why the hate?

Luke senses where to fire a gun, she's using hypnosis. These are not the same thing. She's using more advanced techniques with less training.

We come in mid-training with Obi-Wan and Luke - they might have been working things for who knows how long?

Sure, they're both naturals. But Luke still needed a guide to show him how to use the Force, with the guide he did receive training and advice (however little), and he still required help to use it at the end. Rey received no training, had no guide, and just used advanced Force powers anyway.

None of this explains away her other abilities, and that's part of the problem. It's not that she's got one superhuman talent, it's that she excels in *all* areas. She's the best fighter of the new characters, she's a mechanical wizard (again, I'll stress how much better she is relative to established engineering characters like Chewie), she's a great pilot (not as good as Poe, but better than everybody else), she's the best at the Force, and so on. Some of these abilities are explained (I buy that she's got mechanical experience and is good in a fight because of her background), but others aren't (why is she so good at flying starships? how can she use the Force with no training at all?), and the aggregate is what brings her down.

And, again, she almost never fails. Everything she sets her hand to she succeeds at, at least in TFA, with the sole exception (I think?) of getting captured - but again, even that is but a minor setback; she rescues herself.

There's a big difference between a character having skills suitable to their imagined history and characters having all skills in great abundance. There's a big difference between showing character advancement by having a character learn skills (training on the Falcon) and then paying it off (applying that to his pilot abilities), versus showing a character just doing things they couldn't do before. There is a gulf between "some training" in an exercise on the Falcon and "none".

> Oh, and Anakin is a fucking mechanical whiz at 10.

Mozart wrote his first symphony when he was 8. History does not indicate he had force powers.

He did it with Obi Wan helping him and if it hadn't been for the Rebel pilot or Han Solo he never would have been in any position to fire the rockets in the first place. Rey would have been able to do it the first time with no help at all.

It was absolutely a problem in TFA, now if the sequels had gone in a different direction like Episode 2 and 3 did and showed the hero struggling and having weaknesses maybe that could have corrected her Mary Sueness but they didn't.

If TPM was the only prequel then you might have a point about Anakin being a Mary Sue, but it isn't and we the audience know that his life is going to be a downfall so seeing him as a happy little kid who is very skilled works because we know that nothing but darkness awaits him. Bad comparison on your part.

Another bad excuse, the prequels at least established a sense of danger, I legitimately feared for Obi Wan on Mustafar because I didn't know how things were going to turn out and at that point Anakin had surpassed Obi Wan, there were actual stakes and tension, you cannot say the same for the ST/Rey.

Was that last bit an edit? The last two paragraphs? Or did I just miss it? Well, either way, I have some answers...

Yes, Anakin is overpowered. He's absolutely a crummy character, poorly written, and that's one of (many) reasons the Prequels don't stack up to the OT or even work at all. They have sloppy writing. Anakin is given too many "gifts". He's an engineer, a pilot, a Force master, a fighter, etc., etc.

Yet, still, we see differences. First, Anakin has every skill in the book, but his character is portrayed as deeply flawed. With the exception of the cherub Anakin in Phantom Menace, the prequels do drill in that Anakin is volatile and childish.

Mary Sue status is about an aggregate. It's not that they have one super-ability, it's that they have all super-abilities, plus everybody loves them (true of Rey, not of Anakin), plus they're better than everybody, plus they're great people (true of Rey, not of Anakin).

I will agree Anakin is a poorly-crafted character, is over-powered, and is at least Sue-ajascent if not a Mary-Sue. But, that's also moving the goalposts: I was talking about Luke being mislabelled a Sue and Rey qualifying.

Here's another important point: people *did* complain about Anakin. People lashed out about how stupid it was to have an overpowered child showing up everybody that Jake Lloyd was bullied and trolled into mental health issues and he quit acting. People complain about Anakin's characterization all the time.

As for Kylo, yes, he is super-powerful and stops a blaster shot with his mind. He's also temperamental, childish, (abundant character flaws), is not shown to be the best at every skill, only a subset that makes sense for him, and most importantly: Kylo is the villain, not the hero. Villains start strong to give heroes a worthy obstacle to challenge them. Darth Vader was a demi-god so we worried when Luke fought him. There are different rules for heroes. The aggregate doesn't show him to be a Mary-Sue.

I've said it elsewhere, I'll repeat it: I understand Rey's abilities with engineering and fighting. Luke was a good pilot. But Luke was shown to be about the same level as other Rebels, and lesser than Han. Rey is the *best* to the point of being better at fixing the Falcon than Han or Chewie. She is a paragon of virtue, loved by all, top-grade skills (again: advanced Force abilities only used by Jedi/Sith *masters* with literally *no* training; didn't even know the Force was a confirmed thing at the start of the film), and it's the *aggregate* that makes a Mary Sue.

And, again, I don't mind Rey. I liked her as a protagonist. But that doesn't stop me from seeing the bad writing and that she was designed to be "perfect".

Her being a Palpatine doesn't excuse anything. Luke was the son of Anakin Skywalker, the being with the highest midi-chlorian count Qui Gon Jin had ever seen in a lifeform and even he didn't always succeed and he had to actually work to get to where he was. Luke wasn't even close to being a threat to Vader until his third movie, Rey defeated Kylo every time and that blaster shot he got is a pathetic excuse, he didn't seem to be in a whole lot of pain and his range of swing seemed to be pretty dead on, Rey however had never held a lightsaber before and just found out she had the force 5 minutes ago, Kylo should have been able to beat her with both hands tied behind his back. There was no buildup at all in the ST, every allegedly big epic moment just kind of happened and without buildup it means nothing and it isn't earned. Spielberg and Lucas are the masters of buildup IMO, Jar Jar Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy don't know the first thing about it. Jar Jar has a serious case of writers ADD and he keeps the audience bouncing around from place to place and doesn't properly develop anything.

Also FYI: Deflecting to other characters you deem to be poorly written doesn't magically make Rey well written. You may want to alter your debate tactic.