As a consequence of Martin's obsession with "morally grey" characters there is truly no one to root for in this show. Any one getting their way would be bad for everyone else. These characters have no moral compass and are all just opportunistic fiends. The show is downright miserable.
shareWas there really anyone to root for in GoT except maybe Jon, Robb and Dany?
They're flawed characters, no real surprise.
Yes, the Starks were the good characters of the show.
shareAre they?
Arya was blood thirsty.
Robb betrayed Walder Frey. And enslaved a woman.
Jon executed a little kid.
Ned lied and let his wife think Jon was his bastard son.
Sansa was pretty good... She had few flaws.
Bran was pretty clean too.
Sansa snitched on her own father for personal gain.
shareAre you referring to the letter she wrote? I think she was backed into a corner and basically forced to do it.
But she did lie about the butcher's son and what happened between joffery, arya and the wolf.
She told (I think?) Cersei that Ned was about to flee King's Landing and then Ned got arrested and executed. All so she could have her fairytale nutjob prince.
shareI'm trying to remember what episode that was. I don't recall her having anything to do with it. Ned confronted Joffrey in regards to his rightful place as the king in the throne room and that was when he was cast into a dungeon.
Plus, Sansa didn't know just how screwed up Joffery was until the latter episodes of season 1.
After they put Ned in the dungeon they had Sansa write a letter to Robb pleading for him to stand down. When he got it, it took like 5 seconds for them to realize Cersei put her up to it
shareSansa? Really? I thought Sansa was the one that practicaly no one liked.
You are forgetting Tyrion, the show's most popular character. Jon executed a kid who stabbed him to death, that was his one morally grey moment in 8 seasons.
And why is it that no one liked Sansa? What exactly was wrong with her? Other than the actress playing her (Sophie Turner) I found no actual reason to dislike her other than of course lying about the situation that happened with the butcher's son, Arya and joffrey, that was pretty bad. Sophie's acting skills were somewhat questionable and I suppose that's why most people didn't like her.
Jon Snow knows nothing and that is morally reprehensible. lol
Okay, on a more serious note, he did break his oath when he slept with Ygritte.
We can decide on our own if this is a major offense but is it not punishable by death to do this? It's considered a pretty big offense for a member of the nights watch to do this.
In fact, to some degree, the wall is almost like punishment for many of the ones sent there. Having fun with the opposite sex is forbidden.
And yeah, he executed a kid, most would think that's not the thing to do even if they committed murder. The kid was highly influenced by the events that happened in his life and by the other night's watchmen. Those were the reasons why he chose to do it. His impressionable age made it seem like it was not worth executing him over. At least, I don't think most would agree with executing him...
Snow wasn't too bad though, he had some good qualities. I still probably wouldn't call him a hero though.
And the last survey I heard about had Little-finger as the shows most liked character... why? I have no idea but he was a pretty good character.
Sansa didn't tell Jon the truth of how she found out the Blackfish had retaken Riverrun. She then failed to tell him about her meeting with Littlefinger in Moletown. When Brienne said something to Sansa about lying to Jon, Sansa told Brienne to be silent. Then when it came to fighting the Boltons to retake Winterfell, she didn't tell Jon the reason she wanted him to wait for the Vale to get there. Jon, Tormund, all the Wildlings, Mormonts, etc would have had a better advantage had Sansa TOLD Jon why she wanted him to wait. Then she openly challenged her King in front of his people. Then in season 8, she blabbed the secret her was Aegon Targaryen to of all people, Tyrion Lannister! Sorry but Sansa was a wreck if a character thinking she knew how to play that Game of Thrones.
shareWas she obligated to tell Jon about riverrun and the Vale knights? As I remember it, I don't think they cared for each other that much, Jon didn't want to hear anything from her. She had to plea with him to give her chance.
Although, I do think she should have told him about her request for the Vale Knights. Her motives were never quite clear as to why she didn't do this, other than perhaps Jon and his unwillingness to listen to her. Once Jon gave her a chance, she did tell him a few things about Ramsey Bolton, which Jon of course dismissed and it almost got himself killed at the beginning of the Battle Of The Bastards by charging at Rickon.
I still can't find any clear reason to dislike Sansa that much.
