MovieChat Forums > Harvey Weinstein Discussion > As big of a pig as this guy is, every vi...

As big of a pig as this guy is, every victim of his assaults that accepted money to remain quiet, are just as bad


Disgusting that every time a scandal like this breaks out, all of the women come out of the woodwork like cockroaches to get a slice of the limelight. Not before the story breaks though. They seem very hush hush about it until then. Obviously suffering sexual assault and/or rape isn't damaging enough to their mental health as to not accept a nice big juicy paycheck to keep them quiet. Sorry but if you were sexually assaulted a decade ago, and accepted money to keep quiet, you have ABSOLUTELY no place complaining about it now. When you sell your soul to the devil, you don't get to bitch about it when it becomes trendy. I absolutely hate how they all lie in wait for the perfect opportunity to pounce on him when it serves their goals. Absolute vipers. No better than he is. How on earth is sexual assault supposed to be rectified if every time it occurs, the victims just take their money like a bunch of prostitutes and keep quiet? Reprehensible.

reply

You make a lot of bad assumptions.

1. "Not before the story breaks though. They seem very hush hush about it until then." Several accusers did report his actions, and the media did nothing, and the police did nothing. They sued to get any justice they could, and it wasn't much. Their choice was accept a settlement, or get no justice at all.

2. "Obviously suffering sexual assault and/or rape isn't damaging enough to their mental health as to not accept a nice big juicy paycheck to keep them quiet" Get the facts. Even a fairly big named actress like Rose McGowan received only a six-figure check.

3. "they all lie in wait for the perfect opportunity to pounce on him when it serves their goals" Getting justice is serving their goals? Most of them are coming forward now, long after the statutes of limitations have passed, with no expectation of any recovery. Many are coming out now because they feel they could not have safely done so before.

4. "No better than he is" The victims, who are in fear of the consequences of coming forward, are no better than the perpetrator, who abuses women without fear of substantial consequences? Stop trolling.

5. "How on earth is sexual assault supposed to be rectified if every time it occurs, the victims just take their money like a bunch of prostitutes and keep quiet" The best way would be if people stopped blaming the victims and started imposing severe consequences on the perpetrators.


reply

Consequences can’t be imposed on the perps if the victims are willing to be paid off. I can see some obscure, new to Hollywood actress deciding that nothing good can come of reporting the assault, but when you’re a relatively big name and the abuse is an ‘open secret’, there’s just no excuse. People talk about how ‘powerful’ this guy was. A big part of the reason a pig like him can be so powerful is because the people surrounding him are willing to be dollar-worshiping doormats and enablers. Sadists and sociopaths will always exist no matter how they are raised and no matter how healthy society’s attitudes are. It’s the responsibility of ‘normal’ people to not be ruled by apathy and greed and to actually care about others and to NOT enable these bastards. Just think how different things would be if it was normal for anyone who knew about this ‘open secret’ to openly deride this creep BY NAME to the public and refuse to work with him.

reply

I have to say that if I were ever in the right but making my point would involve a fight I couldn't possibly win, I would seriously consider accepting a settlement... if it were VERY large. The less money in the hands of people like HW the better!

And yeah, an actor couldn't fight HW and still have a career left, bringing him down it took someone who had nothing to lose.

reply

It took a recording for his victims to come forward. They only did it once it was "safe". Any one of his victims could have been the one to do it even at the cost of losing everything they had, but the fact that they weren't willing to risk it, and prioritized their careers and their wealth over getting the man behind bars, means they have no place to call him out for the scumbag he is. They're just as guilty.

reply

Wrong. If someone commits a crime, and then commits obstruction of justice by intimidating or bribing witnesses, the witnesses are not as guilty as the criminal. No, it's the criminal who'd doubly and triply guilty, culpable, and immoral.

