This is a serious question. If you believe that you can be born in the wrong body and that gender is not about biology, but rather how you feel, do you believe that goth is a gender? If not, why doesn't goth count, but things like zir/ze and xe/zem do?
shareI don't consider goth to be a gender. Goth is more like a style or attitude than a gender.
shareI don’t consider people who have a Y chromosome to be a woman but the far left cult will call me transphobic just for thinking that.
shareI agree about the goth part, but when people bring up gender, they say they we have been given gender roles (ie playing with dolls, wearing skirts = woman) and that's what gender is. I always feel like they're confusing gender with attributes.
sharePunk, mod, goth, emo. Meet the new “counter culture”, same as the old “counter culture”.
They want to be freaks. They want to stand out. They want to shock people. They just don't want you to treat them any differently. Shit makes no sense whatsoever. The counter-culture has become the opposite.
shareHow does one biological sex say they can "feel" like the other biological sex? Do men know what woman feel like? Do women know what men feel like?
If you're butch, be butch. If you're fem, be fem. But please stop trying to convince the rest of us, because no one really gives a shit! 💩
Amen!
sharePeople are trying to say sex and gender are different. If gender is infinite, then I can claim to be anything while pushing aside my biological sex. If I say that my gender is goth, people would think that I'm mocking transgenders which isn't the case. If they say gender is infinite, where do we draw the line?
share"If they say gender is infinite, where do we draw the line?"
According to the Libs and progressives, there IS NO line. Anyone is free to identify as anything they want. Facts, science, common sense, and biology be damned.
It's all about your "feelings," and we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, now, would we?
Today, I think I'll identity as a cat. Tomorrow, a tree! Who's to tell me I'm wrong?
WHY DRAW A LINE?...WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO FIT INTO YOUR CATAGORIES...LET PEOPLE BE WHO THEY ARE AND SHUT UP.🙂
shareWould you date a 12-year-old who identifies as a 20-year-old? Why draw the line at 18 being legal then?
shareTHAT MAKES NO SENSE...AGE IS AGE...PLUS...NOBODY RATIONAL IS MAKING THESE IDENTIFY AS A TREE OR A DOLPHIN OR GOD BULLSHITS...PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED AND LIFE IS HARD...HOW SOMEBODY ELSE FEELS OR "IDENTIFIES" IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRIES AND IT SHOULD BE THE SAME FOR THE REST OF YOU AS WELL...IF YOU KEEP STICKING YOUR NOSE IN DARREN'S WINDOW. SOONER OR LATER SAMANTHA IS GONNA WIGGLE HER NOSE AT YOU.
shareOf course age is age, but under 18 is considered a child and over 18 is considered an adult. We as a society have set that definition. Why can't I consider a trans woman a man? Why is that diseases like prostate cancer can only affect biological men? If I identify as a woman, does that mean I'm immune from prostate cancer?
shareYOU ARE DEEP DOWN THE BULLSHIT RABBIT HOLE.
shareI'm just saying, if you buy milk from a cow that believes it a goat, it's still going to be cow's milk.
shareTHAT MILK IS NOT FOR ME...THUS MY THOUGHTS ON IT'S QUALITY ARE MOOT.
shareFailed opportunity to say moooooooooot.
shareOr as Joey put it: -
https://youtu.be/8bo54wE_rJU
One of those popular shows I've never seen an episode of.
shareI think looking at history always helps. Over 18 is only a legal adult because it was the way the government got young people to go to war. They still couldn't drink alcohol, adopt a child, drive a bus or receive a full minimum wage, but they could fight in a war. People who are 21 should still be considered real legal adults imo.
But when it comes to gender, it's not biological, it's sociological and psychological. So for prostate cancer, it can only affect someone with a prostate, I think that's pretty basic biology.
. So for prostate cancer, it can only affect someone with a prostate, I think that's pretty basic biology.
Actually, there has been. Many hermaphroditic people are born, they are not the majority, but they're also not rare. I literally just watched a video about a woman who has two wombs and two vaginas. The word of biological sex is more complex than you might imagine.
