MovieChat Forums > Politics > Geninuine question about guns in the US

Geninuine question about guns in the US


I don't want to debate guns For or Against. Im genuinely curious, as a non American what the feeling of the nation is when it comes to high power/high round guns.

What's the "For" argument for assault rifles in America? I understand that everyone can own a gun if they wish to, but why are these types not banned outright? I mean, is there an actual need for these by a civilian? A hand gun for protection, and a rifle for hunting, I understand.

Crazy folk can do damage with any kind of gun, so why not at least lessen the havoc by reducing their fire rate ?

Helpful responses only please.

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I'm Canadian and two of the reasons I've heard is that they want to be armed in case of government tyranny and it's their right and they shouldn't be limited in what they're allowed to own.

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Of course, because remember, a few red necks armed with ARs will certainly be able to prevent an armored division from overrunning their trailer park.

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I guess it's sort of like "if they ban this type of gun, then it will be all guns next" kind of thinking then ?

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Probably. Honestly, if I was a liberal politician who wanted to ban guns without taking away any rights, I'd set the price of a simple handgun at $20,000 and every round of ammunition at $2000. "You want a gun? It's gonna cost you a pretty penny. Enjoy your rights."

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They can also do damage with cars, airplanes, pressure cookers, fertilizer, knives, bleach, koolaid etc…

The right to bear arms is not about hunting. It’s about the people having the ability to keep their government in check. Our country was founded on independence and liberty. The authoritarian communist Democrat party wing of government wanting to disarm the people is about acquiring more control for themselves over the people. They care nothing of peoples safety. Just look at every large city they’ve run for 50-100 years straight. All have the strongest gun laws, all lead in gun violence.

High power, high capacity weapons are already illegal. The AR15 is essentially a .22 caliber made to look like a military weapon. Automatic weapons, machine guns, are illegal. There is no such thing as an assault rifle, it’s just a term media/government use because they’re ignorant. When asked to define what it is they cant, because it doesn’t exist.

Murder is also illegal. Drugs are illegal. Drinking and driving is illegal. People who break laws obviously don’t care about laws. Taking guns away, which is the goal, will do nothing but punish law abiding citizens, and empower criminals.

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Serious question because I've always been confused by this: the United States has 120 firearms per 100 residents, and they are the only country in the world that has more f
guns than people, why are there so many shootings when they know that the other person could easily shoot back? Also, wouldn't total crimes not related to guns be low knowing that anyone could kill them?

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Because if you look at the data most mass shootings are in fact drug and or gang related. So of course they don't care if the other people have their own guns. Then you have people who are trying to settle some sort of grudge. Look at the recent Hospital mass shooting. That shooter admitted in his writings that he didn't want to kill his non targets, but would if they got in his way. This means he didn't care if anyone else around had a gun of their own.

Most gun owners do not even have a conceal carry permit in the US. Which is the ultimate deterrent.

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But I question why this is mostly an American thing. Every country has crime, but you really don't hear the majority of people in their country demanding that they should be able to buy guns when they want.

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WE ARE LOUD MOUTH FUCKING COWBOYS...DEAL WITH IT...OR GET SHOT.🙂

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Yeehaw!

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This has also been addressed before. We have a gun culture in this country that is unmatched. People love to hunt and go to the shooting ranges. People in other countries do not have this gun enthusiasm.

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No one will ever take someone who calls themself "CowherPower" seriously. When Bill Cowher made The Hall Of Fame, it became the hall of mediocrity.

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One of the best coaching records ever along with the best winning percentage ever with a lead going into the second half. Two Super Bowl appearances and one win. He only had Roethlisberger for 3 seasons. That was without the doubt his best Quarterback during his entire time in Pittsburgh.

Definition of hall of famer..

Now sit back down, child.

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1 and 1 in Super Bowls. In that case Switzer ought to get in for beating Stupid Bill, and Shanahan also because he was 2 & 0. And Stupid Bill didn't even want to draft Ben, he wanted an OT; if he would have had his way, Tommy Maddox and God knows who else would have floundered around for a few more seasons until Stupid Bill was forced to hang it up. All he ever did was rant & rage & spit sunflower seeds on the sideline.