Sansa wasn't going to be fighting. She wasn't going to be the one to actually put her life on the line. She wasn't going to be the one going up against Ramsay or his men. Remember Jon was the one who just wanted to read and head South. Sansa was the one who said she'd "take Winterfell back with or without your help." So fine, go do it Sansa. Go and call on Littlefinger to bring the Vale. Yet The Vale arrives AFTER Jon, Tormund, Wildlings, Mormonts, and the other men had already been fighting to the death, but yeah, Sansa just sits back.
As for caring for each other...not much growing up because she was a snobby little shit. Yet who did she go to for safety? Jon. When she asked, "Where will you go?" What did Jon say? "Where will we go?" Doesn't sound like a man who didn't care for his sister. But only when she needs his protection did Sansa give. Only after Ramsay does she go to Jon.
As for Jon not listening to her: Would you if you were in Jon's shoes when you've got a war to fight? Listen to a girl? I wouldn't. And later on the battlements Sansa admitted she should have told Jon. Jon then said they had to trust each other, and still after he was named King, she challenged him in full view of The Northern houses. Sansa is no leader. Jon is, that's why he was made Lord Commander.
I can find many to loathe Sansa. She is no leader, no Queen, and cannot be trusted. Ever!
Like I said in a previous post, Sansa has a few flaws but WTF?? Sansa's life was on the line, lose the battle of the bastards and Ramsey most likely tortures her then kills her.
She had a lot at stake over that battle. She pleaded with Jon to get more men, Jon rejected it, so she requested the Vale knights.
Sansa sits back? Ummm, no... she met the enemy on the battlefield before it started.
Snobby little shit? Which scene made her appear snobby in season 1? For the most part, Sansa was naive when she was young and wanted the fair-tale life. No crime in that... while Arya was the opposite, she didn't want to be a "lady", she wanted to kill.
For the most part, Sansa was a product of her upbringing. Her mother didn't like Jon and as a result she didn't act very kind towards him.
And come on now, if Jon can sit down and have talks with Mance Rayder, a vicious cold blooded wilding, he should be able to sit down with Sansa and talk about the up-coming battle but no, didn't happen.
Sansa had her own way about her but I still don't see any legit reason to "hate" her. But yeah, some of the fans didn't like her. However, from what I recall, many just didn't like Sophie's acting skills.
I always thought she had a great look for the role she was playing. A huge reason why this show was so successful was "looks". Just about everyone had ideal looks for the part they were playing.
Sansa has more than a 'few' flaws. So okay to use your mentality, don't you think then Sansa had a stake in telling Jon about the Vale? Don't you think it would have made her a valuable asset to Jon if she did indeed tell him how she found out The Blackfish retook Riverrun instead of lying about it? Then lying to Brienne who advised her not to lie? As for telling Jon they needed more men, the battle was that morning. She had the knowledge she'd sent the raven to Littlefinger. She should have told him what she'd done, perhaps it would have made Jon rethink his strategy against Ramsay. Sansa learned a lot of Cersei in that she clearly thinks she's more clever than she thinks. What Tywin said about Cersei is true of Sansa.
As for the "Snobby little Shit" comment, she always held her nose higher than Jon. Than Arya. She's just like her mother, Catelyn. She also lied to defend Joffrey against Arya and the butcher boy. A lie that cost her Lady, her direwolf. One might have thought in the interim between that scene where she lied for Joffrey and reuniting with Jon at Castle Black, she didn't learn a thing. Namely, telling the goshdarned truth for once. Telling the guy who will be fighting HER fight what information he needed to know in order to plan his battle accordingly.
AS for Jon not listening or "sitting down and talking" with Sansa as oppose to Mance Rayder, apples and oranges. A discussion with the leader of the Wildlings and trying to forge a peace with them, is a way different thing that sitting down with your sister and discussing thing she has no real world experience in.
Sansa sure did have her own way about her, and that is that she thinks she's smarter than anyone else. Something Cersei believed as well. This has nothing to do with Sophie Turner's acting style. It has to do with the character as she was in the series and the actions. And those actions had consequences, consequences Sansa clearly didn't think about when she lied to Jon.
To add, Sansa "may" have had insight into Ramsay and his mentality. However, she had no insight into how a battle is fought. Also, she more or less wrote off Rickon. Jon won't do that. That is his brother. Seems the one who isn't a true-born son of Ned Stark cares more about the Stark name than the true-born daughter of The Warden of the North.
Again, she didn't tell him about the Vale Knights because Jon wouldn't listen anyways. He told him that he needed more men which was proven to be true since Sansa had to save Jon in the BotB.
I think that's the one thing that became a focal point of Jon's character, he was a good guy but in constant need of people "saving him" from his bad ideas. The witch even had to save him from his own death.