Also, there's a difference between being biologically female and being a woman. So yes, you are affected by your biology as much you are by your mental gender. But I don't agree that it's simpler to just go along with your biology because why wouldn't trans people just do that? Why would anyone purposefully choose to be discriminated against?
Your mind leads your body, and if your mind doesn't believe that it is it's assigned sex, than I don't think pretending to be what you "ought" to be is simple for anyone in that position. I think it's easy for two things to exist at once.
It's also a fucking birth DEFECT. Stress on the DEFECT aspect.
Who the fuck is discriminating against trans people? The world has literally been turned upside down for this tiny minority of the population, to the point that we can't even criticize them or their ideology.
Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/
I don't believe that and I question any study that comes to that conclusion.
shareFrom what I read, women can't have prostates. However, they do have similar glands as a prostate which can also become cancerous. https://vitusprostate.com/us/prostate-cancer-is-a-womens-problem/
shareHOW SOMEBODY ELSE FEELS OR "IDENTIFIES" IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRIES
True KOWALSKI wisdom right there...
You obviously can't handle your own bullshit "logic" being used against you.
shareYOU NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING DO YOU?...YOU JUST DROP COMMENTS...TRY ACTUALLY READING AND UNDERSTANDING BEFORE YOU WORK SO HARD TO ADD YOUR BULLSHIT.
shareIt's comical that you actually 'think' that. I put that in quotes because you really don't think at all.
shareYOU SEEM EXTRA ANNOYING LATELY...YOU WEAR THE SKIN OFF YOUR CRANK AGAIN?
shareJust tired of liberal bullshit and dumbasses like you who can't seem to find the caps lock key.
shareI CAN find IT ...I JUST CHOOSE NOT TOO...JUST LIKE YOU COULD CHOOSE TO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND BE LESS OF A WHINEY DICKBAG...I THINK YOU WILL FIND YOUR CHOICE TO BE QUITE LIBERATING.
shareMind my own business??? Oh the irony! From the party that literally is intent on minding everyone's business. Thanks for the laugh, dickbag.
shareBecause there are real-world implications. Trans ideologues are not merely asking to “let them be.” The redefining of “man,” “woman,” “boy” and “girl” is now being addressed as a medical condition to be treated with puberty blockers (for children), cross-sex hormones and surgeries that result in permanent sterility and consign patients to a lifetime of medical bills. The redefinition is also threatening the safety of women in prisons, as well as compromising the safety, fairness and dignity of women and girls in sports, as males who simply “identify” as girls or women are allowed access to these protected spaces.
shareGOOD FOR YOU...YOT HIT ALL THE SCUMBAG BOILER PLATE POINTS...YOU KNOW...THE POINTS THAT DON'T REALLY APPLY TO 99% OF ANYONE INCLUDING TRANS...THE BULLSHIT THAT ONLY APPLIES TO THE ASSHOLES USING THE CURRENT STATE OF THE WORLD TO ADVANCE THEIR SHIT OR FUCK THINGS UP.
shareYou have it backwards. The progressive world is enthusiastically endorsing the assholes using transgender ideology to take advantage. Here’s a perfect example of the stupid catering that’s going on in bedrock institutions like the media and law enforcement
https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/woman-charged-after-allegedly-sexually-assaulting-boy-6-in-toronto-park-1.5507641
Could you imagine how confused the victim was when he tried to describe his attacker as a man and everyone at the police station and court house was trying to correct the kid from inappropriately “mis-gendering” his attacker? The kid must have been completely befuddled about the idiocy of the adults who were supposed to protect him
Because it’s about control. Leftwing losers who can’t get their own lives in order give up and decide they’re going to control other people instead. Be it their constantly evolving “offensive” language, or self described “sexual identify”. They can’t even get a handle on the definition of gender. Which is simple as 1+1=2.
These people are the mentally ill of society, giving them any say over what is acceptable behavior is a cancer with no end.
Worse these clowns are now running previously established corporations, universities of higher debt, and the public education abortion.
This will not stop until these people are put where they belong, in the corner to be ignored.