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His Super Bowl record nor his AFC Championship record wasn't great, I admit this, but other coaches have gotten in for less. As I said no other coach has the record he has with a lead in the second half. Then look at how many AFC Championship games he appeared in with guys like Pick Six O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart. He did so much with so little.

He was an angry guy, which is why I relate so well with him. This is why ages ago I choose this as my username back on the old forum(CowherPower back then).

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LOL! Stupid Bill actually chose O'Donnell over Bubby. And I don't know whose idea it was to draft Slash And Burn, but he was better than his predecessor and Graham or Maddox and the other Post-Neil clowns, and if he would have been utilized properly the Squeelers might have gone to a Super Bowl with him. (But heaven help us if we blame the coach for that.)

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A lot of statistics get thrown about but the truth is that most "mass shootings" occur between gangs. The ones that the media focuses on overwhelmingly happen in "gun free zones" like schools. Because the perps are cowards, they're not looking for a fight. They want to slaughter innocents.

There are also a lot of jurisdictions with strong gun laws where it is nigh on impossible to get a carry permit. Like LA, Chicago and New York. This only affects the law abiding citizen.

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why are there so many shootings when they know that the other person could easily shoot back


These shootings always happen in "Gun Free Zones".....gun-free zones are stupid. They turn people into sitting ducks.

(Potential)Shootings that get stopped with civilian conceal carry don't make the news. Doesn't fit muh narrative.

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This is pretty much it. While most would laugh at the idea of average citizens standing any chance fighting back against our military, they might want to look at whats been going on over in Ukraine. How many thought the Russians would lose all these soldiers. And its because average citizens are standing up and fighting as well. This does mean the militias would ultimately win out however.

Then you would have to factor in how many in the military would switch sides and help out the militias. Thus giving us an even greater advantage.

Again, the odds of this actually happening is slim, but thats why we have the protection.

Look at our freedom of speech laws. Hate speech is protected just as much as popular speech. While in other countries hate speech is not protected. Should we all of a sudden stop protecting unpopular speech because it offends people. Of course not.

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"They can also do damage with cars, airplanes, pressure cookers, fertilizer, knives, bleach, koolaid etc…"

LOLLLLLLLLLLL that shy we arm the military with only knifes and no guns right?

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so that means you are pro gun, pro NRA and pro 2nd amendment?

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wow logical connections are tough for you huh?

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well said...of course a dem will have a snarky response.

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Yup, and that's why our military goes into combat armed with cars, airplanes, pressure cookers, fertilizer, knives, bleach, koolaid etc…

And by the way, an AR15 fires a 5.56 or .223 round and it leaves the muzzle at around 3000 FPS. It's the round the US military has been using for killing folks with since the 1960s. The M16 is an AR15 with selective fire. Other than that, all parts are interchangeable.

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Oh! I read this after responding to Gd5150. ... I still don't get it then 😕

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GD5150 doesn't have a clue, Kate; he doesn't know what he is talking about.
For some real quick background, a gentleman named Eugene Stoner started developing the AR15 with a manufacturer named Armalite way back in the '50s. Colt bought the rights and it was Colt who did the engineering to convert a semiautomatic AR15 into the M16 which featured selective fire. Sometime in the early '60s (which was a few years before I joined up) the M16 (with a TWENTY round mag back then, not 30 like now) replaced the M14 (which is a 7.62x51/.308 and basically a M1A with selective fire) in Vietnam. That choice may have been due to political reasons or it may have actually because the M16 seemed better qualified for the job, or it may have been due to both. Ever since then, the military has been going into combat with that gun/that caliber. To begin with the M16 had reliability issues due to the DOD wanting Remington to experiment with the ammunition for it. But over the decades, those issues have been worked out, and the AR15 is extremely reliable. If you want an interesting read, get a hold of "The AR15 Vol 4" by Patrick Sweeney (who is not a "gun hating liberal"), he writes about subjecting various AR15s to conditions that no operator in his or her right mind would purposely subject their rifle to. And the ARs of today, according to Sweeney, continued to function.

But in short, Kate, the M16 is an AR15 that has the added feature of selective fire (the ability to go fully automatic) and they use the same ammunition.