I don't think you quite get Sansa as a character, she is more like a littlefinger type rather than a Cersei type. You never know exactly what her motives are, whereas with Cersei, you always know what her motive is. Which again, is there any explanation as to why she lied about Riverrun? Not really, other than she perhaps doesn't trust Jon because he sided with wildlings.
At this point of the story, Sansa has been humiliated by Joffery and tortured by Ramsey, which it almost sounds like you enjoyed it when Ramsey tortured/raped her. Am I right?
For the most part, Sansa has lost faith in people and has a hard time trusting others. I still don't see any real reason to "hate" her though. Other than her lies about the butcher's son incident, she was pretty clean in most areas. And comparing her to Cersie is somewhat laughable, Cersei was the snottiest person on the show. I liked Cersei though, she always had a commanding presence and was an interesting character.
But I do agree, Sansa wasn't really in a position to give military advise which again, that kinda confirms what I said about the situation here. She figured Jon won't listen anyways because she's a woman. Personally, I think sitting down with her in private and asking her about the battle would be okay, but I probably would not do this in front of the other men. lol..
At any rate, we're probably never going to agree on Sansa, but she never bothered me that much. There were plenty of characters on this show that were much worse.
And once again, you still don't get the importance of Sansa telling Jon how she found out about The Blackfish retaking Riverrun, and of her sending a raven to Littlefinger. You still haven't gotten it was her DUTY to tell Jon since it was Sansa who not only forced Jon to do this, but told him if he didn't help her she'd so it somehow by herself. Sansa said Jon needed more men, then perhaps here's a novel idea: She tell him she'd sent the raven to Littlefinger and that he was in Moletown. Maybe, just maybe Jon would have listened to her, however, she only said: "We need more men," without one word about what she'd done. And here's this: The battle was set for the morning. Had Jon not confronted Ramsay that morning, Ramsay would have done what he did with Stannis with only the 20 men. And Jon would have been caught unawares and it could have been worse, like wholesale slaughter of Jon's men. Sansa did not save Jon. She complicated things for him.
Here's the thing about Sansa, she thinks she's smarter than she is. Again a throwback to her time with Cersei. She's no Dany who seeks the advice of her advisors. Sansa seeks her own, which considering how bad she is at The Game of Thrones, she needs to stop. Sansa has never ever faced half of what Jon has. Sure she suffered with Ramsay. As for your cheap shot about my "liking Sansa being raped by Ramsay," I'm a rape survivor. I don't support any kind of sexual violence against woman so please spare me.
As for Jon having to be 'saved' from his own death, yeah when seven men drive knives into you, it's a little hard to be think of being 'saved'. If you remember it was Davos who asked Melissandre to bring him back. Jon wasn't saved, he was brought back from death. I'm sure he so enjoyed being stabbed to death. And how many times has Sansa had to be saved? Let's see, Brienne wanted to twice, but just like stupid Sansa, she ran from her. What did she do? Went with Littlefinger, then had the gall to blame Littlefinger for giving her to Ramsay. What like the fact his father was responsible for The Red Wedding and his father was the one who ended Robb's life?
I get Sansa. As a woman, I get her. She's nothing special and nothing to root for because of one thing: How damn stupid she is. She's no LIttlefinger type. She's not quite that intelligent. Baelish started a war based on a lie. Sansa can't even get out of her was long enough to do anything intelligent. Brienne is more intelligent. Gilly is more intelligent. And no, Sansa is not 'pretty clean.' She's got blood on her hands. She wrote Rickon off completely. Jon was the one who wanted to do anyting to save Rickon. So no. And again she clearly didn't understand any lesson at all from her father's loyalty. Meaning, she lost her direwolf wich is a portent of things to come. She lied and Lady died.
Sansa bothered me because of how ridiculous she was. How utterly stupid she was.
Hmmm... ohhh kay...
I can tell you're quite passionate about this. To be honest, I am probably not that passionate in regards to the topic of Sansa Stark. But when you "hate" a character this much, passion can run deep, I just didn't hate Sansa. She was alright, I was mostly in-different about her. You could never tell exactly why she does the things she does. Which, Littlefinger is the same way, thus the comparison of Sansa to Littlefinger.
And I do apologize for my comment, sorry to hear you are a victim of rape but it seems as though you would have sympathy for a character that's been raped since it happened to you. I didn't have much of an opinion of Sansa, but I could sympathize with her. She was treated horribly by the males in her life.
