I thought Marvel was tapping into this new diversity experiment thing. Are the filmmakers racist?
shareIf Marvel are suddenly being true to the comics, why arent they true to Thor characters?
Valkyrie: https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/1098041.jpg
Heimdall: https://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//universe3zx/images/d/d1/Heimdall-OHOTMUME.jpg
true.
But, you see, the SJW, BLM, honey-boo-boo's would lose their shit if they saw white characters in Black Panther.
Why not?
shareWhy? I asked first.
shareIt's only an issue if a cast is made up of predominantly white males. The libtard snowflakes turn a deaf ear on anything else. Bunch of hypocritical douchebags.
shareThat seems to be the consensus. Like how they criticize Christians for not baking a wedding cake for a gay couple, but pretend that gay people aren't being thrown off rooftops in the name of Islam.
Or how women are oppressed because men said "hi" to them as they walked for ten hours down the streets of New York, but having battery acid thrown in their faces is just "cultural relativism".
Or like how Hitler is objectively the worst kind of evil because he killed a lot of people, but Che Guevara and Fidel Castro are heroic freedom fighters that just had to crack a few eggs in the process.
Or like how JK Rowling and George Clooney think we should take in more refugees than society can sustain and anyone who questions it is a racist bigot, but neither want to give up a single one of their 20+ rooms in their multi-million dollar villas that are protected by 24 hour surveillance in gated communities.
Or like how Hollywood loves to chant and preach about how women should be respected and admired and call out Trump for his disgusting remarks in the locker room, but then turn around and protect known predators like Polanski, Weinstein, and Spacey in their own backyard. They certainly had no problem submitting to the big bad patriarchy they love to shun when it suited them did they?
Liberals love the sound of their own voices but when time comes to practice what they preach they run for the hills.
@not_a_virus.exe
This comment is so perfect, I wish I could send you cookies.
Liberals don't want to hear the truth you're spitting. Normal people know EVERYTHING you said was spot on though.
shareWhy? Because Marvel has had enough all-white movies that it's only fair.
But the real reason that they (and Star Wars) are pushing diversity is to make money. They've got the white male fanboy demographic nailed down, now they want more people who aren't white males going to Marvel movies. That's the real reason they're putting out "Black Panther" and "Captain Marvel", huge corporations putting out projects that cost hundreds of millions of dollars don't actually give a rat's ass about political correctness.
Sorry to inform you, but there isn't this imaginary quota you're alleging exists where Marvel can't go over the maximum white characters threshold. If they didn't have a quota in place for their comic books, why do they have one for those comic book characters on screen?
Again, how are they pushing for diversity if the film has an all-black cast?
Sigh. My first line was actually a joke, maybe you've heard of them?
But I'm not joking when I say that if Marvel wants to draw large non-fanboy demographics to their films, they do need to do more than add diverse actors to their supporting casts, they need to make entire films designed to appeal to other demographics and they're doing it. Marvel wants everyone's money, they want every person of every age, color, sex, and nationality on Earth going to their films!
Jokes don't translate very well in text so maybe you could have gone out of your way to stipulate what it was? But I doubt you're sincere anyway. "It was just a joke" is often just a cheap copout response to get out of having to explain yourself
If their cinephile audience is anything like their comic book audience, I would be really careful about just how far they push their pandering to the "non-fanboy" demographics. It could backfire terribly.
http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/03/marvel-female-diverse-characters-hurting/
Marvel Films has been very very VERY careful on that front. Ten years of careful, since "Iron Man" hit they've put out film after film after film with white male leads.
Which has been noticeable, since their genre competitors gave been making fantastic amounts of money with films starring people like Gal Gadot, Daisy Ridley, Will Smith, etc. It just won't do to be shown up be the asshats who made "Suicide Squad", even in the tiniest ways. It really is time for Marvel to try something new.
"Sigh. My first line was actually a joke, maybe you've heard of them?"
When you joke like you only have your self to blame when no one takes you serious.
I always hate the "Big dummy I wasn't being serioius when I said that come back.
It's called Black Panther. That might have something to do with it!
shareIt doesn't. They sure as hell didn't flinch on making Iron MAN a girl did they?
shareWhen did that happen?
sharehttps://www.theverge.com/2016/8/22/12582794/iron-man-riri-williams-ironheart
Don't forget that Thor became female, Spider-man is black, Captain America is black (Falcon), Ms. Marvel is Muslim, etc. etc. in that little diverse alternative universe they've made. See the pattern? Instead of writing new characters they're just replacing established white characters by killing them off or whatnot.
So then, six months after this Black Panther movie is released, we can count on a vertically-challenged Korean lesbian playing the Black Panther in the first reboot.
shareYou couldn't be more WRONG.
shareDiversity does mean variety and isn't an experiment. Just what are you "trying" to say?
I thought Marvel was tapping into this new diversity experiment thing. Are the filmmakers racist?Well you thought wrongly. Marvel's Black Panther movie is based on a character of their own creation that first appeared in 1966 on the pages of the Fantastic Four. That little bit of info is public knowledge which I'm pretty sure you were already aware of based on the tenor of your question. You knew the answer and want posters to disprove the negative. Why did you THINK marvel was tapping into this New diversity?
Except again, back to Thor, all the characters were white on page, and yet some turned black on screen. So I ask again, why the lack of diversity? Why is it ok to make Norse gods black when they were white in the comic, but not ok to make Africans white in Black Panther?
shareAs for Thor's universe: How exactly would gods have a human-specific cultural heritage?
Wakanda is an insular country, so its people seem to be one culture and probably strongly shared bloodlines. They're also humans on Earth.
I'm not sure, why don't you ask Marvel? They seemed to have no problem giving them human specific character traits in the comic didn't they?
Also, Wakanda is a fictional country. So why would it have a native black population? Why is Marvel unable to bend the rules for Black Panther in the way they they have no problem doing so for the fictional world of Asgard?
