People claiming that Loki is in an alternate TVA at the end - Loki (2021) Discussion

[–] asom (6606) 3 years ago

Probably it's a bit more complicated. Timelines and loops.

The TVA might be outside of the timeline but it's still influenced by timelines. So killing "He who remains" they reset the whole universe, not just that timeline. And that includes the TVA, it's start and evolution.

Remember the last scene? Instead of having statues of the 3 TimeKeepers we saw a statue of "He who remains" ... so thie TVA IS 100% different. Why did Loki get back to that version?? NO idea.

But the show doesn't try to stay very consistent anyway.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Clearly there were no other Kangs in the timeline, that was the whole point. So the TVA had changed because Sylvie killed the other one. There is only one TVA, and it had changed when Loki went back. Seems obvious to me.

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[–] asom (6606) 3 years ago

He said "reincarnation baby" and "I'll see you soon". So it's implying that the whole timeline, from the beginning of the universe, it's reset. So the whole timeline, from the start, it's reset. Whatever happened in the past ... it's reset - never happened ...

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Yes. but we are talking traditional time travel rules, not multiverse. The history of the TVA changed, but there is only one TVA.

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[–] asom (6606) 3 years ago

Nothing is traditional in this show :D

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOIOjjqtcZk

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[–] FFNogoodnik (774) 3 years ago

Did I miss something, did they name him as Kang at some point or is everyone calling him Kang just because they read that is who he really is?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Because the actor has been announced as playing Kang in the next Ant Man movie.

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[–] FFNogoodnik (774) 3 years ago

Thanks. I was not aware of that. It confused me a lot plus but it seems like it is general knowledge. I do wish people referred to him by the character name used in this episode just so people that do not know do not need to ask like I did. :)

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[–] asom (6606) 3 years ago

He said at some point "I'm the conqueror" or "I'm a conqueror" :D

And, not that it matters much, wiki has him as Kang in Loki.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Or maybe people who don't know should just ask. Seems like a more reasonable proposition.

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[–] Tyalt (282) 3 years ago

I mean, seems like spoilers to me.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

I have basically zero patience at this point for people who go on movie message boards and complain about spoilers.
Last Saturday Kevin Smith was doing his live show, and wanted to talk about Black Widow, and there were people there in the audience who hadn't seen the film and didn't want him to talk about spoilers. I mean this was a live show that was going out to thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of viewers, and these people in the audience had the hubris to demand that he shouldn't talk about spoilers when they had voluntarily gone to his live show without seeing the movie first.
It's fucking obnoxious to go on message boards and demand that everyone else tip toe around discussing movies and TV all for YOU. Narcissistic even.

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[–] sslssg (30358) 3 years ago

If it was last Saturday, and the movie only came out on Friday, I honestly can see why they were asking for no spoilers.

I don't know what Live show this is as I stopped paying attention to Smith years ago. If it was on Youtube, people could easily leave the stream, but not so easily in person? Again, I really only know of The Evening With Kevin Smith shows, so I mean if it was advertised Kevin wants to talk Black Widow you have a great point.

The only issue I have on message boards is that sometimes I want to go to them to see if the movie is worth seeing. If massive spoilers are in the titles of the post it can be frustrating.

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[–] Tyalt (282) 3 years ago

I purposefully do not go to a board of something I haven’t watched. I also don’t watch trailers.

I watched Loki, so I came here. Haven’t seen the next Ant Man movie. Make sense?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

So casting news is spoilers now? Whatever.

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[–] DeeRagon (45) 3 years ago

Because, 1) Kang was a major villain in the 60s comics they haven't covered in the MCU, 2) He said he was called "The Conqueror, 3) he's wearing Kang's colors, 4) he's a villain with the theme of time travel 5) He's wearing Kang's comic costume in the statue depiction, 6) those of us who are long time fans of the comics can figure out these things quickly.

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[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

ANNNND ... the origin story he tells about himself is literally the story of Kang.

I sorta thought it was going to be Kang from the start. Time being involved and all.

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[–] ultravioletx (10222) 3 years ago

I could be wrong, but the show never really explained the TVA managing all timelines (universes). It was about sticking to the script of what that specific timeline was supposed to be, which is why they snatched Loki to begin with. He's supposed to die to Thanos in that specific timeline. His nexus event was grabbing the tessaract.