You do seem determined to deflect as much responsibility from Harvey himself as possible, you fanboy you. Or are you his mother? I'm pretty sure you're not the wife...

reply

Ah, of course. Anyone who criticizes the victims must be defending the perpetrator. How liberal of you.

reply

Yeah because you would give up on being rich and famous just to put a creep in jail knowing that just in Hollywood he is not only one. Maybe you would, I don't know... But you see you would also think about it twice probably.

reply

Sure, but I wouldn't go prancing around about women's rights and female empowerment and calling to end sexual assault and rape to the general masses, KNOWING that there was a predator in my ranks either. Remember how hard they beat Donald Trump down for his locker room banter? Remember how they used that as hard as they could to get Hillary elected? They did that, knowing FULL WELL about Harvey Weinstein. How someone can be so deceitful and two-faced, as to call out Trump, just over his REMARKS, but then PROTECT Harvey Weinstein's BEHAVIOR, is just beyond fathom. It's incredible. That's the part the infuriates me the most. Is that they preach one thing, and practice another.

reply

"They did that, knowing FULL WELL about Harvey Weinstein. How someone can be so deceitful and two-faced, as to call out Trump, just over his REMARKS, but then PROTECT Harvey Weinstein's BEHAVIOR, is just beyond fathom."

Well on this I can't contradict you. This is a total hypocrisy.

As I said numerous times I agree with your point. I just have a problem with the radical approach you have about it. It's like saying that these actresses are "evil" and not "victims" which I don't agree with.

And well... As hypocritical as it might be, I can't say that they are wrong to speak out loud neither. They don't all complain, they just talk about the fact. What did you want them to do? To just keep it deep inside of them and never express it?

If they don't play the "victim card" (or at least not too much), I don't think that it is a bad thing that they give their experience on the subject.

But of course... If one of them starts to act like she is a total victim of him but let him pay for her silence... Then, yes. Totally, I'm with you.

And just think about it you most definitely had at least 2 jobs in your life. You don't talk shit or at least you stay careful when talking about YOUR boss (at least at work); you most certainly feel more comfortable talking about your ex boss.

Look at it with this perspective a little.

Bottom line: If a molester abuses me, and then offers me money to buy my silence and I take the money and shut my mouth, I won't pretend to be a victim if by not saying a word about it I let this person to do this to others. Because anyway how retarded would I look: Oh yeah I knew this guy was dangerous because I've been molested by him but he offered me a good amount of money so I just closed my eyes on it. Yeah... At this point I think I would be considered guilty as well....

reply

Female actresses have no power and influence in the industry, I think they were scared.

reply

Of course they were scared, but you don't need power and influence to knock down the king. Consider how easy it was for his victims to come out once one decided to come clean. Like a domino effect, they are now all coming out to speak out against his crimes. All it could have taken is that same effect to happen earlier for him to stop reigning terror against these women, but due to their cowardice, and their focus on their money and wealth and rich bitch lifestyle, they swept it under the rug and pretended it wasn't there. They enabled him to cast his sexual assaults against women for two decades. All because they were "scared". Cowardice shouldn't be defended. These women could have done something and chose not to. They are undeserving of sympathy or respect.

reply

I appreciate your observation but please stop calling people like him "pigs." It's an insult to pigs who are decent, caring, lovely animals that no human being is worthy of being compared to. Thanx.

reply

Nobody has any business in getting to decide how a victim must respond to being victimized. Ever.

Being victimized is something they have to deal with, and they get to choose how they deal with it. They do not need anyone's approval to deal with their victimization or how they choose to deal with it, because it is theirs alone to deal with. All anyone else is allowed to do is be there for them, support them and help them. But they don't get the right to judge or second guess.

Some speak out immediately, some fight back, some hide it, some go into denial, some mitigate it to a level they can live with, some self destruct, some accept it and move on, some live with it until it eats holes in their soul, and some wait until they know they will not be alone. Everybody is different, and so every response to being victimized will be as well.

Who the fuck are you to judge how victims of sexual assault must deal with their assaults? Particularly when if they don't deal with their assault the way YOU think they should, that they must be condemned as prostitutes and cockroaches?