They can't even define "woman". They know they feel like one but don't know what the hell one is. They're ridiculed because this shit makes no sense whatsoever. It is completely illogical but they expect the rest of us to go along with it.
shareGender isn't entire about biology regardless of whether you think there are only 2 genders or not. It's based entirely on the social and cultural references we learn about the sexes and what makes up a man and woman, how we interpret that learning and how it applies to our specific experiences and lives, and has a lot to do with what we're taught, where we're born, etc.
Goth as a fashion has no relation to sex or gender, so it can't be considered a gender.
Bullshit. When I go shopping for a wristwatch, there are two genders. Male and female. Neither has a friggin' thing to do with how I "feel". It has to do with the size of my wrist, versus the size of the watch's case and the length bracelet/strap. Men are typically physically larger than women. Men like styles that are more masculine, women like styles that are more feminine. That is the difference. No feelings involved. If you're a dude and you wanna wear a woman's watch, do it. Nobody gives a shit.
shareWatches don't have a gender. They tell the time.
The fact that you can even ascribe gender characteristics to them is a learned thing. The fact that
Men like styles that are more masculine, women like styles that are more feminineis a learned thing, since masculinity and femininity don't belong to a specific gender anyway. Because gender is a performance that we are constantly putting on, based on whether we adhere to the binary you just described or not.
More bullshit. So women are feminine because they learned it? Total bullshit. Gender is a performance? More bullshit. It's always comical when the "trust the science" crowd utterly disregards the physiological and psychological, tangible differences between men and women. You only "trust the science" when it fits the narrative.
You're also blind to the hypocrisy in your "logic". If it's learned behavior, in your way of thinking, men who are effeminate are that way because they choose to act that way? How can you identify as a gender opposite that which you are born with if it's just all learned behavior? It's bullshit.
There are two genders, period. Trust the science. Be yourself, without having to label it and/or require others to affirm it. In other words, grow the fuck up. Nobody cares about your arbitrary bullshit pronouns.
If being mentally retarded was a gender, Lil Craigy would be at peace.
shareIf “masculinity and femininity don't belong to a specific gender anyway,” there should be no reason for the progressive effort to compel people to participate in personal pronoun rituals. This is one of the many inherent contradictions with neo-gender ideology. Under the ideology, when someone asks for your pronouns, and you respond with “he/him,” even though you may be communicating the simple fact that you’re male, a gender ideologue interprets this as an admission that you embrace the social roles and expectations associated with being male. This is a manifestly regressive belief system in which I refuse to participate.
shareBut you're already participating in personal pronoun rituals anyway. You meet cis people and you call them Mr. and Mrs. or Miss or Ms. You call your doctors Dr., your professors Professor., etc. If you're refusing to participate in these rituals altogether, okay. But if you do participate to this extent, then there's no reason to deny trans people this right either because we all know men and women who don't strictly adhere to the social roles and expectations associated with their biological sex. Should we then call Susan, Larry, and David Samantha, if they don't perform their biological sex to the extent we prefer? Makes no sense, imo.
shareYou make no sense.
shareI was not suggesting I rejected use of traditional pronouns. I reject the emerging effort to force me to declare my pronouns. I refuse to respond to the question, “What are your pronouns?” It is a question which tries to compel me to endorse the premise that certain personalities, behaviors and preferences are only compatible with certain types of anatomies. Here’s an analogy: Imagine if my boss was Nancy Reagan who in real life was obsessed with astrology. Now imagine she encouraged all workers to begin workplace conversations with, “Hi, I’m a Sagittarius. What’s your sign?” To respond with my own star sign would be to signal tacit agreement with the belief system of astrology or, at a minimum, operate at work as if that was a rational belief system.
shareThat's a very verbose way of saying, I agree with the old way of doing things, and I disagree with the new way of doing things. But they're technically the same. Pronouns are already in your vocabulary, and you already expect people to refer to you by your name and your pronouns. That's all that most people are asking for too, however they identify.
If they're asking for more than that, then it makes sense if you think that's unreasonable. But is that what's happening? Is it really comparative to astrology? I don't think so.