You could argue Sylvie and Loki being in the same TVA could go against that, but there's something weird about Sylvie. We know the nexus event of all the alternate-universe Lokis (Kid Loki killing Thor etc), but we don't know Sylvie's. So far it looks like they sent her to the TVA just for existing.

You could argue that a drawer full of infinity stones could go against it too. How did those stones get there if not from other universes? The show didn't explain.

For all we know, every Loki that Mobius was sent to correct resembled Tom Hiddleston, because that's that timeline's only Loki. Except for Sylvie who, again, is weird.

Now when it came to alternate-universal timeline Lokis converging into one area, it was in the Void. The Void is 100% outside all timelines and could be considered outside the TVA.

Then we get into The One Who Remains/Kang. He's outside them as well. And the show hinted that he's the guy who maintains the multiverse. So if he's the manager of the multiverse, then it makes sense the TVA is not, and that he created TVAs to handle their own timelines.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

There was only one Kang, that was spelled out very clearly. Therefore the TVA with another Kang cannot have been another TVA that existed at the same time. And why would Sylvie have deliverately sent Loki back to a different TVA? That makes no sense. The obvious answer is that she sent him back to the same TVA, which was now different because its history had been changed by Syvlie's actions.

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[–] ultravioletx (10222) 3 years ago

"The obvious answer is that she sent him back to the same TVA, which was now different because its history had been changed by Syvlie's actions."

So far in the MCU, every instance of "now different" has meant an alternate universe. You would have to prove that the Mobius and all other TVA people we saw previously in the show now no longer exist in any universe.

good luck with that

My theory is that Loki is now in the TVA that manages the primary Endgame timeline where Wandavision and Falcon/Winter Soldier take place. That's one way to bring Loki back after legitimately dying.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Good luck of making sense of anything in Loki if there are multiple TVA timelines. That would be a horrible mess. Time works differently in the TVA, Mobius spelled it out for you.

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[–] ultravioletx (10222) 3 years ago

Mobius is right. There is no time in the TVA. It operates outside of time. But you are confusing time with multiverse.

For example, there is a universe where Loki takes the tessaract and leaves with it, and a universe where Loki is hauled off to an Asgardian prison, both technically happening at the same time.

If each have their own TVA, that TVA can go to any point they want within that universe, but as far as I know, the TVA of one can't go to another's universe.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

If that were the case, then how would Kang deleted branches stop a multiversal war? Doesn't make sense does it? nope.

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[–] asom (6606) 3 years ago

Have you seen Dark??

If yes think Dark ...

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[–] ultravioletx (10222) 3 years ago

First of all, that's not Kang. That's a variant who became the ultimate watchdog The One Who Remains. He is charged with maintaining the multiverse. All other "Kangs" are not. With that OWR now no longer there to fulfill that duty, all the Kangs in their respective timelines are free to go to war against each other, probably ending with one of them becoming the next OWR.

Think of it this way. Every branch is a new universe. When the TVA spots a reality branching within its timeline, it prunes it to stop the creation of that new universe.

If there's only one TVA, then there is only one timeline, because they prune the rest. If they were pruned, then there's no multiverse, right? And no multiverse means Doctor Strange's 14,000,605 realities that he looked into did not exist.

Or... there are millions of TVAs that are all charged with maintaining their own timelines, pruning them whenever they branch.

Take your pick, I guess. Plus, the TVA has been sketchy from the start. Who knows what's what at this point.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Ok, do people not pay attention at all? Where do you think all those different Lokis come from? A simple question.
Geez.. "THE timeline"... Really?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

They came from the sloppy writing. Multiverse is a tecnhical term that is used by physicists to describe branching timeines. The series itself talked about a multiversal war in terms of branching timelines. If the series was going to make some distinction between an alternate timeline and "multiverse" then this DEFINITELY warranted an explanation. No such explanation was given, but somehow this is my fault for not paying attention?

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Dynamic physics in a comic book movie where shields bounce beyond gravity, magic exists and superheroes are more or less powerful depending on the plot? Oh my God you really haven't been paying attention at all have you?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

If you actually think that physics is my problem with the plot hole ridden script that makes no narrative sense, then whatever.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

It's not your only problem. But never mind. You've obviously given up on being informed.