So you can't comprehend the difference between "fictional African country of humans" and "fictional non-Earthly realm of non-human gods"?
shareNo. I can't. They're both fictional. Why does a fictional country of Africans mean there has to be a homogeneous population of blacks? Zimbabwe has more diversity than Wakanda and that's a REAL country. Explain that.
shareSo you refuse to admit that extraterrestrial gods with fantasy backgrounds are notably different from terrestrial humans that come from the same country. Exactly what I expected.
shareExplain how they're notably different. You still haven't done that. I'm still waiting for a logical explanation from you to why the homogeneous population of humans in a FICTIONAL African country needs to remain homogeneous, but the homogeneous population of Norse Gods in a FICTIONAL mythological world does NOT. The hypocrisy is oosing from your fingertips. Give me a good decent explanation on how your head can work in two completely different directions whil still desperately trying to arrive at the same point. The only one digging their hole here is you.
share"Explain how they're notably different."
Being "fictional" does not erase all differences between concepts, yet that seems to be your entire argument. The desperation is obvious.
So... you want me to explain how humans are different from gods, how an African cultural heritage is different from vague mythology backgrounds, and how an Earth-bound country is different from a fantasy realm far away from Earth?
Actually, I think I just did explain it. AGAIN.
To fail to understand these differences would require a pretty major mental deficiency.
I doubt that, though. You're being deliberately dishonest, which is completely expected from you. I just wanted to make sure.
This part of the discussion is now finished, so I'll only focus on the other discussion below. It's easier for both of us that way.
"Being "fictional" does not erase all differences between concepts, yet that seems to be your entire argument. The desperation is obvious."
That's EXACTLY what it does and you know DAMN well that's the case. There's no clearer desperation than seeing you running loops around your argument for the sake of making it.
"So... you want me to explain how humans are different from gods, how an African cultural heritage is different from vague mythology backgrounds, and how an Earth-bound country is different from a fantasy realm far away from Earth?"
Yes. I do. Explain why it makes sense to you that a fictional tribe of humans from a fictional country in Africa, is somehow on a different playing field than a fictional tribe of gods from a fictional world. Explain. And what on earth makes you think that the world of Norse mythology is vague? All you have to do is read the bloody mythos. Then it will no longer be vague. Scandinavians have worshipped these gods for thousands of years. That's THEIR heritage. Why do you seemingly have no problem throwing their heritage and religion under the bus when it accommodates you but will bend over backwards defending a fictional world that didn't exist prior to 1966?
"Actually, I think I just did explain it. AGAIN."
Well you didn't. I think the bigger problem here is you thinking in general.
"This part of the discussion is now finished, so I'll only focus on the other discussion below. It's easier for both of us that way."
Easier for you you mean. Of course you're going to weasel your way out of this one. You know you have no argument. No matter how many times I try to pry an honest answer out of you it will never happen. Because you know you're wrong.
"That's EXACTLY what it does and you know DAMN well that's the case."
Wrong. If everything in fiction was the same simply by being fiction, then there would be no reason to write fiction whatsoever.
Again, you're being deliberately and blatantly dishonest, and you very clearly know it, which is why you are getting so triggered.
Hey wait:
Explain why it makes sense to you that a fictional tribe of humans from a fictional country in Africa, is somehow on a different playing field than a fictional tribe of gods from a fictional world.
But you never defined what you were asking in your opening post nor expanded on any of your statements nor answered my questions.
***
Except again, back to Thor, all the characters were white on page, and yet some turned black on screen. So I ask again, why the lack of diversity? Why is it ok to make Norse gods black when they were white in the comic, but not ok to make Africans white in Black Panther?***
No all of the characters were NOT white on the page (Hogun the Grim) and to the best of my knowledge anyway Characters depicted don't represent actual people and are the property of Marvel and can be drawn, illustrated, inked and colored any way they chose fit. They didn't turn black on the page and they aren't white on the page. They have varying degrees of melanin and or pigment. In your definition what are you suggesting or stating? You think they represent different races? What races were they on the pages of marvel print canon? What races are they on the screen? If they are Aesir in print they are Aesir on screen. What is it you are objecting to anyway?
You still haven't defined what a lack of Diversity is that you are referring to? Make a definitive statement and we will discuss it.
Why is it ok to make Norse gods black when they were white in the comic, but not ok to make Africans white in Black Panther?They aren't Norse Gods and they aren't 'White" by any standard of what you define "White" to mean. They may be Marvel's representation of Norse Gods and Marvel has decided to depict them as they see fit. How do you know that Norse Gods are even blonde? They aren't real historical people but you do know that already.
and were included in that Seminal first introduction of Black Panther. So why do you want Africans to be depicted as Non-Africans? There are indeed settlers in Africa who are Non-Africans and they have been depicted in print form within the pages of Black Panther from the beginning. Am I missing something?
shareBy that same logic, Wakandans aren't "real" in that sense either, Wakanda is a fictional country. So why are they all black? Why can't Wakanda have verying degrees in melanin in the same way Asdgard can? The ball is entirely in Marvel's court to decide how they depict their characters, so why do fictional characters from Asgard, that were white in the comics, suddenly turn black on screen? And why does the same not apply to the fictional world of Wakanda?