Makeup is generally a female thing. You don't need makeup to be goth, the same way you don't need to wear a skirt to be a woman. I feel like people are describing gender the same way you would as as attribute.
shareMakeup is not a female thing. It never has been. The Victorian era tried to stop men from wearing it and then persecuted women for wearing it, but that has never stopped men from using it, particularly men in the arts and entertainment industries.
I also think you do need makeup to be goth, since it's a trend most easily identifiable through dark eyeliner. But again, being a goth has no relation to the way you interpret your sex, it's just a fashion trend. Dying your hair doesn't make you one gender or another, and neither does wearing eyeliner. So I don't think there's any correlation to being a goth and gender performativity.
So I don't think there's any correlation to being a goth and gender performativity.
Gender is just the way you perform your sex, so it has its limitations, but yes it can be performed many ways - that wouldn't make you genderless, so long as you're actually performing it. If you don't feel connected to your biological sex, then any way you are actively choosing to perform against what is the norm is still a performance and is still taking into account the ways gender is normally performed ie. wearing women's lingerie or playing football. So idk if I would consider that gender-less = how do you escape what's ingrained since before birth (people paint their babies' rooms pink or blue based on gender before a baby is born)?
But again, being a goth isn't about performing any type of gender, even non-gender, it's tied to rebellion in music. I know people have argued in the past that the uniform look among goth boys and girls creates a uniformity that removes the idea of passive femininity, and I'm also aware of the way musicians have tied being a goth to queerness, but I personally think that's reaching and is pretty much antithetical to the rebellious nature of being a goth, since mass uniformity isn't rebellious.
That's a great response. But I think there are people who think that there are no limitations to what you can be. I've seen people say that they are a universe. Then you have guys like this who say that the concept of gender shouldn't exist, but they still identify as a woman.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yUL4prrEsM
I mean, science. Gravity. You can't be a balloon. The thing is, like I mentioned, it's hard to even imagine what a gender-less society looks like because we are born with gender ingrained from the get go. That's why it's often just easier to identify as the opposite sex, because it's difficult to find the language and actions that correlate best with how you feel - that's why I say there are limitations, because some of the things people would like to exist just don't exist.
I'd say a really interesting trans-person to listen to is Rose of Dawn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak8v1LxdavY&t=1343s She's someone who has been living as a trans woman for years and she doesn't always agree with other trans-people - actually, she often disagrees, which makes her points seem a lot more genuine than the majority of voices you hear.
The problem with your position is that it COMPLETELY ignores the science behind it. Men and women do not differ only in genitals and physical appearance. You fucks put down religion and creationism only to completely ignore the evolution of humanity. Strip society and culture away from people and the differences between men and women will still exist. We think differently. We feel differently. We are different tools for different jobs. There's a reason why women are mothers. Men are protectors, hunters and builders. I'm sorry but you people are mutilating basic human biology and psychology, core scientific fact to justify your fucked-up feelings. It's purely mental illness. THAT is the learned behavior.
shareThis is almost incomprehensible tbh. Who are lumping me in with? I've not brought religion up once - but it's odd to argue for science while standing up for religion, which is faith-based rather than fact-based, kinda the opposite of science. What point are you even making about evolution in relation to religion?
The reason women give birth is because of their reproductive systems, but not all women who can give birth should be mothers and women who can't aren't automatically not women. Also, if you look at studies of which sex was more successful at keeping themselves and their communities alive, it was actually women. Women gathered and hunted food with safety in mind, while men were far more impulsive and died at way higher rates due to giving into their impulses and hunting dangerous targets - so they were not the better providers.
You're also ignoring history and the fact that, when men went to war and women took over the workforce, they quite naturally fit into their new roles, thrived and kept the economy afloat. Not to mention the countless women who've fought in wars, like Shaka Zulu's all-female force of fighters or the Night Witches.
Feel free to point out what you think is learned behaviour, but try not deny what actually is first.