And then you judge them them for how they deal with being assaulted and pretend to wonder why so many victims of this shit choose silence? You're a douche.

reply


<< Nobody has any business in getting to decide how a victim must respond to being victimized. Ever. >>

Your post is very insightful.

The thing I hate about people decreeing what hoops a victim "should" jump through afterwards is, It drags the person into what can be years of investigation and litigation and scrutiny that they never signed on for. Someone attacked them, which is hard enough to deal with...and now they're expected to just automatically drop everything without question and go through all the cr@p that can come with seeking revenge? Of course it would be ideal for society if everyone were capable of doing that, but there are also people out there who might have their hands full just dealing with holding it together after incidents like that.

It's the same mentality that expects a woman to have to carry a child to term that's the result of a rape. She didn't sign on for that, and shouldn't be burdened with it if she's not interested. Those people can go have a rapist's baby if they think it sounds so great.

Not to mention that re: Weinstein, some of these women did tell others at Miramax, or costars, about what was done to them...and were discouraged from taking it further. So now, those women were supposed to take on all those people, too? Without support? They're just actresses in their teens and twenties, for god's sake, not Joan of Arc.
.

reply

No. It's not just theirs alone to deal with. When we live in a society that preaches and indoctrinates our boys that they're supposed to leave girls alone and not harass them and not rape them, but then will aid and abed those very same predators as long as they hold power, then NOTHING will ever be accomplished. You're fighting a lost cause. This isn't just a battle that victims have to fight, it's a battle SOCIETY has to fight. And there's no possible way that society can do that by preaching to the choir while sweeping REAL GENUINE RAPE AND ABUSE under the rug because the predator has sway over your career. What you're really saying then, is that for all the virtue signalling in Hollywood, you want the men of greater society to behave one way, but as long as those same men have enough power and influence, you're willing to ignore your own values. And that's the worst message of all. Because then it teaches boys that rape is bad, unless you can buy off your victims. Sexual assault is bad, unless you can guarantee them a rich and lavish lifestyle. That's the worst kind of hypocrisy imaginable. That, more than anything else, is what contributes to the rape culture that these false moralists profess. And that's why it should NEVER EVER be tolerated no matter who it is. Nothing will ever change so long as the victim never comes forward. And you know what? That's fine, but at least have the decency to stop bitching about rape culture when your silence perpetuates it. This is a two way street. Society as a whole is either in this together, or not at all.

reply

And that's the worst message of all. Because then it teaches boys that rape is bad, unless you can buy off your victims.

That is a cop out. Society didn't rape anybody. The rapist did. Blaming society is the rapist's way to deflect from his own personal responsibility for his behavior.

A rapist hiding behind the flaws inherent in any society does not alleviate him from his responsibility for his actions, anymore than a back alley rapist hiding behind a dumpster makes the dumpster responsible.

Everybody knows it is wrong. Some people choose to do wrong, knowing it is wrong. And people like you that let them blame the fact that they find mechanisms in the world that they can hide behind to make them appear less wrong is a bigger part of the problem than the mechanisms they hide behind.

reply

"That is a cop out. Society didn't rape anybody. The rapist did. Blaming society is the rapist's way to deflect from his own personal responsibility for his behavior. "

No. It isn't. If society as a whole, does not own up to the core values that it professes, then the values don't exist. Once you start giving preferential treatment to some but not all, there's no order. That's the whole point to having a justice system. You can't tell the mass majority of men that rape and sexual assault are serious crimes that need to be eradicated, while simultaneously protecting the apex predators within your very own industry. By protecting them from the law, you are aiding their abuse.

"A rapist hiding behind the flaws inherent in any society does not alleviate him from his responsibility for his actions, anymore than a back alley rapist hiding behind a dumpster makes the dumpster responsible. "

Yes it does, because a dumpster is an inanimate object with no sentience. Let's not reduce the discussion to this level of stupidity please. A dumpster isn't protecting a rapist when he chooses to hide behind it, the rapist just chose to hide behind it. But when a rapist assaults 30 women and they say nothing, they do so in order to protect him.