These were the men she thought would give her the fairy-tale life she so wanted ever since she was a young girl. I mainly view her as naive and not sure how to play the game until she figures out the dream has become a nightmare and that her life wasn't going to be the fairy-tale she desired. So instead of sulking, she decides to play the game as best she can in order to carve out some kind of life for herself.
You call her dumb and whatnot but Arya said she's the smartest woman she knows and at the end, she does become Queen in the North and all the northern Knights support her. Maybe this is what she wanted for some time, this way, she could exact revenge on the ones that wronged her.
At the end, she won the game, but how she got there still didn't make much sense. lol...
I can probably chalk that up to careless writing and not exactly the fault of the character herself.
Either way, love her or hate her, Sansa was not even close to being the worst character on this show.
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Very well said.
shareShe was a shallow twit. That’s reason enough. Plus she didn’t seem to enjoy anal.
shareTwit or naive? I prefer to view Sansa as naive first and maybe a little twitty as the show rolls on. But as her character arc continues, she was willing to do odd things that don't have much of an explanation just like Littlefinger.
shareWhat woman did Robb enslave? If you're talking about the series, he fell in love with and married Talisa. If you're talking about Osha, she willingly allowed him to take her in return for sparing her life. A debt she returned by giving her life to defend and protect Bran and Rickon.
shareYes, I am talking about Osha. She was basically a slave. She was in shackles, and working/slaving, of course, that was how they punished people in the North, it wasn't the worst thing ever but most would agree that making someone your personal maid is not the right thing to do.
Again you failed to note she was a Wildling. Wildlings were known to kill and steal and rape. She and the other Wildlings that were with her were threatening a cripple. One stabbed that cripple in the leg to STEAL his horse. That is how those that do harm are treated. No different than how Jaime Lannister was treated after Robb took him after the Battle in the Whispering Woods. Robb spared her life. A debt she repaid by keeping Bran and Rickon safe from both Theon and Ramsay. Making someone a servant in exchange for outright killing them I boeve was preferable to Osha. Something she didn't seem to mind. I wouldn't either. At least I was alive.
shareI get it, she's big and bad and that's how they do things in the North. I still say, by today's standards, we don't typically do this to people that have broken the law.
Still, not the worst thing ever, but it does give the impression that even the Starks can do things that are somewhat shady. In fact, killing was how they came into power, you should read up on their history.
You don't think they're a "perfect" group of people, do you?
Dude, you obviously are taking it a little too far as thinking the world of the show takes place in today's mindset. It's a medieval world where lords and ladies exist, and we're talking about dragons and direwolves. In THAT day and age when people break the law such as trying to kill a kid, they're punished. And to be blunt Robb was merciful. He could have had her killed on the spot.
I personally don't think anyone is this world is perfect. No one, not even Ned Stark. Robert Baratheon wasn't perfect. Neither was Jamie Lannister. This world is not like ours. As for the history, I'm currently reading the first book.
I know what you mean, in the context of the story, it is what it is. Things were different in that day and age but there's nothing wrong with injecting 21st century views on it.
Example... Ned Stark chopped off a guys head for deserting the wall. Most of us in this day and age don't think chopping off heads is the best way to handle people that commit crimes. It makes for a GREAT story though. GoT is perhaps the best show ever in my opinion.
The Starks are the ones that we have a tendency to pull for but as Martin's stories go, there is a morally gray area in all of the characters.
Um, no! This show is fantasy. It has direwolves, wargs, greenseers, dragons, and people who come back from the dead. Most people in this day and age can figure that out.
shareThat's the thing about GoT and Martin's story.
The Starks have good intentions and admirable qualities but they do dumb shit. Now, whether or not we consider stupidity a moral problem is up for debate. However, judging by the way you talk about Sansa Stark, I would assume you have major problems with stupid people. lol...
But for example, was it morally wrong and stupid for Robb to betray Walder Frey? Keep in mind, this decision got everyone killed at the red wedding. Had I been one of Robb's bannermen, I would have been majorly pissed that he did this to Frey.
And not because I think Frey is some great man that deserves kudos but because we are at war and the decisions you make can can put my life in danger.
Again, this is where Martin draws a huge line in his stories. Every character is of questionable moral character, and some are just downright morally bankrupt but we often find ourselves pulling for even those that have reached all time lows. But this is what makes the story so great in my view.
The Starks were far better than anyone else on the show with the exception of Tyrian.
