I finally got around to watching this and I gotta say, it's certainly not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. Maybe it's because I'm more of a casual Star Wars fan, but despite its flaws it's still leagues better than the prequels. Everyone gets mad about Rain Johnson's writing, but who's to say Lucas would've delivered something any better?
share"Maybe it's because I'm more of a casual Star Wars fan"
Your opinion makes more sense. TLJ was made by casual SW fans for casual SW fans. Any big SW fan hates TLJ.
I know a lot of hardcore Star Wars fans who really love The Last Jedi, so that statement isn't accurate. Unless we're heading into a "No True Scotsman" kinda place.
And while I dislike The Last Jedi, and I have ranted about it a couple of times, it did have some interesting ideas it tried (though, ultimately failed) to explore. I do find it frustrating that fans rip it up and say it had nothing at all (which isn't true, there are good parts - they're just too few to matter), or who rip up Rian Johnson for trying something new and interesting. I respect the guy for trying. It might be impossible for anybody to make a great Star Wars film after the OT raised the expectations beyond practical heights.
Those aren’t real hardcore SW fans.
shareOkay, so we are going to go No True Scotsman.
These are people who have grown up with Star Wars - saw the OT in the theatre. Still love The Last Jedi. I've watched these people geek out hardcore over Star Wars, they dig on it big-time.
You can say they "aren't real hardcore SW fans", but if that's true, then the only definition of a "real hardcore SW fan" is "someone who doesn't like The Last Jedi", which isn't a good definition.
They’re not true star wars fans.
True Star Wars fans recognize that only the original trilogy is any good, and even then only the first two films approach greatness. Any other opinion is simply, well, incorrect.
I speak as a fan of the OT, who does not like the prequels nor the sequels: that is a No True Scotsman argument, it's a fallacy, and I think your criteria of Star Wars fan is based on your preferences, not as to whether or not somebody loves Star Wars. I think that's what makes them a fan.
It's my opinion that somebody who loves Star Wars is a fan. If they love Star Wars and think, say, Jar-Jar Binks is hilarious - they're a Star Wars fan with, uh...different tastes than I have. Some might even say "really, really bad taste and not a good sense of humour," but I wouldn't necessarily say they're less of a Star Wars fan.
I disagree that it’s a fallacy to consider the OT the best of the trilogy. It’s fine to subjectively enjoy the prequels and Disney movies for what they are: disposable junk. But objectively, a true Star Wars fan would realize that the first two movies are the best of the bunch and everything else is passable. I mean, if I asked for a filet mignon and you served me a plate of dried dog poop does that make you a true chef? The analogy only goes so far.
but I wouldn't necessarily say they're less of a Star Wars fan.
who rip up Rian Johnson for trying something new and interesting.
Well, yeah, he pulled back from stuff in The Last Jedi that would have been truly great.
But I think he tried the most interesting stuff with Luke. Red Letter Media talks about this a bit, that grumpy Luke is interesting because it takes us to a place that can shake us and challenge us as fans. I think (as did RLM) that Johnson bungled the execution, but he was going for this darkening of Star Wars that could have been really interesting.
Introducing arms dealers to make good/bad a little greyer. This wasn't followed up on or woven into the narrative enough. Again: a failed attempt, but an attempt nonetheless.
The notion that flyboys are bad for the Rebellion. Flyboy tactics were previously rewarded. Showing the value of teamwork over a lone hero is interesting. It was bungled by inconsistent application (when Poe does it: bad, when Rose does it: good).
You already mentioned Rey and Kylo. I thought they were going to join together, but try to blend good and evil and annihilate the Rebels AND the Imperials. I thought this was genius because it was an echo of Luke's story: you cannot entertain evil for even a moment. That minor lapse from Luke cause Ben to become Kylo. Could've been great...wasn't.
So, I think he was trying to go somewhere, but couldn't go there. Why not? Maybe he didn't have time (Two years, man! DEADLINE! We're Disney, baby! We already have the next 40 years of merch planned out!) Maybe he was forced to pull back by Disney (You kill Finn and we can't sell action figures! CHANGE YOUR SCRIPT!) The result sucked, but I do think he tried.