shareBy that same logic, Wakandans aren't "real" in that sense either, Wakanda is a fictional country. So why are they all black? Why can't Wakanda have verying degrees in melanin in the same way Asdgard can? The ball is entirely in Marvel's court to decide how they depict their characters, so why do fictional characters from Asgard, that were white in the comics, suddenly turn black on screen? And why does the same not apply to the fictional world of Wakanda?I defined for you what the Marvel reality is. Asgardians are not based on real people. Wakandans are based on people from Africa. What part of that definition don't you understand? Wakandans are a fictional people from Africa and Marvel has chosen to depict them with dark skin. What aspects of Africa and the indigenous people are you confused by? Marvel also depicted and included other characters of lighter tones within their printed page. What is wrong with their continuity, decision and logic? Wakanda does show varying degrees of melanin characters within their books and on screen. In Avengers:Infinty War there is a lineup of combatants on one side represented by many shades of melanin and combatants on the other side, The Brood, that appear to be represented by a single hue. I'm not familiar if the Brood vary in color though but they do vary in size. They all do seem to have 6 limbs though. share
Asgardians are based on Norse mythology. A mythology that derives from the ancient viking tribes of Scandinavia. What part of that definition don't you understand? How the hell can you possibly argue that a fictional country in Africa remain homogeneous, but a fictional mythology in Scandinavia not? How on earth does your brain function in two completely alternative paths?
shareAsgardians are based on Norse mythology. A mythology that derives from the ancient viking tribes of Scandinavia. What part of that definition don't you understand? How the hell can you possibly argue that a fictional country in Africa remain homogeneous, but a fictional mythology in Scandinavia not? How on earth does your brain function in two completely alternative paths?Asgardians are partially based on Norse mythology and Stan and Jack creatively decided to pick and choose which aspects they wanted to portray. Stan and Jack decidedly picked Africa which is based on real humans. Asgard is not based on real people. Asgardians are not Scandanavians, nor are Asgardians the descendants of the Germanic tribes or Scandanavians. It is you who wrongly insist that fictional and mythological Asgardians are homogeneous when they are not descendants of man. Asgardians are not of Human Taxonomy. Wakandans are as they are based on Africans as created by Stan and Jack. They are not based on African mythos either or African folklore. Wakandans are based on the same creative impulses from those two that created Thor and Asgardians. share
So white people aren't real humans then? You still haven't explained how a fictional world in Africa needs to remain loyal to the comic, but a fictional world in in Norse mythology doesnt. These characters were white in the comic, so why are they black in the movie? And why is it so imperative that the black characters in the black panther comic, remain black in the movie? There's a blatant hypocrisy that you still have not worked out.
share[deleted]
The ball is entirely in Marvel's court to decide how they depict their characters, so why do fictional characters from Asgard, that were white in the comics, suddenly turn black on screen? And why does the same not apply to the fictional world of Wakanda?You've never demonstrated that Marvel has depicted Asgardians as "White" or what that even means for Marvel. Heimdall has changed height and hair color but he can't change skin tone? What does white and black mean when it comes to Asgard and Marvel that so triggers you?
Based on Norse mythology. Are you dense? Do I really need to explain that to you? Norse mythology comes from Scandinavians. Scandinavians are white. That's why Norse gods are white. How could that not be any clearer?
shareBased on Norse mythology. Are you dense? Do I really need to explain that to you? Norse mythology comes from Scandinavians. Scandinavians are white. That's why Norse gods are white. How could that not be any clearer?And Marvel used parts of Norse mythology and Norse Mythology isn't based on humans. It was created by humans who crafted their creations as they saw fit. Stan Lee is Caucasian and so was Jack Kirby. Both men are human and created a mythology similar to Norse and populated it with many characters. Neither Stan nor Jack were Scandinavians. Both were Jewish if I am not mistaken.
Norse mythology never "morphed over into Christian folklore" I don't even know what planet you're living on at this point to make such an absurd argument. Scandinavians adopted Christianity, it's not like Norse paganism just up and out of nowhere "became" Christian. Paganism is one thing, Christianity is another. Infact if ANYTHING, you could make the argument that CHRISTIANITY is the one that became pagan. You know the whole Christmas tree thing? Pagan. Easter? Pagan. Halloween? Pagan. Mistletoe? Pagan. Elves? Pagan. In the case of Santa Claus, he's supposed to represent Odin, and his eight reindeer each represent a leg from Odin's horse Sleipnir. Every tradition that western society celebrates originated from Germanic/Pagan mythology.
You want to know what Christian folklore is? Angels. That's it. And even then you can argue that they're just a spinoff from Valkyries.
Anyway, as far as Marvel's Norse gods are concerned, they have ALWAYS been white. Any simple google search will show you how they looked like in the comic. How you could be so dense as to deny this is dishonest.
Yes the peoples reading, using, worshiping, researching and maybe still honoring Norse Mythology had indeed borrowed from and have been impacted by Christianity.
The Prose Edda features layers of euhemerization, a process in which deities and supernatural beings are presented as having been either actual, magic-wielding human beings who have been deified in time or beings demonized by way of Christian mythology.[2] Texts such as Heimskringla, composed in the 13th century by Snorri and Gesta Danorum, composed in Latin by Saxo Grammaticus in Denmark in the 12th century, are the results of heavy amounts of euhemerization.[3]I never said that Norse mythology "became" Christian mythology and paganism is deeply practiced by those who use religion as a way to structure their lives. Doesn't make the practice right or wrong. Lee and Kirby weren't creating or spreading a religion they were telling stories. The stories that they chose to tell about their version of Asgard weren't based on Humans or Racial constructs that are created by Humans. Asgard reflects Midgard and Midgard reflects Asgard. All manner of humanoids are represented in Midgard which means, in your context, Earth. What is it about skin-tone and the Human race that is reflected in Marvel's adapted Norse Mythology that so triggers you? share
You keep on suggesting that skin-tone is irrelevant because Norse mythology was created to imitate Earth. And earthly skin-tones come in all manner of colors so why restrict Norse moythology to just one? Correct? So then why does that same logic not apply to a fictional country in Africa? Why can't a white person be African as well? There's more diversity in Zimbabwe and Nigeria than there is in Wakanda. Why? Oh because Stan Lee wrote them that way? He also wrote Heimdhal and Valkyrie as white characters too. Didn't seem to stop diversity from rearing its progressive head though.
shareI have never stated that Skin-Tone is irrelevant. It is you who insist that any changes in what you perceive as relevant should be applied everywhere that you deem they should apply without context and without meaning.