"Everybody knows it is wrong. Some people choose to do wrong, knowing it is wrong. And people like you that let them blame the fact that they find mechanisms in the world that they can hide behind to make them appear less wrong is a bigger part of the problem than the mechanisms they hide behind."

Again, no. Because without those mechanisms, they wouldn't be able to hide behind them. The fact that the entire industry said nothing for 30 years and allowed it to happen, means that it was allowed to happen because of them. Their silence guaranteed the predator's continued reign of terror. Would the mafia be as powerful as it was if they didn't pay off the police and judges?

reply


<< That's the whole point to having a justice system. You can't tell the mass majority of men that rape and sexual assault are serious crimes that need to be eradicated, while simultaneously protecting the apex predators....By protecting them from the law, you are aiding their abuse. >>

The legal system itself ORDERS parties to attempt to reach agreeable compromises (ie, settlements, plea bargains) prior to going to trial. There are MANDATED mediation sessions in which parties are encouraged to resolve their issues. 90% of criminal cases end in plea bargains (reduced sentences) and most civil cases are settled by mutual agreement. It is what our legal system prefers.

If you have an issue with that, go to the Supreme Court. After you wing off to Hollywood to solve all it's problems.
.

reply

Why? This problem could have been solved in-house a long time ago. But because it was more economical to not do anything about it, nothing was done.

reply


Dodging....
.

reply

No. You are. I've brought this point up several times and you've ignored it.

reply

It has all been answered for you in this thread. Re-read it.

reply

No. It hasn't. You saying it has isn't going to change anything.

reply

Shhhhhhh....grownups are talking.

reply

This is my thread.

reply


Hush little baby, don't say a word
Mama's gonna buy you a mockingbird...
.

reply

This is my thread.

reply

It has been taken away from you, because you can't care for nice things (like people)

reply

Then why am I still replying to it?

reply

Because without those mechanisms, they wouldn't be able to hide behind them.

Those mechanisms are inherent in society. If wrong doers need one and it doesn't exist, they will make one. The mechanisms are not going away.

That said, people who do wrong do so knowing it is wrong and will continue to do wrong, continue to hide behind the flaws inherent in any society and create mechanisms by which they can avoid taking responsibility for their actions. That is an immutable indisputable truth.

Look at this way..., have you ever heard of a uniformed police officer ever getting mugged, or an attractive female uniformed cop getting groped on a street corner by a random predator? Probably not, because the immediacy of the consequences of that act would be quite apparent. No way to dodge responsibility.

The fact that wrong doers manage to find ways to dodge personal responsibility for their actions does not in any way diminish their responsibility, nor shift any portion of that responsibility to anyone else. This is particularly true in sexual assaults where victims are often as likely to blame themselves. You think sexual predators aren't aware of this fundamental human response and willing to take advantage of it, hell, even are counting on it?

Your position allows wrong doers to minimize their responsibility for their acts by blaming the victim and the society we all live in because they take advantage of the flaws that are inherent in any social construct to do wrong. All the while, there are plenty of us that do not abuse society's flaws to help us do wrong to others in society, that don't do wrong things because they are wrong.

Your position contributes more to the problem by abetting perps need to minimize their personal responsibility.

reply

No. My position is not to minimize responsibility of the perps, it's to maximize responsibility of the accessory. Because that's exactly what they are.
Again, I don't know how many more times I have to spell this out for you, but when people don't hold a predator that keeps them in business, to the same standard that they would a predator that doesn't, then their silence allows for that predatory behavior to foster.

For every actress in Hollywood that goes on and on about women's rights and rape culture and sexual harassment and female empowerment, when they ignore ALL of that, because a rapist keeps them in business, then they are reducing rape, and sexual harassment, and everything they champion for, to nothing more than the right price.