Knives Out is a great movie. I love Looper and Brick, too!
Well, I think the film has some great ideas and it squanders them all. It was an incredibly frustrating film to watch as a result. It doesn't help that it's bookended by a soft-reboot which bungled its backstory (despite having said backstory laid out in six films...) and a fetch quest-padded jumble that tries to undo everything this film set up.
There are so many reasons I think The Last Jedi is really bad, but it's not as bad as a lot of people say it is. It's just really, really frustrating, has a bunch of plot holes, has a meandering script, and trips up on its characterization of Luke (which is a pretty difficult pit to climb out of).
I'm not sure what Lucas would have done with the sequels. It's hard to imagine worse than what Disney came up with. My theory for awhile now is that Star Wars is Luke's story, which is why the only films that really work are the originals. They began and closed his arc perfectly. The prequels bungled hard, the sequels bungled hard, and I think it's because they're flailing for story.
Of course, there's also the notion that it might be impossible to please the fans. There is such hype and expectation with each film: who could hit that high of a bar?
And, yes, it's a lot better than the prequels...
That is a great summary: "It doesn't help that it's bookended by a soft-reboot which bungled its backstory (despite having said backstory laid out in six films...)" This is the key reason why TLJ seems so terrible; it reveals all the weaknesses of the film it followed; and then tries to take things in a new direction but ends up falling flat on its face. Then because of the backlash they panic and snap back to try to retcon everything in the last film.
TLJ was a bad film for all the reasons you point out; I think the reason though it is so hated is because there is this psychology going in which people convinced themselves that TFA was a great relaunch film and then when it is revealed how empty, devoid of logic, and soulless the new trilogy is; they blame the film that revealed it. They are angry at the film that broke their delusion; instead of the film that set up that delusion.
Hard to say what Lucas what have done; but we can be pretty sure he would not have treated the OT characters with such disrespect and not 'undermined' the accomplishments of the OT by resetting everything to zero. So as long as he didn't do that Lucas's ST would not be as bad as Disney's.
I don't know if I agree with this. I think, especially after the prequels, fans would have been happy with just about anything as long as it rubbed their nostalgia just right. TFA could have hit everything just fine if it would have just made some interesting new characters (that weren't either bad comic sidekicks, emo bad guy wanna be or annoyingly good at everything mary sue); made a few changes to characters and developed the backstory (Gap between ROTJ and TFA); and the big thing don't undermine the OT story by just creating a new emperor and empire while belittling and turning the OT heroes into pathetic losers. That is not too high of a bar to hit.
I agree %100 on your analysis why TLJ recieved the brunt of the backlash & have been saying essentially the same thing since it's release. TFA was perhaps the most hyped movie of all time. It was perfect storm of conditions to ensure that the film was going to be enthusiastically embraced no matter what.
We all remember the near manic fanaticism surrounding the release of TFA & the almost paranoid/terrified compulsion of critics & any social media personalities/channels with a sizable platform to have nothing but utter praise for TFA.
It's my belief that a good chunk of a OT loving fandom who built up an over the top resentment against the prequels felt especially compelled to enthusiastically embrace the Di$ney Trilogy, partially to spite the PT/Lucas.
TFA was one part a soft reimagining of ANH, thoroughly undermining the OT & those characters along the way & the rest was essentially peppered with false promises of "intetesting" things to later come in the form of empty, disjointed "mystery boxes"
TLJ was basically a slap in the face back to reality that completely laid bare the atrocious foundation that was set up in TFA. Most people were so invested in the lie & in their denial made it easier to lay the blame of TLJ which was in reality mostly just acting as a brutally honest messenger.
I think our analysis and conclusion of this are just about the same. In many ways you say it better than me. especially the idea about it being "enthusiastically embraced no matter what". That is the mentality people had going into it. One thing I will say; they marketed TFA perfectly (calling it a 'return to what you loved about star wars) and combined it perfectly with JJ's only ability which is to recreate visuals and aesthetics of beloved franchises. It milked nostalgia and manipulated the hate of the prequels perfectly.