I know, logic and reason are a foreign concept to you people.
shareWint3rFir3, you are wasting your time trying to explain anything at all to Lil Craigy if the explanation exceeds the parameters of his narrow capacity of comprehension. Lil' Craigy suffered some trauma to his brain at birth; vice grips were used in lieu of birthing forceps.
shareYou're right, but what's a dipshit like me to do? lol I can't help myself. But I'll take your advice and stop here.
shareI completely understand someone feeling like they are not the gender they were born with. There are other transgender people like the woman in your link who think the same. Dr. Debbie Hayton is an interesting character. She appears on that same channel in your link. Buck Angel, a porn star, feels it offensive to them to say that he is a real man because with undermines his transition.
share"Makeup is not a female thing."
More bullshit. 99.99% of the people who wear make-up today, in virtually any civilized nation, are women. What men wear make-up? Effeminate gays and drag queens. They wear make-up to look like women. Which, in effect, proves the point. In fact it is the primary method men use to look like women.
The problem with you people is that you feel everything and 'think' about nothing. That's why it seems so illogical to the rest of us, because that's exactly what it is, illogical.
THAT IS A TAUGHT BEHAVIOR...YOU KNOW...THAT THING THE OTHER GUY SAID AND YOU SCREAMED BULLSHIT...BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
shareHow are you in a thread about goths and still unable to acknowledge that men wear makeup? Like is there a logic bypass surgery people are getting nowadays?
Also, look at history. Makeup was and always has been worn by men, just like wigs and heels were often favoured by men in the past. Why did this change? Conditioning. Just like men were fine wearing all things considered feminine in the past, they were then not fine because they were told not to be fine. That's the whole point about gender - we are taught what it is and what it isn't, and those teachings change over time, depending on where you live, what's acceptable and unacceptable in your society, etc. It isn't an entirely natural phenomena.
But makeup still came back for men though because subculture always brings back what's profitable. Look at South Korea. Make up for men is booming. Makeup in the movie industry. Yes, all the straight men you love in movies wear makeup, deal with it.
Where did I say men don't wear make-up? Or deny that people in front of the camera wear it? I grew up with hair bands in the `80's, dipshit.
Not talking about actors in movies or history either. There's a difference between people covering up imperfections to be on TV and men trying to look like women. The point is that none of this is normal behavior for men.
You liberals talking about logic is the funniest thing I'll read this week.
Lol I'm not American, I don't prescribe to your stupidly divisive liberal/conservative dichotomy. The fact that that's the only way you can debate a topic, by bringing it back to "oh you silly liberals you" is laughable. Use facts.
Here's an example of one: the fact that you believe there is such a thing as "normal" behaviour FOR MEN and FOR WOMEN means that you have been taught that there is opposing behaviour to those, right? That is classic conditioning. It's got nothing to do with what is normal, it's all a lie. Life is a lie.
Men wearing makeup is normal. It started with tribes. Makeup was threatening, but it was also helpful in terms of camouflage, and things like tattoos, another form of cosmetic surgery, helped to signify a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood.
Now think of all these famous men, like you said, hair bands of the 80s, Prince - who literally sang "I'm not a woman. I'm not a man. I'm something that you'll never understand", emo and goth bands from the 1960s all the way into the early 2000s, Bowie, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger, Marilyn Manson, Boy George, Tim Curry, etc. All these men wearing makeup, creating iconic makeup looks that have become world wide recognized classics, but makeup isn't normal for men?
You really think the liberal/conservative thing only applies to Americans? It's so comical how you view yourselves as the enlightened ones. How many labels do you throw around?
There is such a thing as "normal" behavior. Some of it is learned, some of it is cultural, some of it is not. Again, you completely dismiss the inherent differences in men and women. Which is typical, for LIBERALS.
Boy George and Marilyn Manson, let's use those examples. Why did they put on make-up? To shock people. Is that normal behavior? No. Does the average male put on make-up to go to town and buy groceries? Uh, no. Do virtually ALL women put their face on to go to town? Yep. Why? Because make-up is primarily a female thing.