Remember that old Edmund Burke quote? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". That's EXACTLY what this is. It could have taken a handful of women to bring this man down, but they didn't. And therefore it doesn't matter if they were victims, they are just as complicit in his crimes as he was. To them, their riches and wealth and fame and status were not worth risking to put this man behind bars where he belongs.

If everyone in Hollywood was on the same page about this culture festering in their industry, it wouldn't exist. But they give the rape culture power because their fear of losing their riches was more important. Their silence gives these apex predators at the top every reason to exploit them. And instead of targeting those predators who hold dominion over them, they instead preach to men at the bottom who aren't even in the industry. Talk about spineless.

reply

"Again, I don't know how many more times I have to spell this out for you,"

Maybe if you were more condescending, maybe ramp that up until it is equal to how judgmental you are when dealing with how you think people should react to being sexually assaulted.

"Remember that old Edmund Burke quote? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". That's EXACTLY what this is."

Except it isn't. It's a nice quote, but you are using it like evil will just go away if everybody affected do what you perceive as the right thing. It won't. In this case, one predator who is finally going down after years and years of some people trying to do the "right thing" and getting punished for it doesn't mean that sexual predators are going to die off. This sort of behavior from weak ego driven assholes has been going on since forever, and will continue.

And it is not just in Hollywood, or in every other workplace where people are inevitably in control of some relevant aspect of someone else's life. It is everywhere.

Tolerating sexual harassment is not the price of being a star. It is quite apparently simply the price of being a female. And if a female has had to deal with it since bumps started showing under her sweater, she may develop a sense of "Oh, for the love of God, that is twice this month, WTF is wrong with these assholes," and just consider it another annoyance like co-workers heating up Indian take-out leftovers in the break room microwave oven.

I don't know how many times I have to spell it out for you. Neither you or anyone else gets to judge the victim of a sexual assault for how they choose to deal with this brutally invasive assault on the central core of their identity, the one thing in the universe they do have control over, after it was taken from them..., their body. They do not answer to you or anyone else. They take control back however they can. Everything else is secondary.

reply

Damn, this is a good response !

reply


<< Damn, this is a good response ! >>

We have some good posters here!

: )

imdb can SUCK IT! (or is that harrasment?)
.

reply

The very same excuses you're making for these people are the ones they use to do nothing. "well this won't change anything in the long run so no reason to try and change it now". When everyone thinks like that, of course nothing gets done. When you're lazy and self-centered, of course nothing gets done.

The people in Hollywood have power, money, influence, status. They had every opportunity to bring this man down earlier and didn't.

"Tolerating sexual harassment is not the price of being a star. It is quite apparently simply the price of being a female. And if a female has had to deal with it since bumps started showing under her sweater, she may develop a sense of "Oh, for the love of God, that is twice this month, WTF is wrong with these assholes," and just consider it another annoyance like co-workers heating up Indian take-out leftovers in the break room microwave oven. "

BULLSHIT! How thoughtless of a human being could you be to say something as cruel and heartless as that? You think women are the only ones getting abused in Hollywood?! What about Corey Feldman? What about Corey Haim? Brad Renfro? Terry Crews? James Van Der Beek? Nathan Forrest Winters? Do these men not count in your warped world view of what constitutes a victim? It's this kind of nonsense I'm talking about, "women = victim, men = predator" that will ensure boys never get their justice.

reply

BULLSHIT! How thoughtless of a human being could you be to say something as cruel and heartless as that? . . . , Do these men not count in your warped world view of what constitutes a victim?

Curb your manufactured outrage. I was simply staying on your topic, which is men in power abusing their position to sexually assault women and your perception of the victims' complicity in it. I also did not address domestic abuse, churches protecting predatory priests, high school bullies, or any other of the myriad evils humans perpetrate on other humans. That does not mean I am not aware of them, just that I was staying on topic to your thread, rather than trying to misdirect the conversation off your topic.