The operative term for you to understand is "False Equivalency". You want to equate everything about Asgard to everything about Wakanda and the two aren't equal. You want to denigrate why Stan Lee and Jack Kirby made their creations by ascribing a negative narrative to what they did.
Norse mythology is open ended based on Stan and Jack's representation. Wakanda was not. What Stan and Jack did though was represent humanity within their pages when they realized that they had inelegantly excluded the reality around them. Marvel started including when they realized that they had excluded for no reason besides ignorance.
You want your definition of Diversity to be a bad thing or a sinister plot that takes something away from one group and gives it to another group.
Diversity is a word which indicates the variety, or ranges of differences which exist in a group. In sociology and politics regarding multiculturalism.
Marvel never excluded non-"whites" from the story of Black Panther. But you'd have them arbitrarily make Africans who are Dark skinned be white because historically they have been willfully or ignorantly shown to always have been people of color?! This is your position?
You've yet to prove that the words Progressive and Diversity are pejoratives for any other reason besides because you say so.
The two are identical in every sense of the word. There's no false equivalency here. That's the problem you keep on missing. You don't get to suggest that it's ok to stay true to a fictional country that doesn't exist, but don't get to follow the same rules in a fictional world that doesn't exist. That's called a double standard.
And my position is, there's no reason in the world that the entire cast of Black Panther needs to be black for the exact same reason that the entire cast of Thor needs to be white. You can't suggest that Marvel is "being loyal to a fictional universe" and then in the same breath suggest it doesn't need to work that same way for the other. That's hypocrisy. There's no room for it here. You're running circles around your argument.
The two are not identical in every sense of the word and you have never even stated HOW they are identical. I pointed out to you why and how they are dissimilar but your only response is, "Uh-uhnnnn, yes they are! Because I say so". I haven't missed a thing.
Let's start at the beginning of your fallacy. You start by asking, in a forum for a Black Panther movie, "Why the All-Black cast?". It then is pointed out to you that the cast is so decidedly NOT all black. You then tip your toe into some alleged Diversity experiment conspiracy when by sheer production on screen for BP the cast is Diverse and varied. You then question the motives of the filmmakers by asking if they are racist and it is YOU suggesting that Marvel was tapping into the Diversity experiment. I pointed out to you BP is based on a 1966 introduction and the movie is clearly organic to Marvel's catalog so no it wasn't a Diversity experiment now in 2017-2018. You never explained HOW the filmmakers are being racist but you threw it out there in such a disingenuous way trying to mask your true bias. There is no Double Standard in my argument or discussion with you. There is no accountability for your statements, questions and suggestions that are backed up with truth, honesty or fact. Just your "Feelings" which you are entitled to but aren't real. You then go on this long obfuscation of trying to equate Asgard with Wakanda and the two aren't even remotely similar besides being works of fiction. You continue to dismiss all context regarding Norse mythology, Asgard, Stan lee and Jack Kirby rather than provide some basis for what you state. I'm not creating any rules it is you who can't refute the facts or the context. My name isn't Stan Lee nor is it Jack Kirby.
next
Let's address your accusation of a Double Standard. I've never stated that it is okay to stay true to the Lee+Kirby creation of the Fictional country of Wakanda versus not staying true to the Lee+Kirby creation of a Fictional Asgard. I've even stated what the Lee+Kirby history, roots and context were. You just don't like them. I've even given you possible reasons. Again, where is the Double Standard?
And my position is, there's no reason in the world that the entire cast of Black Panther needs to be black for the exact same reason that the entire cast of Thor needs to be white.The entire cast for Black Panther is NOT Black. Stop saying that. It isn't true and never was true just because you FEEL that it is. I even asked you to more directly ask the question that you are trying to answer and we could talk about it but you have refused. The entire cast of Thor isn't WHITE either. And for Asgard what does the fact of the people representing the Aesir being White even mean? Is that what you are trying to say? The people of Wakanda are based on Africans who have a particular skin tone. What are the denizens of Marvel's Asgard based on. Every reasoning that you've been presented you don't understand and your continuing to demand that I answer a question that isn't true is the height of diversion. I've answered your question several times and you've yet to defend your fallacy.
You can't suggest that Marvel is "being loyal to a fictional universe" and then in the same breath suggest it doesn't need to work that same way for the other. That's hypocrisy. There's no room for it here. You're running circles around your argument.You continue to prop up these straw men arguments without defending your argument. You don't like the fact Heimdall is being played by Idris Elba but can't come up with a reason to why he can't be played by Idris Elba. I've given you a reason to why it is plausible. The people of the Aesir as created by Marvel can be any skin tone that Marvel desires because in the Marvel world the people of the Aesir aren't defined by skin tones. The people of Wakanda as defined by Marvel are from Africa and all have similar skin tones. You're just going to have to deal with that. I have no double standard and the false Equivalency is yours to disprove and not because I say so but because they are NOT the same. I've stated a case as to why the two fictions have their contextual rationales. All you've done is say, "unh-uhhhnnnn, you're wrong and I'm right". If you're right show me why and HOW you are right.
I've already GIVEN you the reason why he can;t be played by Idris Elba. Because he's NOT BLACK IN THE COMIC! How long must you parade around like I haven;t explained myself when I've done so SEVERAL times throughout this thread? The whole argument is based on the hypocrisy of making white characters black, but keeping black characters black. I can only say it so many times. You just aren't listening.
You've shown me the cast names of white actors portraying white characters. Now show me that cast names of white actors portraying black characters. I'm still waiting. You keep on hiding behind "contextual worlds" and "Marvel, freedom, write what they want". And yet when they had that freedom, they chose to do it by making Norse gods white. and your defense to that is "hurr durr but norse gods don't exist in reality so they can be made of gummi drops if necessary". Yeah, they could be, but they weren't were they? They were still white.
