's history to advance a false narrative. Egyptians have their own culture, and they are not black, sub-Saharan Africans.

And to answer your question about why Egyptians are slamming the series, it really isn't hard to figure out. I don't think they appreciate being erased from their own history in order to cater to the sensibilities of race-obsessed, woke American leftists.

[–] Kowalski (60803) a year ago

HEY...DARREN...WHEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT SOMEONE IS SAYING...MAYBE YOU SHOULD SHUT UP INSTEAD OF RAMBLING ON AND ON BASED ON A POINT THAT ONLY EXISTS BECAUSE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND.

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

I understand what she's staying just fine. Why don't you fuck off you stupid, puerile, annoying little pissant? You're not nearly as clever as you imagine, and your all-caps schtick is beyond tiresome at this point. If you had anything interesting to say, you could communicate it like and adult.

[–] Kowalski (60803) a year ago

YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND...CLEARLY...NICE TRY WITH THE "FANCY" WORDS THOUGH.😘

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

Now you are just repeating yourself. You have nothing interesting or intelligent to say. You're for the ignore list.

[–] Kowalski (60803) a year ago

GOOD...I ENJOY BEING ON THE IGNORE LIST OF SUCH CLEAR CUT DOUCHEBAGES SUCH AS YOURSELF...I AM NOW YOUR SHADOW...YOU MAY SEE A GLIMPSE OF MY PRESENCE HERE AND THERE BUT MOSTLY I JUST LURKING BEHIND YOU...SAYING ANYTHING I LIKE WITH NO CHANCE OF HAVING TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

[–] Bossdog677 (1457) a year ago

Here we go with the Lady Ghostbusters Defense "the Egyptians didn't watch the movie so they have no right to an opinion.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Unlikely white since her family lived in black and brown Egypt for 300 years. The likely tomb of her racially-mixed sister was found.

Ancient Egyptians didn't have the same issues about race as present-day people.

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

By that rationale there should be no black people in the USA by now.

That 12% would be "unlikely black since they lived in brown and white USA for 300 years".

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Thank you for proving my point!

The overwhelming majority of black Americans have white ancestry including the light-skinned actresss, the light-skinned Jada and her light-skinned husband.

Realistically, Cleopatra should look like the actress.

Embrace the truth!

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

Yeah, Wesley Snipes, for example...white as a ghost.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Once again, you prove my point!

Wesley Snipes' kids are all light-skinned:
https://starstudds.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Alaafia-Jehu-T-Snipes.webp

BTW, there are Africans who are much darker than Snipes as well as lighter. Africans are racially mixed in the diaspora as well as on the continent. There are no pure races!

Realistically, people in that part of the world thousands of years ago had protective melanin.

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

I see, so because Wesley Snipes married someone of a different race, and his kids, not Snipes himself, are light-skinned, the overwhelming majority of black Americans have white ancestry.

I am glad I could help you prove your point.

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

I'm not with the We Wuzz Kangz crew, but he's right about more or less all African-Americans having some degree of European ancestry. Autosomal, YDNA and MtDNA tests have proved it

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

"Some degree of European ancestry" does not equal "unlikely black" though.

[–] Krieg (45) 8 months ago

Wesley Snipes first wife is black as well. Lighter black, but black. She is from South Africa.

[–] ProgsReturn (1805) a year ago

That's because Hollywood wasn't rewriting history back then.

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

Simply not true. The Ptolemies were notorious for interbreeding with each other to keep their royal line untainted with non-royal stock -- Cleopatra VII's mother is not known with certainty, but scholars believe it was more than likely Cleopatra V, the sister or cousin wife of Ptolemy XII Auletes (Cleopatra VII's father). Cleopatra VII was the first Ptolemaic monarch in all that 300 years to even bother learning to speak Egyptian; this is NOT strong evidence for her intermingling.