But since you brought it up, where have all these sexually assaulted men been? Where are they now? I don't see many of them coming forward when now is really a good time to be heard.

Are they as guilty as their abusers for their abuse as well? Are they just as complicit in their predators' crimes as their abusers are?

reply

"Curb your manufactured outrage. I was simply staying on your topic, which is men in power abusing their position to sexually assault women and your perception of the victims' complicity in it. I also did not address domestic abuse, churches protecting predatory priests, high school bullies, or any other of the myriad evils humans perpetrate on other humans. That does not mean I am not aware of them, just that I was staying on topic to your thread, rather than trying to misdirect the conversation off your topic. "

You: Tolerating sexual harassment is not the price of being a star. It is quite apparently simply the price of being a female.

How in any way shape or form is that even remotely staying on topic? That's a blanket statement of sheer ignorance. The topic was how women staying silent are complicit in perpetuating the rape culture that they shun to everyone else. You've reduced it to typical "woe is me I'm a woman and the world is against me" rhetoric that everyone is sick to death of. Stop backpedaling.

"But since you brought it up, where have all these sexually assaulted men been? Where are they now? I don't see many of them coming forward when now is really a good time to be heard.

Are they as guilty as their abusers for their abuse as well? Are they just as complicit in their predators' crimes as their abusers are? "

They have come forward. Elijah Wood and Corey Feldman have been outspoken on the abuse of Hollywood elites for YEARS! Feldman was the victim of rampant abuse when he was a child star. Corey Haim? Nathan Forrest Winters? When Feldman tried warning the public about it on the View, Barbara Walters dismissed him as damaging an entire industry. How many women are now coming out and getting credited for being heroes because of it? Why wasn't he credited? There's numerous examples of boys being abused in Hollywood, you're just not listening. Because according to your crackpot world view, sexual abuse is exclusively a woman problem.

reply

Where are they now? Why aren't they speaking out now? I never said there was exclusively male on female violence. Your thread was about it, and I stayed on YOUR topic. YOU are changing the subject. Start a new thread if you want, but try to stay on topic in your own thread.

They have come forward. As have many women before them for YEARS. Only to be ignored, dismissed, and discredited, like the male victims you are championing.

Answer my question. Are they as guilty as their abusers for their abuse as well? Are they just as complicit in their predators' crimes as their abusers are?

reply

No. They aren't, but neither are the women that came forward about their abusers sacrificing their careers. The SUBJECT of this thread is the women that were victims of Harvey's, knew about what he was doing, and remained quiet about it for their own personal gain. That's LITERALLY what this entire thread is about. How about you re-read my posts before you start telling me that I'm changing the subject. Even Courtney Love of all people has more spine than Streep and Judd.

reply

The SUBJECT of this thread is the women that were victims of Harvey's, knew about what he was doing, and remained quiet about it for their own personal . . . ,

Exactly. Your words. The women abused by Weinstein. No mention of anybody else's abuse at the hands of other abusers.

Also, I think "reasons" is a better word than "gain" at the end of your sentence. It is presumptuous of you to decide for them the reasons for their silence. You don't know their reasons.

Since you introduced the new subject into your thread, consider that you mention 5-6 males who have come forward in the last 20 years or so, while 30+ women came forward in the last two weeks about a single abuser.

Think about why that might be, and consider the possibility that people are complex, and that there might not be a one size fits all solution for victims of sexual assault. That trying to dictate a solution for victims might actually be yet another assault, and that judging victims for how they respond is yet another assault.

That whole being judged for how they respond to an extremely personal assault might actually contribute to their deciding remain silent.

edit: grammar, added last sentence.

reply

Let's please not stoop to the level of grammar police to continue this discussion. Nothing screams loss like reducing this to an argument of semantics.

"Since you introduced the new subject into your thread, consider that you mention 5-6 males who have come forward in the last 20 years or so, while 30+ women came forward in the last two weeks about a single abuser.