You've never answered your own question or supported your own fallacy.
You can respond to your own statements any way you'd like but please provide a response:
Is the Entire cast of BP All-Black?
Is Marvel experimenting with Diversity?
Are the filmmakers for BP Racist?
Now to your long rant, diatribe non-answer:
Next:
I'll wait for my answer.
The denizens of Marvels Asgard as based on those same denizens in the comic book. I've explained this to you twenty times now. They are white. Don't believe me?
This is Valkyrie in the comic: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/d7/94/e4d794b4b4fad0106c8fb4f06fd70b2f.jpg
This is Heimdall in the comic: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/77/82/797782a020132600ad96b4f054ffdee3.jpg
In what world are you living in, that those characters are NOT WHITE? They're as white as snow for Christ's sake. So explain to me how they suddenly turned black in the film.
And stop being so dishonest as to continue using white actors portraying white characters in Black Panther. You know DAMN well that's not what I'm arguing. All you're doing is wasting time The focus is on white characters that turned black in Thor, and why black characters can't turn white in Black Panther. Stop being dishonest.
Google can not search Asgard. How pedestrian of you to think so. At a point in time the people of the Earth in Catholic churches only represented Angels and humans as only being of fair skin. Did that mean that darker skinned people didn't exist?
So your deal is that someone decided to exclusively represent everyone on Midgard (out of ignorance), I mean on earth, of only having only one hair color and one skin tone. And because, out of ignorance and or a mistake in interpretation that you feel you are stuck with that portrayal and representation?
It is not a mistake of representation or exclusion that the indigenous natives of Africa in a story that is based on Africans have the same skin color or varying shades of the same skin color which is not representative of Caucasoids. Marvel's Asgard represents all of humans as humanity and Africa represents all of Africans as human.
So you are upset that some people in Marvel's Thor:Ragnarok are shown as non-"white" yet totally disregard that some people that are shown in Marvel's Black Panther are very much indeed shown as white?
The Cast of Black Panther are NOT all white. Stop saying that!
How in the living hell can you suggest that the characters created by ancient nords just happened to make these characters white "out of ignorance"? Are you insane? The mythology ORIGINATED in Scandinavia! The homogeneous population of Scandinavia is WHITE. THEIR characters are white because THEY are.
Also, which characters in Black panther are shown as white? Except for the ones that were white in the comic of course.
How in the living hell can you suggest that the characters created by ancient nords just happened to make these characters white "out of ignorance"? Are you insane?I never suggested that. Marvel's Lee+Kirby creation of Asgard aren't Norse, they aren't Nords, they aren't Scandanavian, they aren't created by Nords, they aren't humans and are not from Earth.
"I never suggested that. Marvel's Lee+Kirby creation of Asgard aren't Norse, they aren't Nords, they aren't Scandanavian, they eren't created by Nords, they aren't humans and are not from Earth."
virus literally told me that fictional gods are no different, conceptually, from fictional humans, and thus there is no reason to distinguish between them. Simply because they're fictional. He literally stated that, and confirmed it when I asked again to make sure.
Of course, then he refused to address the point when I said that his logic meant there is no difference between a fictional black Asgardian and a fictional white Asgardian.
Frogarama,
I thoroughly understand your frustration in trying to converse with not_a_virus.exe. In maintaining the futility of his position, he (or she) I don't know WHAT it is, will make false and purely made up statements to defend himself. Then comes the attacks and name calling when the frustration builds. It builds NOT because you are right but it is the refuge of the wrong and the powerless. He/She will never ever acknowledge that they have NO idea what they are talking about because they have an agenda and a bias that goes well beyond Idris Elba playing Heimdall and Tessa Thompson playing a Valkyrie.
He/She/It won't concede but there is something very valuable in your exchange with He/She/It in that any one who cares to read the exchange might very well learn something about themselves. Keep being honest.
Merry Christmas.
This topic is also valuable for others who come here as Black Panther's release date nears, so they can see exactly how virus operates. As I promised him, if it's not already visible, I will bump this topic right after the movie comes out.
Merry Christmas to you as well!
You literally did. We aren't talking about the Lee/Kirby gods right now, I'm referring to your earlier point here: "At a point in time the people of the Earth in Catholic churches only represented Angels and humans as only being of fair skin. Did that mean that darker skinned people didn't exist?"
You are inferring that the catholic church only represented angels as having fair skin out of ignorance. Applying the same kind of ignorance to a tribe of Nords who only represented their gods as having fair skin also. And the idea that Nords created their own myths and legends around their own in-groups out of ignorance is shameful. Every religion created its own mythos around their own in-groups.
And I know that Marvel's Asgard is separate from Norse mythology. We've established that ages ago, we're talking about two different mythologies simultaneously. You're confusing things. I'm not arguing that the characters in Thor need to stay white because they were white in the mythology, I'm saying they need to remain white because they were white in the COMIC. I've already shown you how both Heimdall and Valkyrie were white in the comic books. This isn't about the mythology here, it's about the consistency of the canon in the COMIC. Again, in the COMIC, they were white. So why do you keep on bringing up trivialities like how they aren't human? What is that supposed to prove? For a non human race of beings, they did a bang up job of imitating the Caucasian race. Stop being disingenuous.
Because Klaw is WHITE in both the comic and the film. Him being a white black panther character doesn't make him black. Stop hiding behind words to make your point. You know damn well. How many times do I have to explain this to you? How do you not see the inconsistency here? A WHITE actor is portraying a WHITE character. And yet BLACK actors are portraying WHITE character. These two are NOT the same thing.
No, I neither Literally nor figuratively inferred ANYTHING about the Catholic Church's Why or How in creating the images of Angels in book and on stained glass being pictured as anything other than melanin challenged Angels. You were free to infer ANYTHING that you chose to infer. I inferred that the people creating those images weren't aware of people of color's existence, along with Flat-worlders that insist that the Earth is Flat as both being willfully ignorant. You have Free Will and should always exercise that free will judiciously, that is IF you are Catholic and or a Christian.