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I think the original Armalite AR-15 rifle was fully automatic before Colt purchased the rights. The first one off the assembly line had a selector switch for both auto and semi. It was up for auction years ago and can't imagine what someone probably paid for it.

https://imgur.com/a/jNkmla4

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I am going to "The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide" by Walt Kuleck with Scott Duff, and I cannot find mention of that. Not that it isn't so, but in their recounting of the history behind the rifle (the chapter titled "Genesis") they don't include that. They do give Colt credit for turning the Stoner Rifle into the M-16.

On an aside, the AR-10 actually preceded the AR-15. Apparently during testing/demonstration it suffered some catastrophic failures and the military didn't want it. Evidently the reason they went with the M-14.

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Ah, now I want to read that book. I'll see if I can find a used copy online.

Yeah, I've heard of the AR-10. Is there any mention of the AR-7 in that book? It was a nifty little survival gun chambered in the lowly .22 LR for downed pilots and I think its still produced to this day. I'm assuming its now used as an emergency tool for people out in the wilderness.

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Ah ok, that's very helpful. Yes, the media label it an assault rifle so I assumed that was correct. I know nothing about guns. Thank you 👍

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I know nothing about guns.


This is the democrat/media playbook. Educate yourself. I would highly encourage you to empower yourself, and take a gun safety training course at your local range. You will not regret it, trust me! Take some friends too. You'll have a shit ton of fun in the process, and you'll be able to educate others in your life that also listen to the lies the media/democrats spew to the masses.

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Isn't funny how they are so concerned with arming other countries, but disarming law-abiding Americans.... fucking clown world.

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Yes they want to disarm the people which they want to control. While arming Nazis in Ukraine.

This is what every communist authoritarian regime did in the 20th century. Which helped lead to them killing 100,000,000 people.

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Hunting Elk or mountain goats and stuff is mostly shooting from one mountain over to another. Texas also is you need something that has about half mile shooting distance.
485 yards https://youtu.be/gxFZdKotuOc They take turns in the group. One shoots each day, and the others pack it out.

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First and foremost, an AR15 is not an assault rifle. "Assault rifle" is a legitimate term describing a military rifle with a large magazine that fires an intermediate cartridge and is capable of fully automatic (think machinegun) fire. The US M16 and M4 and Russian AK47 (and variants) are assault rifles. The civilian AR15 is not, as it is semi-automatic only.

"Assault weapon" is a vague political term used by leftists to demonize certain firearms based on appearance, while ignoring more innocuous guns that function the same. Democrats have always been very ignorant on the subject of guns and they fully depend on the ignorance of the voters. I've always believed that if the public were educated on the truth, gun control laws would have no chance of passing.

The 2nd Amendment is not about need, hunting, recreational shooting or even self defense. It is meant to preserve The People's ability to change their government if necessary. We have already allowed way too many infringements on this right and there will be no more.

That said, semi-auto rifles and pistols are extremely popular, far more than any other type. The AR15 is the single most popular rifle in America. People use them for all sorts of purposes. Recreational shooting, competitive shooting, self defense and even hunting. A lot of people hunt with them, myself included. Actually the last deer I killed was with an AR15 that I put together for that very purpose and I've built two more since then.

......continued

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......from above

The bottom line is that the proposed gun laws are not going to save any lives. They won't prevent these shootings because they do NOTHING to address the underlying causes. Guns are low hanging fruit. Democrats can pass a law, say they did something, satisfy their ignorant constituents and nobody bothers to look at the numbers until years later. The last assault weapons ban was PROVEN to do nothing to prevent crime. Now here we are again, because we can't face the reality as a society, that we're doing something wrong that's creating these monsters.

You can't save the sheep from wolves by pulling the sheep dog's teeth.

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Ignore Lil Craigy . . . he had his head squeezed by a pair of birthing forceps when he was hatched and he often spouts nonsensical bullshit.

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Landowners here in Texas will get pigs moved in on them. They travel in herds of at least a couple of dozen. You need a large capacity magazine gun to shoot as many as you can before they run off. They will come back the next day. You can't spend all your time going out each day to just shoot one pig.Shoot as many as you can get to.Then clean them and pass the meat off you don't need to your friends.

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Off the pigs!

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I am seeing some posts here minimising the effect of AR-15's and calling the name "Assault Weapons" arbitrary.

Here are some videos showing the difference and some testimony on what a AR-15 can do to the human body compared with a 9mm.