I don't know if people had a manic fanaticism surrounding the release; they went in with reservation but had hope because of the marketing. It was the manipulation of nostalgia in the film that really togged on their 'feels'. But I agree that there was a bizarre compulsiveness to the social media and critical reviews. like everyone was terrified of saying anything bad about it. I remember reading so many reviews in which they praised it but the actual content they were saying about it being 'safe' and 'derivative of ANH' they should have been criticizing it. People would rate it 10 out of 10 or 5 stars even while passively admitting it was incredibly weak in characters and story.
Yes, many OT fans loved TFA despite the way it treated the OT characters and reset the victory of the OT to 0. How they could ignore what was done to Han but go nuts over what was done to Luke is very telling of their predetermined response to TFA.
One thing I would say; is TLJ was not just a slap in the face wake up call though; it too was actually a bad film and Rian Johnson did not purposefully slap people in the face, he seemed to legitimately want to create a nihilistic story that was utterly divorce from the themes of the franchise. it being a 'brutal messenger" was not intentional I don't think
Oh I by no means was alleging that TLJ wasn't a bad film. It most certainly was, although I am in the minority camp who thinks it was the "least terrible" which absolutely isn't saying much as I think they were all atrocious. TLJ at least has the excuse that it was largely terrible because it had no choice but to inherit an absolutely terrible, clusterf*ck of a foundation. TFA had no excuse whatsoever.
shareI have not actually watched TROS yet so I can't say how fully bad it is; I have read enough and watched enough reviews and analysis to say that of the 3 TLJ is likely the 'least terrible'. I fully agree that TLJ had a complete cluster**ck to get out of; but I don't think there was even an attempt to get out of it. TLJ was more like Rian Johnson didn't give a shit about star wars or TFA and decided to say f' it and do his complete own thing, which created a jarring disconnect from the other films in the series. JJ in his defense I think actually does like star wars and did care about it; he was just such a terribly incompetent story teller that he created an unbelievable mess of world building and continuity. He was so desperate to 'recreate' ANH he forgot he was suppose to be making a sequel and actual undermined the entire story arc of the OT in the process. So JJ i think had good intentions and made a mess. Rian Johnson had bad intentions and purposefully made the mess even worse; but not to spite the mess but because he was nihilistic about the mess. Kind of like he wanted to say "everything is a mess and nothing really matters".
shareI mostly agree about Rian Johnon's attitude being somewhat ambivalent about Star Wars & seeing how he was handed a complete clusterf*ck mess, essentially saying " screw it", and understandably dismissed or ignored JJ's maze of empty mystery BS he set up in the previous film, but failed to salvage together much of anything worthwhile of his own besides the way it was shot. For all the credit JJ for making things "look good", I think TLJ was the better shot film.
I disagree though that JJ had genuinely good intentions or respect for the franchise. I think he's a poor writer and a mediocre but "flashy" director who likes to pimp nostalgia and ideas from more talented filmmakers than himself. I don't think he "loved" Star Wars beyond "Ooh! That bright, shiny toy I always wanted to play with!" (i.e. the OT) He's a subpar talent but I don't think he's an oblivious idiot and I find it hard to believe that anyone who truly loves Star Wars could by accident, so egregiously disrespect and undermine the OT heroes along with entire OT narrative. I believe the OT characters were deliberately undermined from the onset in order to be supplanted by the new inferior Di$ney Star Wars characters & especially so regarding the new Ma'Rey Sue protagonist herself.
I believe JJ willingly pimped and exploited nostalgia to sell a product as ordained by corporate committee. In a way I actually respect Johnson's more honest indifference more than JJ's disingenuous pandering.