The European Bible has no mention of this sacred thing called White-People and or Skin-Colored described White People. Your attempt to appear "Insulted' is laughable because it is you who are creating the reason why you THINK you've been insulted. You want it to appear that I have insulted the Catholic Church/Christians/Nords and those Man-Made Religioners and Mad Made religions that you are not even a part of.
Lee+Kirby created a comic book, not a religion, and drew characters based on elements that they wanted to use to create stories. They were neither honoring nor degrading Norse Mythology. They were telling stories for entertainment and profit. You can demonize that fact as you see fit.
And I know that Marvel's Asgard is separate from Norse mythology. We've established that ages ago, we're talking about two different mythologies simultaneously. You're confusing things. I'm not arguing that the characters in Thor need to stay white because they were white in the mythology, I'm saying they need to remain white because they were white in the COMIC. I've already shown you how both Heimdall and Valkyrie were white in the comic books.You've diverted, obfuscated, attempted to misdirect this conversation several times but i will continue to bring you back to the beginning.
This ENTIRE conversation between you and me has been about the hypocrisy of making white characters black in Thor, but not making black characters white in Black Panther, and NOW you're going to pretend that this hasn't been the focal point of our "little conversation"? Re-read the bloody conversation if you must. You are clearly having a hard time keeping up with it. I'm certainly not going to ascertain to this charade. Are you for real? I can't decide of you're being willfully obtuse or desperately trying to argue semantics. I still haven't gotten a half decent answer out of you. You insist on diverting the conversation away from the meat of the topic. Instead preferring to argue around technicalities like "oh but look, this white character that was also white in the book! Checkmate!" No. Answer the question. Why does Marvel have to make white characters black in Thor, but keep black characters black in Black Panther? The question is simple. And don't give me your typical "but they aren't white characters! They're....aliens! Therefore no race is needed". Cowardly copouts like that only serve to waste time and beat around the bush. You're going out of your way to over-complicate it. You've drawn this out long enough. Just answer the bloody question.
shareNo. No. No. Our conversation started by me asking you a question about your topic on this BP Forum, and in your original post there is no mention of Thor, or Heimdall or Valkyrie. Please point that out to me? Please?
You won't. You never have.
And your original post is wrong. BP does not have an All-Black Cast. The BP cast is Diverse in ethnicities, by having a variety of different races and cultures represented in acting roles. The Filmmakers can't be and shouldn't be accused of "Racism", "Reverse Racism", Conscious Exclusion, Racial Goal Setting, Affirmative Action or Reverse Affirmative Action, Racial Pandering, Racial Animus, Racial steering, Racial Bias, Politically Correctness run amok, Politically IN-Correctness in retaliaion, Tokenism (but comically stated, Tolken-ism runs rampant within this film), Racial Superiority, Racial Inferiority, Racial Set-Asides, White Racism, Black Racism or Liberal Guilt. In the Court of Public Opinion you, as the Red Skull eloquently stated, "You are Failing" and flailing. Now answer all of the questions that I originally asked you about your original post as that WAS the conversation. There never originally was a Thor conversation so how could there be a Thor conversation to go BACK to?
NEXT and Continued:
****
This ENTIRE conversation between you and me has been about the hypocrisy of making white characters black in Thor, but not making black characters white in Black Panther, and NOW you're going to pretend that this hasn't been the focal point of our "little conversation"?
****
Here is your problem and spiral. It is you who just stated that there is a "Hypocrisy" because you FEEL there is one based on your own definitions but you refuse to state what the definitions are.
****
Re-read the bloody conversation if you must. You are clearly having a hard time keeping up with it. I'm certainly not going to ascertain to this charade. Are you for real?
****
I am very much for real and have responded to your Mis-directions and changing of topic as well as asked you nicely/politely and with civility to respond to my original question and statements in your Opening and original post, which is still there. Why won't you do that? Nothing prevents you from just answering the very first post that I replied to you. Nothing.
****
I can't decide of you're being willfully obtuse or desperately trying to argue semantics.
****
You don't have to decide about my directness. The thread and chain is quite clear. I've responded to each and every changing of what you are upset about.
***
I still haven't gotten a half decent answer out of you.
***
You mean to say you are unhappy that both my answers and tone are decent. You just don't like that they refute and are different than your agenda and bias. I can't apologize for that.
***
You insist on diverting the conversation away from the meat of the topic.
***
The meat of the topic is your OP and why you won't respond to what you posed, "Why is the BP Cast All-Black?". How is it you see that the BP Cast is all Black?
****
Instead preferring to argue around technicalities like "oh but look, this white character that was also white in the book! Checkmate!"
****
Nope I'm not arguing technicalities. Nor am I cleverly using Semantics.
Klaw is part of the BP cast.
What does Klaw being part of the Black Panther cast have to do with my question?
shareYou are easily confused and or easily distracted and or lack conviction or just can't maintain focus. But I will continue to hold your hand and get you through this.
You haven't had numerous conversations with me explaining the same thing multiple times. So clearly you are confused. Your little verbal temper tantrums are meaningless with the exception of demonstrating you are frustrated because you can't see a way to make consistently coherent arguments out of inconsistent and incoherent positions that you take. I have answered EVERY question that you have asked even though they were off-topic between you and I. To which I'll politely answer and politely respond to the following:
So I ask again, why the lack of diversity? Why is it ok to make Norse gods black when they were white in the comic, but not ok to make Africans white in Black Panther?Your question has nothing to do with Diversity. Please provide a definition of Diversity. Even YOUR definition of Diversity will suffice.
Racial diversity. Meaning more than one skin tone. More than exclusively Caucasoid, negroid, or mongoloid. This is the definition of diversity we are using right now.