60 minutes

https://youtu.be/edsmI6UCj4w

https://youtu.be/hfDLdeUfuwI


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Are you aware of the type ammo used in these videos? The AR-15 can be chambered for different types of ammunition. The AR-15 in these videos more than likely used defense hollow point which explodes inside the target. The reporter didn’t give all the facts when talking about the AR-15.

A Glock .40 if chambered with defense hollow point can do as much damage as an AR-15. People, educate yourself before sounding off!

”Most AR15s fire 223 Remington or 5.56 NATO ammo, although AR15s have been chambered with a number of other ammunition types, including 22 long rifle, 204 Ruger, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 300 AAC Blackout, and 458 SOCOM. AR15s can also shoot pistol ammo, such as 9 mm, 40 Smith & Wesson, and 45 ACP.”

The AR-15, btw, is NOT an assault weapon. The following will explain the AR-15 much better than I ever could.

“The Truth About the AR-15 Rifle”

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-truth-about-the-ar-15-rifle/

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I don't think hoping that the active shooter who is bent on killing as many people possible will use a less deadly type of ammo in his AR-15 is a viable strategy.

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Maybe not, but the weapon shouldn’t be banned from those who have a right to own it. Chances are also if the killer isn’t proficient in ammo s/he may not be aware of the most deadly ammo. From what I understand hunters don’t use defense hollow point ammo in their AR-15. So if a kid grabs it mostly like it’s chambered with ammo which doesn’t expand.

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Actually non-expanding ammo is illegal for hunting in most jurisdictions. The interesting point here is that the cartridge most AR's fire, the 5.56NATO/.223Remington, is considered to be barely adequate for deer hunting. It's only viable with premium, controlled expansion bullets. AR's used for big game are more commonly chambering more potent cartridges like the 6.5Grendel, 6.8SPC, .300Blackout, .450Bushmaster, etc..

These dipshits are finally learning what bullets do to people.

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Why is non-expanding ammo illegal for hunting?

Also your comment “However, they obviously used non-expanding bullets in the handguns to maximize the effect of their "unbiased" story.” rings true. The test was so blatantly biased which made it laughable!

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Because it doesn't produce enough damage for a quick, clean kill. Deer shot with "full metal jacket" ammo are likely to be lost, dying in agony hours later and two miles away.

This is the reason why expanding ammunition was banned from warfare by The Hague Convention. It was an attempt to make war less uncivilized and wounds survivable. I guess everything is relative. I've still seen FMJ wounds that were atrocious.

In self defense and hunting, we want maximum effect, so expanding ammunition is preferable.

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I’ve heard other game hunters remark they didn’t like expanding ammo because it damages the meat too much.

”I've still seen FMJ wounds that were atrocious.”

Does this depend on the caliber of the ammo?

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They shouldn't be shooting "meat". The best meat on a deer is along the spine, the "backstraps". The hind quarters are also very good. You typically do not shoot those. The heart/lungs are the usual target and that is nothing but ribcage. You 'may' occasionally lose a shoulder, depending on the angle of the shot but there's not really much meat there. I don't know of any ethical hunter that uses FMJ for hunting. I won't even use it for pest control.

Velocity and whether or not the bullet strikes bone. High velocity is a major contributor to the damage that rifles do. An FMJ at high velocity striking bone produces a lot of secondary projectiles.

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I always thought hunters went for a head shot. When I bought my .22 Mag Pug by North American Arms another customer laughed because of its size. The dealer told him “Don’t laugh! It can take down a deer!” I also added a Crimson-Trace laser to it.

https://northamericanarms.com/product-category/firearms/pug-mini-master-black-widow/the-pug/

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Oh no. Sometimes on varmints and smaller game but a deer's head is the part of the critter that moves the most. The brain is also relatively small and quite a few have been lost to botched head shots. I know hunters who've later encountered deer with their jaws shot off by someone who botched a head shot. No, the "boiler room" is far and away the most commonly used target.

Now, a brain shot is preferred on some of the largest African game when they charge but that's a totally different scenario.

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That’s sad about the botched head shots. I now understand why you use ammo which expands and where to aim. I come from a family of hunters, but I never went hunting.

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It is sad. We never want to make anything suffer. We hunt because we love to hunt. The actual killing is only a small part of that and not even a requirement. We don't do it because we like inflicting pain and suffering. Something that those who wish to ban guns and/or hunting never seem to understand.