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[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

Time travel and multiple alternate realities being theoretical/fictional, explain the rules to us. Time travel arguments are pointless.

I will agree that there are some writing issues with this show. But the end was great. Why not debate how impossible magic and time travel are instead of the "rules" you think exist for this fiction?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

I have at no point debated how impossible time travel is. The series cannot get its own story straight, that is the problem. There cannot be branches in the TVA, because it's outside of the timeline. This is what the series told us. It's not because I think there is some physical reason that the TVA can't have branches.
The TVA makes sure that there is only one timeline. OK fine. Nexus events have to be pruned within minutes before they pass a nexus point. Fine. Oh and buy the way, here is a variant of Loki from another timeline who was pruned when she was about 10 year old! Eh....what? So you think mutliverse is different to timelines? OK fine, but npt a single line of dialogue addressed this in the series. We are only told about different timelines. Don't you think if different sorts of alternate realities exist, this should have been addressed at some point? It's kind of important.

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[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

" but npt a single line of dialogue addressed this in the series"

This is a fair point. One does have to make assumptions in order for it all to make sense and they could have simply inserted five lines to straighten out what 6 different writers did not adequately discuss before hand.

"So you think mutliverse is different to timelines?"

Yeah, to me it is obvious but you are right ... they don't say and therefore I am imbuing it with my interpretation.

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

By now it's pretty clear that most of the stuff the TVA said about itself, timelines, and time at the beginning of the series, was a bunch of hooey.

This isn't Marvel setting up rules and then breaking them out of carelessness, this is both us and the Lokis finding out that the TVA orange thing was an "unreliable narrator".

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[–] AP (5261) 3 years ago

Yeah, it's weird that all six episodes gradually reveal the TVA was full of shit and yet people are still going, "But they saaaaaiiiid..." as if it mattered. The orgnaization was full of brainwashed idiots who never really knew what was going on, were taking orders from androids that weren't real, and were doing the bidding of a crazy evil dude at the end of the day. Why are people expecting consistency from this group?

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

Wow, so all plotholes are eliminated by "bad narrator...duuur". Actually they aren't. The multiverse is already a confusing concept, and it is the writers job to make the rules very clear to the audience, regardless of whether the TVA is a reliable narrator or not. The only thing that was fake about the TVA were the timekeepers and the history of the people staffing it. All of the rules about time travel hold, magic doesn't work inside the TVA, branches happen in "real time" inside the TVA.

They are not going to change any of these rules, obviously.

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[–] AP (5261) 3 years ago

And there are no plotholes regarding those rules so...

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

At this point I a more concerned about the series making any kind of narrative sense. Plot holes aside, there has to be some kind of limit as to what can an cannot happen withint the rules of the universe. The TVA was the thread holding the narrative together. On the timeline there can be branches and you go go back and forth between different points in time, order of time barely even has any meaning anymore. But we were assured that branches happen in "real time" in the TVA. So there was a linear narrative timeline in the TVA. Loki going to pompei happened at a certain point in time in the TVA, after he had been arrested by the TVA which on the timeline would have happened thousands of years later. If you take away the linear TVA time, then nothing makes narrative sense, and the whole series turns into a pile of dogshit.

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[–] Towelie_Towel (1732) 3 years ago

Ok, you're just trolling.

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[–] AP (5261) 3 years ago

My theory is that Kang wiped their memories and set up a statue of himself as the leader of the TVA.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 3 years ago

There wasn't really time for a statue to be built. Unless more time passed in the TVA than passed when Loki was on Planet Loki. But so far any time that passes when they go through a time door has always been real TVA time. You could argue that when they are pruned it is different, but when mobius traveled back, time still seemed to work the same.
I think it was just reset. There can't be TVA branches, but the TVA can be changed, because it is created by whichever Kang wins the Multiversal war.

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[–] AP (5261) 3 years ago

“There wasn’t time for a statue to be built”

Yeah, it’s almost like the TVA is an organization that exists out of time and is controlled by a time traveler. Silly, right?

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[–] fani (380) 3 years ago

Ok alienzen, that is a fantastic logical point. I agree with your summary - the TVA must itself exist outside the timeline of the universe for them to be able to determine what timeline is the sacred one and how to detect and chop off branches.

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