Black is meant by skin color. As in the black race. people of African descent. I feel like I'm having to spoon-feed you the bare basics.
Heimdall didn't "act" black, he WAS black. As in contrary to the portrayal of him in Marvel's comic, he was not white. I never inferred that he was acting British either, or that he was acting African, or any number of trivialities you continue to present to me, he was black. A black man portrayed a white character. Why do you continue to insist on focusing on things that have no relevance to the focal point of my question?
For god's sake man. I've asked you the exact same question 20 times now. It's not a matter of "acting" white. It's a matter of BEING white. let me ask you this, are the Japanese unjustified with their outrage over Scarleett Joahannson's portrayal of Motoko in Ghost in the Shell? Would you ask them these same stupid baseless questions that end up leading to nowhere? How long do you insist on playing this charade? When I say that Heimdall is white in the comic, I don't mean he's "acting white" or that he's "behaving white" or that he "identifies as white", He's just WHITE. Jesus!
That's blatantly untrue and dishonest since Europe has been routinely at war with the Muslim Moors for centuries during the Muslim conquests of Southern Europe and Northern Africa. To suggest that the catholic church was just completely oblivious to the existence of people of color is ludicrous. They led crusades down to the middle east for Christ's sake You're saying that during those crusades they never once came into contact with a person of color? Utterly foolish.
shareThat's blatantly untrue and dishonest...........To suggest that the catholic church was just completely oblivious to the existence of people of color is ludicrous. They led crusades down to the middle east for Christ's sake You're saying that during those crusades they never once came into contact with a person of color? Utterly foolish.You're going to be quite chagrined when you go back and DON'T find where I ever intimated, suggested, stated or hinted anything about the Catholic Church's lack of awareness and exposure to other races and or cultures. I questioned those who painted the windows and drew the pictures. Show me where I said the Catholic Church did that? Who is being dishonest and or acting disingenuously here, you or I?
Oh I see, so the catholic church knew about different skin tones, but artists and painters, to which the catholic church had them create their sculptures and stained glass, did not. Because for some benign reason unbeknownst to us, the catholic church didn't think to relay this message to the people they had creating their art?
For crying out loud man, you keep on digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole that makes less and less sense. That's not how society works. There can't be a rift between the church, and the artists and sculptures as if to imply that they were living in different worlds completely separate from one another.
Catholic angels are Caucasian. Demons are beastly and monstrous, they don't have a race.
Catholic angels are male
Heimdall is Caucasian
Second question: Since "white" is not a race:
According to your logic, the Asgardians should be 100% Norse, meaning they should only be represented by actors from the Netherlands: Scandinavian, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish.
This is not the case, however. Why are you only focusing on the one black actor, instead of complaining about EVERY actor that fails to match Norse ancestry?
Please explain why you are not following your own logic.
Please explain why the single black actor upsets you more than other actors who also don't fit the ethnic needs that you are declaring.
Since when was "white" established as "not a race"?
Also, it's not just the single black actor, it's the actress who portrays Valkyrie as well. Valkyrie wasn't black in the comic.
Since when was "white" established as "not a race"?Since when does one answer a question with another question in a simple conversation? I answered your questions now be kind and answer mine, please.
Also, it's not just the single black actor, it's the actress who portrays Valkyrie as well. Valkyrie wasn't black in the comic.
I did. This questioned wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to Frogarama. Please keep our conversations separate please and mind your own business in replies that were not meant for you.
shareI did. This question wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to Frogarama. Please keep our conversations separate please and mind your own business in replies that were not meant for you.1st. No you didn't answer my question(s) to you. 2nd. I was nice and polite to you regardless if you feel I butted into a conversation on and of the same topic which was EXACTLY the business that I was minding.
I'm trying to keep up, but that doesn't give you an excuse to make several different replies to 20 different people. Keep my conversations with you exclusive. That way I can do the same for everyone else. You're not making it easy for me to keep up with you when you spend all your time replying to every one of my posts. Most certainly not the "polite" thing to do.
sharePardon the rudeness of the well-known troll.
You should read the rest of his responses here, it's getting pretty hilarious. He's backed himself into a corner and now I'm able to use his own words against him to prove his hipocrisy.
Also, he is continually refusing to address why he only focuses on black actors and not the non-Scandinavian white actors.
Gotta love it =)
I have read most of the responses and not_a_virus.exe exhibits a tendency to only hear his or her self. He or she has an agenda and a bias that they are unwilling to accept and or believe that is negative and just wrong. His or her arguments are based on a fallacy and a false premise based on what he or she FEELS instead of objectively what is true.
My mistake, I used "race" instead of "ethnicity."
Okay so, why are you picking on the TWO black actors instead of ALL the Asgardian actors who fail to meet the ethnic requirements I mentioned?
Notice that you've actually made your case even worse.
Explain. I'm dying to hear this.
shareExplain what? Should I explain what I've already explained?
Can I assume that you are stalling and refusing to address the actual question?
You can assume whatever you like, I just want to know how on earth you came to the conclusion you did. The mental gymnastics you went through to arrive here are unfathomable.
shareAnd which conclusion is that? You are still being vague.
Note that you also did not specify what you wished me to explain, and note that you are continuing to DODGE the original question while expecting me to answer further questions of yours.
Do you have any response to the question, or will there simply be more stalling and dodging and answering questions with questions?
When I asked you to explain how you arrived to the point you did, it was right after you made the point. I shouldn't have had to explain it, because it was naturally assumed that by keeping up with the conversation, you knew where on the page we were.
But since you're clearly a little slow today, I want you to explain how on earth I "dug myself into a deeper hole" by making the argument I did.
I want you to explain how on earth I "dug myself into a deeper hole" by making the argument I did
[deleted]
By refusing to address the non-Norse ancestry of other actors that play Asgardians, you are declaring your hipocrisy.