The Ptolemies had, earlier, intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty, so she likely had a little Person or Sogdian ancestry, as well as the Macedonian. According to classicist Michael Grant Cleopatra probably did not have so much as a drop of Egyptian blood in her veins, because even after 300 of ruling in Egypt, there is no known Egyptian wife of a Ptolemaic ruler. Not one. And it's also unlikely that Cleopatra was illegitimate, because Augustus, in his civil war with Mark Antony over control of Rome, threw every attack he could think of against her in the propaganda phase of his war effort, but bastardy was not one of them. He certainly would have added that charge to the list if there is any evidence for it, so we have no evidence that Cleopatra might have acquired Egyptian DNA from that means either.

As Dr. Zahi Hawass has noted recently, Cleopatra was not black.

But I do find it amusing that Afrocentric leftists, who are always so quick to cry "cultural appropriation," are really working hard to appropriate the shit out of Egyptian culture and history. Guess it's okay when SJWs do it.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

No. She wasn't white like Taylor. Her family was in Egypt for 300 years which is plenty of time for intermarriage with the Afro-Asiatic Egyptians. The likely tomb of her sister or 1/2 sister had a skeleton with racial mixture. No reason for Cleopatra to not also be mixed after 300 years.

Most Greeks have more melanin than Northern Europeans which makes their complexion closer to the light-complexioned black actress.

[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) a year ago

Are *you* Greek Keelai?

I'm betting you're a fucking hand-wringing WASP (although no doubt you'll lie and tell me otherwise, and try to confect some more approrpiately 'oppressed' backstory for yourself). Unlike ME, you don't have Greek ancestry, so perhaps you shouldn't tell those of us who do have Greek ancestry (and in my case have very pale skin), what are skin complexion is. It's very presumptuous and rude of foreigners, like you and this 'documentary' filmmaker, to tell other people what our identities are. In fact, one might say that it's rather imperialist. HOW DARE YOU. 😠

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

"I'm of Portuguese and Irish ancestry, but I was born in the UK, so I feel like a Brit both technically *and* culturally even though my mother is an immigrant, however dark and swarthy I may look to many but one of my family names is Greek, and my mother's Portuguese family is believed to have Greek roots."
https://moviechat.org/tt27528139/Queen-Cleopatra/6446c23d430d175bdd4f49c3/Greek-vs-White?reply=644c06c87f73f66e26870fc0

You're full of malarkey!

Cleopatra's family hadn't lived in Greece for 300 years!!! Unlikely her family lived in a black and brown country without intermarriage with Egyptians. Her sister or half-sister was racially mixed. Do the math!

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

See my reply above.

Yes, there was plenty of time for intermarriage, but the thing is, we have her (mostly complete) geneology, and there is no record of their intermarriage with Egyptians. 300 years is plenty of time for the Ptolemies to learn the Egyptian language too, but apart from Cleopatra -- the very last of their dynasty -- they never did.

[–] Towelie_Towel (1723) a year ago

"I have asked Egyptians to see themselves as Africans, and they are furious at me for that."

What a stupid statement...
What does it matter if Egypt is in Africa, Asia or Europe?
Egypt is its own country and has its own very rich culture.

It doesn't need these "hand me downs" of idiot woke Americans, that think that Africa is all one and the same and that by casting black people randomly is doing them a huge favour.

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

Yup. And it's this same woke mindset that leads woke, white liberals to try and impose "Latinx" on Hispanics who want no part of it, and quite rightly protest that the word doesn't even work in their language.

If these people could only see themselves. They are so patronizing it really is breathtaking.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Hispanics in the LGBTQI community created the term Latinx - not white Liberals.

I prefer Latine which is used more in Spanish and flows better.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/latine-vs-latinx-what-young-people-think

[–] Darren (1159) a year ago

I prefer Latino and Latina. The idea of insisting on gender-neutral adjectives in a gendered language where every noun is either masculine or feminine is inherently stupid.