Hmm that is an interesting take. I do hate what JJ did more than what Rian did; usually I don't care much about people's intentions, so even if I think JJ had better intentions he still made a worse film; the over realiance on mystery box instead of plot building alone makes TFA an unforgivable mess; let alone the way it slaps the OT's plot resolution in the face. But I don't know if I agree that TLJ was shot better. The frame rate and pacing was better I agree; but the actual camera work is worse. For example in TFA you can't really tell how awkward Daisy is with Action scenes. The clever camera work hides this. In TLJ it is glaringly obvious she can't do action scenes well. There are more examples of this but this one came to mind first.
Good point about JJ not being an idiot; maybe the 'love' he boasted about the OT was just part of the marketing gimmick. I guess it depends on how much of it was his ideas; or if he is just weak and caved to the committee's demands. I really don't know, but the result is TFA is by far the worse and most egregious slap in the face to the OT; and that came to full reveal in TLJ and came full completion in TROS (by even undoing the emperor's death). That has to be the ultimate insult, the OT hereos couldn't get the job right but that super awesome Ma'Rey Sue can one woman army it and do what that pathetic Luke and Vader could not do, kill the emperor and bring a 'true' peace to the galaxy. It is a real 'wonder' why fans don't just immediately grovel at her share awesomeness.
I don't know which is worse; the indifference or the pandering; I can only say which product was worse and I think it is definitely TFA that is the worse product; at least TFA had a chance at being something. TLJ was an unfortunate middle child that had no real foundation to build on and also no direction to go in. What the hell was Johnson even supposed to do with that; start over and do the world building TFA should have done?
I'm largely with you on all of that. Maybe it's also just my personal taste but I absolutely hated JJ's rapid fire, ADHD pacing & I think the flaws in Daisy Riddley's ability to do fight scenes was more visible in TLJ mostly just because she did a lot more of it. Still I found her awkward, "stabby" lightsaber fight in TFA to be atrocious. JJ's quick cuts didn't save it for me.
It's quite depressing being reminded by how much JJ's bringing back the emperor was pretty much the final nail in the coffin in undermining the OT.... and the PT for that matter. Looking at the narrative of TFA & TROS together as a whole (TLJ now just seems like an empty void that was largely ignored), I find it difficult to imagine a bigger slap in the face to the Lucas era films.
Good point; I think the fast frame rate in TFA was much worse than in TLJ; but the actual camera work of TFA is better; if JJ just would have held the frames longer.
Yes that is true, in terms of impact to the complete narrative of Star Wars, TLJ now feels like an empty void that neither hurts nor helps the complete saga; TFA and TROS is where all the real lasting damage comes from.
The thing I find awesome is your Star Wars franchise was destroyed. You toxic fans deserved this. It will never be back to good quality and that is a great thing. I laugh so hard at posts like this. Star Wars is trash and it was always overrated trash. It had it's time now it is time for better products.
shareWhat I would consider "toxic fans" were the fans so obsessed with their childhood love of the OT that they relentlessly bashed the PT & George Lucas for years for not meeting their expectations, doing so to the point that Lucas himself admitted that it played a large part in why he sold his franchise to Di$ney who had no deep investment or respect for the property outside of how much money they could make off of it.Those same toxic fans celebrated that decision & have certainly reaped what they sowed with the avalanche of soulless, uninspired garbage that Di$ney has served them.
Unfortunately those of us who didn't bash Lucas and appreciated what tried to do with his franchise have to suffer along with those toxic fans who helped to bring about the current state of affairs with Di$ney Star Wars or simply detach ourselves from it and enjoy Star Wars for what it used to be.
To which honestly I am glad. I am happy Star Wars got bought by Disney and you guys will continuously moan about how great it used to be. Time to grow up your franchise is dead and thank God!
shareFor any spectator sport you know, can you think of any time in history when a team lost and the manager blamed the fan's for the team's performance?
shareHype does not guarantee a movie getting a positive response. The Phantom Menace got plenty of hype, for example.
shareThat is significantly different. with TPM there was no negative hype to 'bounce' back from. TPM had no PT that left fans jaded and nasty for Lucas to exploit and manipulate like TFA had. You know that is what they did to because all you had to do was look at the marketing. Constant subtle jabs at Lucas and the prequels and this 'promise' of 'we are going to give you what you loved about the OT and nothing of what you hated in the PT'.