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My cousin is an avid hunter. He and his wife rarely buy meat at the grocery as they live mostly off venison. He lives in Colorado which he now hates due to the leftist takeover!

The anti-hunting numbskulls don’t stop and think how that steak on their plates got there. A clean shot from a hunter can be more merciful than what a steer goes through at a slaughter house. At least the deer have a chance to run!

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They also talk like deer are just sheep standing around in a field, waiting to get shot. They have no idea how difficult it is to get a shot at one, let alone a trophy buck. You're on their turf, playing a game they play every single day of their lives. They can hear and smell better than you and are likely to detect your presence without you ever even knowing it.

In effect, liberals are collectively very stupid people who judge things they have no understanding of.

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By banning AR's for the same reason is? The logic here is comical.

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You are comical.

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Isn't it insane that people that literally know jack-shit about guns, are the same ones trying to legislate them?

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That’s usually the way it is. It’s something for them to run with and play big cheese while having armed security! I’m still waiting for someone to inform me what firearm shoots 300 rounds as per Dementia Joe. He said there’s no reason for anyone to have a gun which shoots 300 rounds. Hmm? 🤔

Their mantra is “Do as I say…not as I do!”

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It is obvious from your posting that you don't know "jack-shit" about guns. (Comparing a .40 S&W to a 5.56mm or .223, LOL.) Here's a quick lesson in physics: double the weight and double the kinetic energy, double the speed & quadruple the kinetic energy. Speed kills. A 5.56 mm is about three times faster than a .40 S&W. Here's another lesson that Lil Craigy didn't teach you, probably because he doesn't know as much about guns as he pretends to and definitely because he never served as a rifleman in the infantry: the military sees wounded personnel as more of a liability than dead personnel; a wounded soldier ties up more personnel for longer than a dead one does. Hence, the military is totally fine with FMJ.

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That is total bull shit. The S&W .40 has a muzzle velocity of only around 1200 fps (& maybe not even that) versus the .223 or 5.56mm which moves out at over 3000 FPS. The kinetic energy a .40 S&W produces is not close to a .223. Body armor can stop a .40 but not a .223 or 5.56.

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This is news to you? Yes, rifles are destructive on human bodies, that's kinda the point. Your average deer rifle will basically double the tissue destruction.

However, they obviously used non-expanding bullets in the handguns to maximize the effect of their "unbiased" story.

I'm sorry but this idea that you can ban AR's so that people who are shot have less serious injuries and that will save lives is absolutely batshit crazy.

"Assault weapon" is an arbitrary term, used by politicians to manipulate ignorant people.

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It has worked in Australia.

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I don’t give a rat’s patootie what works or doesn’t work in Australia. I’m a U.S. citizen who has a 2nd Amendment Right as per our U.S. Constitution to own firearms which includes the AR-15.

To repeat:

"A gun, like any other source of power, is a force for either good or evil, being neither in itself, but dependent upon those who possess it."

BTW, Australia once had the same Right, but it was nullified.

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Well enjoy it, because all it takes is ONE United States senator to fail to get re-elected becuase of his support for not banning AR-15 assault rifles for the dominoes to fall.

That looks more and more likely to happen.

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That 1 senator has become a hydra now....good luck!

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AR15's are not assault rifles. How can you wish to ban something when you don't even know what the fuck it is?

This ain't Australia and there are a lot of Australians who wish they hadn't given up so easily. For that to happen here would require a complete rewrite of the Constitution. At that point, we're already at war.

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To repeat yet again: an AR-15 is NOT an assault rifle! It’s illegal for anyone to use a true assault rifle in the U.S.

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You can own a pre-1986 "assault rifle" but it costs upwards of $15,000, plus a $200 tax stamp, a thorough background check through the ATF and several months of waiting for approval. They're basically toys of wealthy collectors. As such, they are never used in crime.

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I have a feeling there are a lot of gun collectors who own them unbeknownst to the feds. The first time I visited an acquaintance’s new home I noticed a keypad locked door in the small library. She opened it and my mouth fell open! What a beautiful display of firearms her husband collected and not just a few! The back wall and sides of the closet was filled!