[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) a year ago

You're NOT Hispanic Keelai. Stop trying to impose your liberal white privilege on other people. It's colonialist, imperialist and extremely arrogant.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/many-latinos-say-latinx-offends-or-bothers-them-here-s-ncna1285916

"In November 2015, the Phoenix, Swarthmore College’s student newspaper, published a widely shared rebuke of the term. Student authors Gilbert Guerra and Gilbert Orbea described “Latinx” as a “blatant form of linguistic imperialism”—and claimed it was an attempt to force American ideals onto people living in Latin America because it wasn’t tailored to native Spanish speakers. Though the letter “x” in Spanish can take on a pronunciation similar to the English “x,” it can also take on an “s” sound, or an “h” sound, as with the Mexican state of Oaxaca. “By replacing o’s and a’s with x’s, the word ‘Latinx’ is rendered laughably incomprehensible to any Spanish speaker without some fluency in English,” they wrote. “It does not provide a gender-neutral alternative for Spanish-speaking non-binary individuals and thus excludes them.” (And even English speakers say everything from la-TEEN-ex to LAT-in-ex to la-TEENKS.)

Writer Hector Luis Alamo echoed the frustration in an opinion piece for the media outlet Latino Rebels titled “The X-ing of Language: The Case AGAINST ‘Latinx.’” Alamo, an Afro-Latino whose family hails from Honduras and who is the founder of Enclave magazine, argued that the term constitutes a “bulldozing of Spanish.” It’s “an academic word, and that group always thinks it knows what’s best for the rest of us,” Alamo told me via email. “Activists and people who want to appear liberal have adopted the word (and are calling out people for not using it).” It’s a critique that has also been leveled at terms like “cisgender” and “nonbinary”—all were devised and propagated by elite academic circles—but “Latinx” carries the added whiff of imperialism."

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

"Hay muchas otras opciones para la autoidentificación además de latino, latinx e hispano. Está Latin@, popular en la década de 1990 como un precursor de género expansivo de Latinx. Está Latine , un término de género neutral defendido por los detractores de Latinx, principalmente por su mejor adherencia a la gramática española.

“Con respecto a los términos más recientes propuestos para abordar la equidad de género, prefiero Latine sobre Latinx”, dice Castro.

También existe la opción de abandonar por completo la clasificación racial y, en cambio, centrarse en la geografía.

Cuando se les preguntó su preferencia entre hispano, latino y latinx, la gran mayoría, el 57 por ciento, respondió: "No importa"."
https://www-bu-edu.translate.goog/articles/2022/why-is-latinx-still-used-if-hispanics-hate-the-term/?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=es&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=rq

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

FYI, Egypt is in Africa. It matters. Ancient Egyptians were an Afro-Asiatic people - not white European.

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

Cleopatra wasn't even alive during the time of Ancient Egypt.

[–] Towelie_Towel (1723) a year ago

I'm not American, so it's pretty obvious to me that Egypt is in Africa. Everyone knows this.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Not really.

[–] ProgsReturn (1805) a year ago

So all Africans look alike to you.

[–] JFZ (1459) 8 months ago

Wrong retard. Mummies DNA shows Greek genes.

[–] Corbell (8828) a year ago

WHy do you need her to be black?

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Why do you need her to be white which is completely unrealistic?

White people are prone to skin cancer and wouldn't thrive in Ancient Egypt. People in that part of the world have more melanin for a practical reason.

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

Yeah, cuz the Arabs and Iranians (Iran being home to the Lut Desert, hottest place on Earth according to NASA) haven't been a thing for at least a millennium.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Bad example. Arabs and Iranians are racially mixed. Both countries are in Asia.

Arabs:
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3037f82710e46223f3500771055cfdb9-pjlq

Iranians:
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-469b1cddb53b0b1c3ce04db5c76aa344-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1a0cc707042a4e5bf308f60249b167e0-lq

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

Are Arabs and Iranians black?

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Some are.

[–] LoveCatsHateDogs (1549) a year ago

...and is "Arab" a country?

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Saudi Arabia is.

[–] Corbell (8828) a year ago

You wokies are the ones making films to support your NEED for her to be black. I'm just commenting on how strange that is.

She's greek. We have statues and murals. NOthing indicates blackness.

[–] SweetTooth43 (1804) a year ago

You wish you were white, we get it. Move on.