Arya wanted vengeance against those who did her and her family wrong. Cant fault her for that.
Robb betrayed a crusty old geezer for the woman he loved. Not honorable, but not exactly bad. Asha was a prisoner for crimes she committed. Not a slave.
Jon executed the little bastard who betrayed him stabbed him in the heart. Ollie was a man of the nights watch and they have pretty clear rules about mutiny and murdering the lord commander.
Ned lied to save an infant's life. How is that bad? I wouldn't have trusted Cat either. She had a vindictive streak.
I did like the Starks the most but they were not squeaky clean.
Arya wanted vengeance but was willing to kill too. She was quite blood thirsty and actually trained to be an assassin.
So, the fact that Walder was a "crusty old geezer" made it okay for Robb to make a decision that got his men killed? Hmmm. ok...
Ollie's execution wasn't the worst thing ever, killing the Lord Commander was a crime but he was just a kid, and was influenced by the older people around him. Snow could have had him thrown in the dungeon.
So Ned let's his wife believe this for decades that he had a bastard son.... I just don't think that was a good decision and it cost them plenty. Cat even blamed the start of the war on her relentlessness to accept Jon as a son. I don't think Cat would have let the "secret" out if the bag had Ned told her the truth. But it made for good TV that she didn't know. lol...
None of things you stated make the characters someone the audience won't root for. If anything, they enhance their appeal as protagonist.
Arya didn't kill anyone who didn't very much have it coming.
Robb fell in love with someone and made a series of bad choices that got him killed. What really did him in was executing Karstark and losing half his army.
Ollie may have been influenced, but in the end he made his own choices, so his execution was fine.
The protagonist still having flaws and dealing with moral conflicts just means they are well written. In the end, they all made choices the audience can identify with and support, which is why in GOT, the Starks are clearly the good guys within the context of the world they live in.
I think that's the point of Martin's stories though. They're all shady characters to some degree but we can still find ones to pull for because "he or she is not as bad as that other dude/gal". lol...
Although, I've met a few people that did root for the Lannisters. Tywin was an extremely likeable bad guy and so was Jaime. Tyrion was also very easy to like.
People do this in real life too. It's like picking the lesser of two evils. And I can admit, I did pull for the Starks but mainly because I liked Ned, he was my favorite character in the beginning.
Arya became annoying though because of her thirst for blood.
Also, Robb did ride with the Boltons early on and they torture people. Again, siding with certain unsavory individuals is a matter of convenience in many situations.
Ollie was just a little kid, nope, can't see any valid reason to execute him, unless he was a serial killer, then yeah, you need to execute those types.
At any rate, my differing opinions are probably a product of my time. We typically don't execute little kids or seek revenge on everyone etc... but the middle ages which this is loosely based on was a brutal time.
The Hound was an awesome character with some of the best lines in the show.
some Lannister soldier: "Are you going to die for some chickens?"
The Hound: "Someone is"
and keep in mind that while he refused knighthood, he was more of a knight than his brother (The Mountain) ever was. He risked his life to protect both Sansa and Arya when he didn't have any tangible reason to. He just knew it was the right thing to do. Yes, he did some horrible things along the way, but his overall character arc was towards the light rather than darkness.
The Hound is a very likeable bad guy. I do agree that his character arc was quite good. Although, he had a good reason to protect Arya since he was basically holding her for ransom. A spin-off with The Hound might have been a great idea by the show-runners.
His journey after the fall of Kings Landing could have made for a great crime drama. Especially since you don't see crime dramas set in ancient times very often.
I root for the dragon keepers because they have the hardest and most dangerous job on the show, but they do it anyway.
shareIt's not a basketball game.
I don't need to root for anyone as long as I enjoy the writing, the spectacle and the acting.
I've never heard of it
shareIf that's your barometer, you'd be dumping some of the best shows from the "peak tv" era. The "morally grey" character, and the anti-hero, has been commonplace for decades now. The Sopranos, Mad Men, and Breaking Bad show that it's more than the obsession of one George R. R. Martin. They'd defend their approach to characterization as more aligned with the reality of most human action.
And as others have already mentioned, the most important question is whether their depiction, and the story, is compelling. Do you wanna go with them on the ride, to see where it goes, or not?
I agree. I find myself wondering if anyone in this show is likeable, but that may be the point of this show. Since it's about the downfall of this family, I expect everyone is full of shit.
I like the king, but he's somewhat of a pansy.