shareAlso about TPM, there tends to be a lot or rewriting of history regarding how it was initially received. The reality is the backlash against the TPM was gradual. I was born after the OT had come and gone but I'm old enough to remember that early on TPM was received largely quite positively with the exception of Jar Jar Binks who almost no one but very young children seemed to like & perhaps to a much lesser extent Jake LLoyd's performance. The criticisms grew over the years. But regardless like arflexit said, it was a different situation as fans didn't have the extra incentive then of embracing it out of spite towards a previous disappointment.
shareI sense Deja-vu...
"TFA was perhaps the most hyped movie of all time."
Remember the hype around the release of The Phantom Menace? And then Jar Jar Binks appeared. Fans made a documentary, 'The people vs George Lucas' and on the release of the first LoTR movie, a campaign set up to get Peter Jackson to direct the last of the prequels. Yet despite all this I consider them far better than the Disney trilogy for 2 basic reasons:
-A story that spans all 3 movies
-Character development (or at least an attempt at character development)
And having said that, I remember hating PTM while watching it in the cinema than I did TFA. My 2c worth.
The prequels tried to build a world and failed. The Disney movies tried to please everyone (the committee logic) and failed.
Did the prequels not have a story that spans all three movies? I didn't like the story, but it's still there.
I'd definitely say an attempt at character development. Anakin's character arc is the main point of the prequels and it drops the ball faster than a shop teacher trying to break into juggling with greased bowling pins.
It did build a world but more like Willy Wonka designed it; all eye candy and sterile. The story covered the clone wars and Anakin's rise and turning, but dear god the script and acting really needed reworking..
shareEven the story was, to me, so very humdrum. It was trying for slick political machinations, but fell far short of an exemplary version of that (I'm talking about just the bare-bones outline stuff).
Aaron Sorkin writes political machinery really, really well. So, if he's a high bar for this kind of thing, how far below Sorkin were the prequels? Bedrock. No Flintstones. Just bedrock.
Contrast this to Star Wars: if the original trilogy was compared to top-level action-adventure serials or fairy tales, how would they stack up? Really well.
The dialogue was awful, yes, but the story was purportedly about the fall of a hero and this political maneuvering that dowses the light in the galaxy. But on a character study level, it ain't no Taxi Driver, Breaking Bad, or even The Mission. While on a political thriller level it can't hold a candle to The West Wing, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, or anything like that.
Remember the hype around the release of The Phantom Menace? And then Jar Jar Binks appeared. Fans made a documentary, 'The people vs George Lucas' and on the release of the first LoTR movie, a campaign set up to get Peter Jackson to direct the last of the prequels.
People didn't really have the means to spread their distain about the prequels on the internet simply because the movies were released when dial-up modems were normal and you couldn't even sneeze without an AOL trial CD falling out.
What I haven't really seen here is opinions from anyone new to the SW universe. Most (all?) of the posters now are probably in the same age bracket having seen the originals in the cinema.
The vocal segment of fans were spreading their angst about the prequels just fine actually. It had nothing to do with dial up internet. The angst just became more pronounced over time, with years to fester & stew over their expectations not being met.
shareIt just became easier to spread via the internet as it was easier to find ppl with the same opinions (and flame those who disagrees *grin*. Also, Lucas was obsessed with tweaking the OT, releasing it on video, which I remember advertised as 'limited edition, then it's gone forever.' at least until DVDs appeared.
shareIt's not as bad as a lot of people say it is... has a bunch of plot holes, has a meandering script, and trips up on its characterization of Luke
Lucas's ideas for a sequel trilogy sounded kind of funky, but it would have been more interesting than the Disney trilogy.
shareThey ruined luke and killed ackbar off in a disrespectful way. Yeah it is as bad as they say
shareYes,....it is.
shareThe way I see it; TLJ is like a special high school music program that is going to honor a distinguished alumni but the drama of the current high school students gets in the way and ruins the program.
share