[–] JFZ (1459) 8 months ago

Whites, aka Greeks build up Egypt and the entire area, you fucking dunce. You fucking idiots dont own an entire continent, and you did absolute shit there to claim it. Stop fucking stealing. Stop appropriating everything. Actually do something, like read a damn book instead of using movies and music as historical documents. You're all like the idiots from Thermia in Galaxy Quest.

[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) a year ago

I already posted this Keelai. 🙄😠

https://moviechat.org/tt27528139/Queen-Cleopatra/6443a150151e4109dacc2bb0/Utter-Nonsense

Do please pay attention. It's otherwise very disrespectful.

'Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white? Her proximity to whiteness seems to give her value, and for some Egyptians it seems to really matter.'

No, not 'value'. Authenticity and accuracy. And I'm not certain that an Iranian should be telling Egyptians how to think of their own people.

'The HBO series “Rome” portrayed one of the most intelligent, sophisticated and powerful women in the world as a sleazy, dissipated drug addict, yet Egypt didn’t seem to mind. Where was the outrage then? But portraying her as Black? Well.'

Well, there you go. Perhaps it's not an issue of 'racism', but an issue of *accuracy* and *authenticity*. Cleopatra was a foreign occupier and a tyrrant, an adulterer and a murderer, but she was NOT Black.

'So, was Cleopatra Black? We don’t know for sure, but we can be certain she wasn’t white like Elizabeth Taylor. We need to have a conversation with ourselves about our colorism, and the internalized white supremacy that Hollywood has indoctrinated us with.'

"We don't know for sure", so, let's make it up, right? It seems the 'documentary' filmmaker is more concerned about presenting a certain agenda than actually being accurate to the *truth* and *facts*. Who cares about those things, when you can present the myth, right? And indoctrinate and condition people with lies, that serve the 'right' narrative...

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

She openly admitted that it is a political statement making Cleopatra black ...

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Cleopatra's family was in Egypt for 300 years. They weren't Nazis who believed in racial purity. Egyptians were an Afro-Asiatic people created from dozens of different ethnic groups. It's realistic that Cleo was racially-mixed like her sister or half-sister. And like you Portuguese, Irish may have Greek ancestry person.

[–] Batfleck (1538) 8 months ago

They weren't Nazis who believed in racial purity.

meanwhile in reality of what happened

In terms of marriage, the Ptolemies were exceptionally insular. The family practiced a tradition of inbreeding and sibling marriage, which they appear to have adopted from earlier ruling Egyptian pharaonic dynasties.

When the Ptolemies did marry outside their own family, these marriages were typically made with members of the other Greek royal families who held dominion over the now fragmented parts of Alexander the Great’s empire.

Cleopatra had very few documented ancestors who were not of Greek descent. The most notable was through a previous marriage between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids, one of the other powerful Greek successor states.

retard detected.

[–] Stratego (29365) a year ago

"The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West Asian’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years."

Okay, so why isn't she portrayed by an actress who looks Macedonian Greek/West Asian instead of black?

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

Because the ignorant director initially wrote "The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West African’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years." and probably assumed that they were black.

Someone pointed out the error and they corrected it.

Most likely they did exactly zero research ...

[–] Stratego (29365) a year ago

Holy shit, how does one not this when making a documentary on the subject?

It's nice she now realizes the Seleucid Empire was West Asian, but someone should inform her that the Seleucid dynasty was also of Macedonian Greek extraction, just like Cleopatra's family.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

They did plenty of research. You need to read history books instead of watching Tarzan movies. Egyptians painted themselves with brown and tan skin tones, thick lips and broad noses.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/UYVmBQJyPSKc3g9fzRr7UZ-1200-80.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJPoNVyj8XUG3psS5qR9VkrGiBsWxBsXdOxI3sH-2kb3-zFxB8TiVEnrs55difxRguNPo&usqp=CAU

Greek historians like Herodotus already desribed them as haveing black skin. "Herodotus says the Egyptians (and Colchians) are dark-skinned (melagchroes) and wooly-haired (oulotriches)."