This is your own sentence:
Scandinavians have worshipped these gods for thousands of years. That's THEIR heritage. Why do you seemingly have no problem throwing their heritage and religion under the bus when it accommodates you but will bend over backwards defending a fictional world that didn't exist prior to 1966?
How is it hypocritical? I really don't understand how you're so confused. The non-nordic white actors that portray Norse gods are white. The non-nordic black actors that portray norse gods are not. What's so hard to understand? The actors that are white, reflect Norse mythology, where as the black actors do not. This is so basic in deductive reasoning I can't imagine why it needs to be explained.
share"The actors that are white, reflect Norse mythology, where as the black actors do not."
Your own words: "Scandinavians have worshipped these gods for thousands of years. That's THEIR heritage."
Fact: Not all white people are Scandinavian.
Fact: Anthony Hopkins is playing Odin and he's not even blonde, so he does not "reflect" a group of blonde white gods.
Coffin, meet nail.
Oh ok, then by that logic then Japanese people shouldn't be portraying Chinese people? INFACT if you REALLY wanted to go to that length to make your point, then none of the black actors in Black Panther should be portraying Wakandans either, because they're all either American or British, right? Is there even a SINGLE black actor in Black Panther than is actually from Africa?
Nail, meet pry bar,
Oh ok, then by that logic then Japanese people shouldn't be portraying Chinese people? INFACT if you REALLY wanted to go to that length to make your point
No actually it isn't. You've been using the ethnicity argument this whole time as a desperate attempt to disqualify my point. Turns out you really shot yourself in the foot. Again.
shareYes, the ethnicity argument is your logic, which I am using to demonstrate your inconsistency.
All you've done is proven that inconsistency while getting triggered.
Again, no it isn't. It;s yours. We can keep going around in circles about this if you wish, but you spent the better part of the last hour begging me to demonstrate why it should be ok for an Aussie to play a nord. Then I told you. And now you're backpedaling. Because you know you're wrong.
shareSecond post:
"because they're all either American or British, right?"
You're referring to citizenship here, not ethnic background.
Your entire argument boils down to this: All white people can pass for Scandinavian, even if they don't have blonde hair and even if they don't look or sound Scandinavian.
British and American are ethnic backgrounds. You're telling me that an American black and a British black are no different than an African black? We're talking about three completely different cultures and traditions here. How on EARTH can you make such an absurd statement? Is that all you think America and Britain is? Just a passport? No culture? no heritage? No history or tradition? Are you out of your bloody mind?
share"British and American are ethnic backgrounds."
LOL, NO... What a lie.
You're clearly referring to their citizenships. Otherwise you'd be saying that Idris Elba is ethnically British.
Instead, you're complaining that Idris is black, speaking about his lineage from Africa.
Obvious trolling is far too obvious. It's been fun, but I have to go shopping now.
He IS ethnically British! In what world are you living in that he isn't? Are you saying it's impossible for a black person to be ethnically British? if so then what about white people? What about white people that were born and raised in Britain that descended directly from the ancient Britons back in the Roman era? And if white Brits aren't "ethnically british", then what does "ethnically British" even mean? And if there's no such thing as British ethnicity, then is there also no such thing as any other ethnicity? What is ethnicity in the first place?
shareNot interested in the race bait trolling anymore, your blatant repeated dishonesty is obvious enough.
shareWhat's obvious is your failed argument that fell flat on its face once you opened the floodgates of suggesting that there's no such thing as British or American ethnicity. So if you take an American, and a Brit, and put them in the same room, you wouldn't be able to spot the difference? BS! One of the dumbest things I've read on this board since it opened earlier this year.
shareOh give it up, loser.
Even your trolling logic has defeated itself twice. You're not even brave enough to respond to the second time you contradicted yourself.
You're not very creative.
Another accusation that I haven't responded to something? It never ends with you does it? You corner yourself into one argument and then accuse me of skipping over another one in desperate attempt of getting out of it. You aren't even organized enough to keep your own arguments in line.
shareSo you're dumb and aggressive like a mongoloid, is that it?
LOL, here little boy, let me show you what you avoided. I posted this 15 hours ago:
Hey wait:
Explain why it makes sense to you that a fictional tribe of humans from a fictional country in Africa, is somehow on a different playing field than a fictional tribe of gods from a fictional world.
"So you're dumb and aggressive like a mongoloid, is that it?"
Are you insane? Are you so hurting to not look like an idiot that you instead race to look like a racist instead? Why would you think saying something like that is ok? You've just outed yourself as a racist fool. Had I known that before hand I probably would have not wasted my time.
"So by your logic, a fictional black Asgardian is no different from a fictional white Asgardian."
I still don't see how you carved that out of what I said. I asked you to show me why a fictional black country needs to remain true to the pages, but a fictional world does not. You're really reaching here.
"I asked you to show me why a fictional black country needs to remain true to the pages, but a fictional world does not."
Nope, you're a liar in addition to being a stupid mongoloid.
You clearly said, multiple times, that there is no difference between fictional humans and fictional gods, as well as no difference between a fictional country on Earth and a fictional nether realm elsewhere.
You clearly said that and confirmed it.
You're a lying piece of crap troll, that's all you are. As an actual person, you're obviously too dumb to make real conversation, so you troll to compensate for your stupidity.
What's funny is that you think people laugh at your persona, but they laugh at the kind of person who would reduce himself to trolling a message board. You're pathetic.
Good trolling requires consistency, not your half-assed, weak, LAZY race-baiting nonsense that you can't even keep straight.
I've just returned to this thread after a nice peaceful Christmas. Nice to see you two have called a truce ! Even though it you gave me a few laughs:-)
share[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
Why do the majority of movies have a mostly white cast?
shareI'll make sure to bump this when Black Panther comes out so others can see your trolling and you'll get swamped with replies.
share