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There have been some unregistered machineguns that were found by the original owner's heirs. Mostly WWII bring backs and others from that era. Then the 1986 Hughes amendment further complicated things, as no new entries could be added to the registry. Personally, I would never take a chance on something like that because possession of an unregistered machinegun is a serious offense.

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I’m a U.S. citizen who has a 2nd Amendment Right as per our U.S. Constitution to own firearms which includes the AR-15.


Incorrect. You have an inalienable right as a born human to which the Constitution recognizes. Which includes the AR-15. 😉

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Sorry, I omitted *Inalienable* Right! Aussies at one time had the same Inalienable Right, but no longer. Our U.S. Constitution guarantees that Inalienable Right, but the leftists stomp on it as they stomp on our beloved U.S. Flag!

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It worked so well they have built interment camps for a cold....... and then manhunted the people that tried to leave them.

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Is this the 60 minutes where the pussy reporter fucking cries after shooting a goddamned rifle?

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I was kind of iffy on the AR-15 issue until the summer of 2020 when the BLM Lefties went all "Wild in the Streets".

If a mob ever comes to my neighborhood to punish me for my unearned White Privilege, I would like to have an AR-15 to protect my family, my home, and myself. 7 shots from my shotgun and 7 from my pistol wouldn't likely be enough to prevent being overrun by mobs of that size bent on violence.

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And guess who would be arrested! Don’t you know if you’re White you aren’t permitted to brandish a firearm in front of Blacks? Even in your own home! Do you recall the couple who were arrested in 2020 for having firearms when the mob broke down the gate to invade the couple’s neighborhood? Their weapons were confiscated. Another person was inside his house when he feared a mob of BLM thugs would approach his home. All he did was wave his firearm while he was still inside. He was arrested!

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Yes, probably, but better to be arrested than torn to pieces or lynched or burnt alive by a bunch of blue-haired freaks.

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The picture of that lady standing out front of her house with the piddling .380 and a mob of people screaming at her about her privilege and that they could take her house was pretty compelling evidence that a handgun ain’t gonna intimidate in the context of complete social breakdown like we saw in 2020-21

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No it won’t deter a mob due to the police being given orders by leftists to arrest people defending their property. The outcome of that incident is frightening for a supposed “free state”. She and her husband pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and relinquished their weapons! The Republican governor gave them a full pardon, but that didn’t compensate for the expense of defending themselves or the loss of their weapons.

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It's a good question, and at the heart of it is a gun culture a portion of the population subscribes to (that isn't relevant to homicides).

However...

https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/628fa76979c6973cb2c985cb/the-right-to-bear-arms-was-talking-about-MILITIAS?reply=629089b4d97d95678b1e5566

Despite the errant focus and rhetoric of the U.S. media, ideologues and politicians, only 2.6% of homicides are confirmed to involve rifles of any type, including so-called “assault” rifles or “weapons of war”, which is the most recent buzzword, while a whopping 45% are handguns, with the rest distributed between unarmed (e.g. hands, feet, etc.) at 4.3%, other weapons (blunt objects, poison, explosives, fire, narcotics, etc.) at 11.4%, bladed weapons at 10.6%, shotguns at 1.4%, and unknown firearms at 23.9%. Even if we assumed every unknown firearm (meaning the report didn’t specify) was a rifle of some type, that’s still just about 27%, but most likely the majority of those are handguns as well, since they’re easily concealed and much easier to get ahold of, both legally and illegally. Nearly twice as many people are killed with fists and feet than with confirmed rifles. Mull that over.

This means handguns probably make up 72% of all homicides. Rifles: 2.6%.

And that 2.6% is all rifles, not just so-called "military style" rifles. "Assault" rifles aren't nearly the problem the media and certain politicians make them out to be. Curtailing them with tighter laws would still help reduce these newsworthy events and save some lives, but that's an extremely small portion of homicides, so in the overall scope would barely make a dent and are statistically speaking largely immaterial (but still worth looking at in my opinion). Just to add some needed perspective to what's become a very skewed conversation. This fixation on semi-automatic high-capacity rifles is barely going to even begin to address the real problem, which is about mutual respect.
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Never believe. Always question. Rebuke belief, a.k.a. bias, a.k.a. groupthink, a.k.a. ideology, the bane of skeptical, logical reason.

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