Put away your white supremacist indoctrination.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

Are you that stupid??

We are talking about Cleopatra and the Seleucid dynasty, what has ANYTHING that you said to do with what we are talking?

Put away your deflective strawman and black supremacy.

[–] SweetTooth43 (1804) a year ago

Are you jealous you're not white Keelai?

[–] HarveyManFredSin (4877) a year ago

No, white liberals like Keelai revel in their white privilege and entitled imperialist attitudes, which include lecturing foreign nations, and POC, like Latinos and Egyptians, about their *own* history.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

I'm afraid he is black, racist and a black supremacist.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

You're projecting.

I read history books and I don't fear truth.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

You don't read history books, obviously and the truth scares the shit out of you.

Like the truth that Cleopatra was not black. Are you ready to accept THE TRUTH?

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

300 years in Egypt - not Greece. She was probably racially-mixed like her sister.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

300 years of intermixing greek families.

Based on her representations (coins, pictures, sculpture) she was NOT mixed.

1: That which you talk about is not her sister. Arsinoe died around 25 years old, the skeleton they found IN AN UNMARKED tomb belongs to a 15 years old girl.
2: Cleopatra's mother (Cleopatra V) died years before Arsinoe was born so most likely they didn't have the same mother. So even if Arsinoe was mixed (which we don't know).

You argue that she was black (now you switched to mixed) only because you desperately want/need her to be black - and that's because you are a black supremacist.

[–] Batfleck (1538) 8 months ago

keelais a liar and most hated member on Moviechat

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

Racist, black supremacist views.

"Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white?"

Maybe because that's the historical truth and you're making a documentary???

WHY do you need to paint her black when she was not? No need to answer, it's obvious: racism.

"Perhaps, it’s not just that I’ve directed a series that portrays Cleopatra as Black, but that I have asked Egyptians to see themselves as Africans, and they are furious at me for that."

More racism and ignorance. OF COURSE that all Africans must be black, right? RIGHT?

"So, was Cleopatra Black? We don’t know for sure,"

We actually do, with more than 90% accuracy that she wasn't black. Portraits, descriptions, coins, etc etc.

And that line in the trailer "I don't care what they told you in school Cleopatra is black" reeks of ignorance and racism. It basically translates to "I don't care what the historical truth is, Cleopatra is my race".

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Egyptians were Afro-Asiatic. A mix of black Africans and the Asiatic people from the North. If you're not blind, all you have to do is look at their artwork. They painted themselves with brown and tan skin.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

Cleopatra is NOT Egyptian by ethnicity you imbecile. She is Greek.

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND that? Or is your black supremacist mind so blinded that you just repeat some nonsense maybe maybe someone gets your deflection as truth?

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Her family hadn't lived in Greece for 300 years. Foreigners commonly married Egyptian women. Her sister was racially-mixed as were Cleopatra.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

300 years of intermixing Greek families. It is documented that they heavily intermarried or they mixed with another Greek family, the Seleucid dynasty which ruled in Persia.

Based on her representations (coins, pictures, sculpture) she was NOT mixed.

1: That which you talk about is not her sister. Arsinoe died around 25 years old, the skeleton they found IN AN UNMARKED tomb belongs to a 15 years old girl.
2: Cleopatra's mother (Cleopatra V) died years before Arsinoe was born so most likely they didn't have the same mother. So even if Arsinoe was mixed (which we don't know).

You argue that she was black (now you switched to mixed) only because you desperately want/need her to be black - and that's because you are a black supremacist.

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

Why is she mentioning Gal Gadot, who's an Ashkenazi Jew?
The Ashkenazi Jews are basically half Levantine Middle Eastern, half European in ancestry. Does Gal Gadot look Polish?

Levantines are intermediate between ancient Egyptians, Irano-Mesopotamians and ancient South-East Europeans.
The European ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews is part Greco-Roman, part north European.
This makes her a great candidate, appearance-wise, for a historical figure who was of north Greek, Irano-Mesopotamian(Seleucid) and possibly Egyptian ancestry.