Think about why that might be"

I did. I outlined it in the opening post. They saw a golden opportunity to pounce on this man without fearing for their career because overnight, it became trendy to punish him for what he did. It wasn't trendy 30 years ago, it's just trendy now. When Feldman and Wood came forward about it, it wasn't trendy, as is displayed by Barbara Walters' dismissal of his assertions. No one believed these men when they tried telling us.

"and consider the possibility that people are complex, and that there might not be a one size fits all solution for victims of sexual assault. That trying to dictate a solution for victims might actually be yet another assault, and that judging victims for how they respond is yet another assault. "

You don't call these 30 women now coming out about him and what he did for the last 30 years a one size fits all solution? Seems pretty effective to me. This could have been the same solution decades ago, but why ruin a good thing? Harboring a rapist and contradicting your moral compass seems like a small price to pay for a lavish life of riches and wealth.

"That whole being judged for how they respond to an extremely personal assault might actually contribute to their deciding remain silent. "

But they ended up coming forward in the end didn't they? And now here we all are judging their response. So what changed from then to now? Nothing. Because that's not the reason they remained silent. It was money.

reply

You don't call these 30 women now coming out about him and what he did for the last 30 years a one size fits all solution? Seems pretty effective to me.

So, you agree that staying silent for years and years is okay for some victims? Because that is quite apparently what many of these women did.

Not that I am judging them for their years of silence before speaking out..., that is what you are doing..., except for now when it is apparently okay because it suits you in this instance. But not for long.

" it became trendy to punish him for what he did. It wasn't trendy 30 years ago, it's just trendy now."

"Because that's not the reason they remained silent. It was money."

"And now here we all are judging their response."

You are judging their response.

I'm not. It is not for me to judge how someone responds to a personal assault, because it is, well, personal. They get to deal with it as they see fit because it is personal. That has been my stance from the beginning.

Oh, by the way, "Let's please not stoop to the level of grammar police to continue this discussion." I edited MY grammar. I got a possessive pronoun wrong in MY comment, corrected it, and annotated my comment to reflect the edit in my comment. Stop being so sensitive, not everything is about you.



reply

"So, you agree that staying silent for years and years is okay for some victims? Because that is quite apparently what many of these women did.
Not that I am judging them for their years of silence before speaking out..., that is what you are doing..., except for now when it is apparently okay because it suits you in this instance. But not for long."

No. I don't even know how you managed to carve that point out of what I said. If every victim of his coming together to throw this man under the bus is effective now, it could have been just as effective 30 years ago. That's the point. Something could have been done, and it wasn't.

"You are judging their response.

I'm not. It is not for me to judge how someone responds to a personal assault, because it is, well, personal. They get to deal with it as they see fit because it is personal. That has been my stance from the beginning. "

No, EVERYONE is judging their response. EVERYONE sees the hypocrisy in their response. Even people on this very message board. It's just you who isn't. And when you spend your careers virtue signaling to the general public about womens rights and feminism and female empowerment, You MAKE it personal. It shouldn't be a shock then that once news breaks that you've been harboring a predator for 30 years that people aren't going to use it to point out the hypocrisy.

reply

And therefore it doesn't matter if they were victims, they are just as complicit in his crimes as he was. .

Holy effing crap, you just said that that the girls HW raped are as guilty as he is for raping them.

You are fucked up.

reply

Yeah. I did. I said that several times throughout this thread. It's literally the title of the thread.

reply

Yeah, you did. You are so fucked up.

Your point?

reply

What was yours? You went into this thread reading the title. Why are you acting so surprised about it now?

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

"Once you start giving preferential treatment to some but not all, there's no order."

This... I agree. Even though I think that you are exaggerating, this is accurate.

reply

I have one little problem with you statement:

"Nobody has any business in getting to decide how a victim must respond to being victimized. "

I don't know man. On the big picture, I agree with you. But... Sorry if a person had some domestic abuse and in the end the person who was abusing becomes a threat to let's say your children. Sorry I would have a hard time to accept the fact that as a victim you decided to not do anything about it.