Emo and goth bands did not exist in the `60's. Do you even know what you're talking about? Curt Cobain said, "everyone is gay". Does that make it true? No. I know that's what you want but you're not gonna get it. I'm sorry but if you put on make-up as part of your daily routine, that is not normal behavior and people will look at you funny for doing it.
Do you know any trans people personally? If so, maybe you should pose this “serious question” to them directly rather than posting something in a section of a forum where you know very well you’re just going to get some back slapping from like minded people who are just waiting for the opportunity to lay the boot into a maligned minority once again.
shareI don't know any personally. But there are a lot of left leaning people here who could share their opinion. On the politics board themselves, I'd say almost half are liberal.
shareWell this isn’t necessarily a political issue, I think there’s a definite reason you posted this here as opposed to GD. A quick scan above tells me you got exactly the reaction you were after from the usual suspects.
shareTrans topics on GD often get deleted. I didn't get any reaction I wanted, because I wanted to see what people thought. I never once ridiculed transgender people, I only criticized the idea that gender can be anything and I never attacked anyone who opposed my opinion.
shareI like you a lot but I don’t believe you’re being 100% genuine here. We’ve both been around a long time and we know how these things work. Post a trans topic in politics and the majority of responses will be people banging on about freaks and mental illness. You know very well what most people here think, this topic just invites them to repeat the same thoughts they have expressed a gazillion times before.
shareOf course there's going to be backlash, but that shouldn't stop the discussion. If you look above, you'll notice that I didn't respond to the more aggressive people who actually agreed with me and I was never hostile to the people who disagreed.
shareBut really where is the discussion? If you’re honest your whole point boils down to “I don’t believe that people can identify as a gender they were not born into” and you’re using an erroneous analogy about goths to support that position. It’s basically a variation of the “if I identify as a dolphin” argument we see here on the reg. To me it does nothing to generate any serious discussion of the trans condition, it simply invites more nastiness and ridicule. I think you would be less inclined to start these topics if you have ever felt the effects of any sort of real prejudice yourself.
shareI'm not going to use the dolphin analogy because dolphins aren't human. I also hate when people use that "I identify as an attack helicopter" joke. Goths are human and anyone can be goth.
Maybe my argument isn't clear enough. Trans people who transition generally start dressing as the gender they transition to. If it's male to female, they'll start wearing makeup and skirts. But because they say gender is infinite, couldn't goth be considered a gender? If you believe you are goth and started dressing like one, who's to say that goth isn't a gender? There are trans people who say that gender is a universe.
One of the reasons why I'm against the concept that gender is how you feel is because then the concept of someone being gay can't exist. Let's say that I'm gay. I see this hot looking dude walking down the street and I think to myself, "what a hunk!" If that person presents himself as male but feels female, does that mean homosexuality is defined by how someone feels and has nothing to do with physical attraction?
Ok bro you need to back it up now. That last paragraph is pure nonsense, and frankly I expect more from you. Being gay is totally about physical attraction and is not defined by the gender identity of the person you’re attracted to. I mean come on, how would you know that the “hunk” you’re perving on might identify as female? You’re attracted to what they look like, not what they identify as, which you would have absolutely know way of knowing without talking to them. Even then, you might still be attracted to their physical appearance if they identify as another gender. Or you might just be attracted to the person they are, which I know is a zany out there concept for some, that you could fall in love with a personality, because everything has to be clearly defined in boxes so we all don’t get too confused, right??
share
Being gay is totally about physical attraction and is not defined by the gender identity of the person you’re attracted to.
I should add this. There is an organization in the UK that agrees with what I'm saying called the LGB alliance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
Because trans activists don't like being exluded from the gay/lesbian/queer discussion, they think this is a hate group.
Honestly, I've always wonder why the "T" was there in "LGBTQ" when being trans has nothing to do with the other 4 letters.
There's 2 kinds...
Transgenders, and Transtrenders.
Transgenders transition and that's the end of it, they live their lives and don't bother others.
Transtrenders are all the other freaks...like the "It's MA'AM!" person.
I think transtrenders fall more of into trans activists. Non-trans trans activists make things worse than they need to be.
share