[–] Keelai (32177) a year ago

Ancient Egyptians are African. Not European nor Arab (Levantine). Arabs invaded Egypt in 700 AD long after its foundational period.

Interestingly, the invaders (Arabs) are currently oppressing historical Egyptians whose ancestors lived there for thousands of years while attempting to pretend Arabs were Ancient Egyptians.

You need to open history books and read them. If you prefer youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/live/S_DD4nmyoss?feature=share&t=1121

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

I'm an anthropologist. YOU need to open and read history books that weren't written by nationalistic charlatans.

Why are you equalling Levantine with Arab?
Arabs are from the Peninsula.
The indigenous peoples of Levant spoke Canaanite languages in the south and Ugaritic and Eblaite in the north.

If you even knew the basics of human history, you'd know that there has always been migrations. All the peoples are connected in some ways.
Ancient Balkan peoples were intermediate between West Anatolians and Central Europeans.
Ancient Mesopotamians were intermediate between Levantines and Peninsular Iranian peoples. Etc,

Africa is an enormous continent. The north and south have almost nothing in common.
Africa also shares landmass with Asia, which means that a north-east African country like Egypt has bigger ties to south-west Asia than to countries south of the vast Sahara desert.
The roots of Egyptian civilization lie in the agricultural revolution that took place in Middle East. It reached Egypt thousands of years later through migrants from the Levant.

There is such a thing as DNA. We happen to have ancient DNA from all over the world, and have been able to extract autosomal, paternal(Y) and maternal(mt) DNA.
The ancient Egyptians were similar to Copts of today.
Muslim Arab Egyptians of today have more Sub-Saharan DNA than ancient Egyptians!
This is due to slave trade and migration of Sudanese and Zanjis.

[–] asom (6558) a year ago

And the racist black supremacist didn’t respond, no wonder …

[–] letess (1037) a year ago

I can’t tell if you are kidding or not. You’re not serious about Gal Gadot, right?

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

What part would I not be serious about?
Ashkenazis being part European, part Middle Eastern?
Gadot is an Ashkenazi Jew.

[–] letess (1037) a year ago

Well, seeing as though Omar Sharif’s Egyptian citizenship was almost revoked for kissing Streisand in Funny Girl, I just don’t think it would fly. Plus, Cleopatra was really really short and plain (not beautiful), plump (maybe obese), dark complexioned with a huge nose. Her other known qualities were that she was extremely intelligent, could speak about 10 languages, and had a lyrical voice.

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

It's not about appeasing to modern Egyptians.
What they think of Jews or Israel or Zionism or a movie about Cleopatra is of no relevance to my point.

As for the historical Cleopatra, I'm no expert on ancient descriptions of her physical features.
I'm going by typical features of the confirmed ethnic groups she's descended from.

[–] letess (1037) a year ago

You’re kidding. And you’re an anthropologist? Egypt is already up in arms about the Netflix production. You can do both - use her description by historians and use the likeness of her ethnic extraction which was Greek Macedonian with Iranian and Persian mixed in and perhaps Syrian but not Ashkenazi Jew, which is also what Scarlet Johansson is. And Gal Gadot I don’t think reflects any of these and not to state the obvious, Gadot is extremely tall. She is an Amazon. Separately, in my opinion she is not that great of an actress and I see her more as an action star or model. Is anybody asking about how well written this thing is. Because that’s the thing to ask.

P.S. If anybody watched the 2005 HBO Rome series, now that was great writing. Ciaran Hinds was Caesar and James Purefoy was Mark Antony and Lyndsey Marshal was Cleopatra. And these were British actors.

[–] WrepDrep (329) a year ago

Being an anthropologist doesn't automatically make me an expert on every trivial matter of ancient history.

My response was to the director's comments.
Her issue was with white actresses' portraying Cleopatra - not their height.

Cleopatra obviously wasn't Ashkenazi Jew, considering that Ashkenazi Jews didn't even exist at that point.
I'm referring to the groups that Ashkenazis descend from, which is ancient Levantines("Syrians"), Greco-Romans and some Slavic/Germanic converts.