What I agreecwith you though is that in this situation, your reasoning is legit... Partially. In a way, they were the "only" people affected by his abuses. On the other hand, them staying silence gave him the opportunity to do the same to other women.

So yeah... I kinda have a problem with your statement, even though it is actually true in most cases.

reply

But... Sorry if a person had some domestic abuse and in the end the person who was abusing becomes a threat to let's say your children Or any children.

First, let me re-iterate that this thread is about what the OP posted about, and not about other abusive scenarios. Those are subjects for other threads.

That said, an adult in an abusive household abandoning children to their abuser is not the same thing as an adult tolerating sexual abuse in the workplace.

Adults are supposed to protect children. Even children not theirs. I cannot imagine a scenario where I could possibly excuse an adult for allowing a child to be abused when the adult could have done anything at all to prevent it.

But that is not what this thread is about.

reply

"Adults are supposed to protect children. "

Aren't adults supposed to protect other adults as well? Like in... Protecting other women from getting the same abuse?

This is what bugs me with your post, you seem to think that the women keeping their silence in this scenario were THE only victims of his assaults. In reality: the fact that they stayed silence gave him the opportunity to do the same things to many other women. So no on this I disagree... It wasn't just "personal". It would be if they were the only one affected which isn't the case.

But as I said: I mostly agree with you. I just think that there is a little nuance to make.

reply

And I agree with you, mostly. The distinction is that children need to be protected. Adults, for the most part, are expected to protect themselves.

Not everybody is, can be, or should be expected to be heroic, self sacrificial, or devoted to the protection of others who should be capable of protecting themselves. Sometimes it is all they can do to protect themselves. I think it is wrong to condemn them for that.

Then there are the heroes. They stand out because they put others before themselves, and make a stand regardless of the cost to themselves.

I just think there is a wider spectrum between "heroes" and "just as guilty as the predator who assaulted them" than the OP.

reply

"I just think there is a wider spectrum between "heroes" and "just as guilty as the predator who assaulted them" than the OP."

Yes, this totally. OP's position is too radical. There is a big room to temper this view.

For me it is just that this is exactly the kind of case where nothing is really black or white.

reply

I think never in my bave I had so many mixed feelings about a post.

On one side, I get OP's point and only have a problem with the fact that he is so harshly blaming the victims and saying that they are as bad as him.

On the other hand, I get the point of people who are opposing to OP. The only real problem I have with most of them, is that they seems to say that the victims here are totally not to blame.

My position: they do have their share of responsibilities because their silence allowed this fat fuck to sexually assault many women after them. But on another side, it is true that every people react differently to abuses and some simply think that it is shameful to come out clear about it. And no, in no way are they on the same level as him. They're not guilty, but not innocent neither.

So... I agree with op AND the opposition.

reply

The OP does make a valid point regarding the paid off "victims" who chose silence in exchange for wealth and fame. Hollywood is so seedy and corrupt that it's obvious that this has always been just routine practice and barely scratches the surface. While I understand the dilemma for those tempted by fame in wealth at the end of the day they are ultimately complicit in the longstanding seedy, degenerate & completely corrupt politics of Hollywood.

reply

Every person that knew this was happening and did nothing, which includes law enforcement and the studios is to blame.

It's already been shown that reporting it to any of them made no difference to the crime because they were all complicit in covering it up and turning a blind eye, but the careers of those reporting the abuse certainly suffered. Do you not think that deserves comepnsation when they did nothing wrong?

Victims of crime are often compensated for what was done to them, so why should any of those women who got money be any different from other victims of crime, especially when everybody who should have done something turned their backs on them and allowed the abuse to carry on?

Stop blaming the victims. Blame everyone involved in the whole culture that allowed this to happen for so long.

reply

I am. That includes the victims.

reply