How can Han Solo not have heard of Jedi and the Force... - Obi-Wan Kenobi (2022) Discussion

[–] cyguration (3844) 2 years ago

They're a Sequel Trilogy creation that doesn't fit into the story at all.

It made sense in the original trilogy and prequel trilogy that most people hadn't heard of Jedi/Sith (especially Sith) because they had very minor background roles in much larger conflicts.

The Jedi were essentially diplomats during the Prequel Trilogy and even in that era they were still considered more myth than anything because they stayed in the shadows for the most part and weren't broadcast about in public. And after they were branded as terrorists by Palpaltine (to the rest of the senate) it wasn't like most people would have known about them once they were excommunicated and hunted down and killed. It would make sense that most people would consider them myth some 30 years later.

The Sequel Trilogy-era seems to be retconning all of that and poorly.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

The Jedi were fighting a major Galaxy-wide war that lasted years. How could they not be known for what they are? Any pretense of them being diplomats went out the window once the clone wars started. And even if they were known before that mostly as peace keepers, they were doing this for generations and were recruiting padawans from all over the galaxy. Everyone on the streets of Coruscant (and everywhere else) seemed to know a Jedi by sight and there was a huge Jedi temple in the heart of the city.

Anyway, my critique is of Kenobi the series not the OT or Prequels. My critique of the prequels is an entirely different matter not related to this. I find the status of the Jedi in the prequels vis-a-vis the OT reasonable enough. Not entirely sure I believe they had all the Marvel comics superpowers depicted in the prequels since we never see Ben, Yoda or Darth do these things, but again, that's another matter. The existence of Inquisitors on Tatooine and elsewhere is very problematic in light of what is told to us in previous installments.

reply

[–] papamihel (1576) 2 years ago

Basically: it's a big galaxy and there is no internet.
Very few people had a cause to encounter anyone using the Force. For everyone else the Jedi were a minor religious order with ties to the Republican government.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

The old-timer at the bar on Tatooine is going to tell tales about Inquisitors in Mos Eisley whether there is an internet or not... and that's just one isolated example of knowledge being verbally passed down of which there should literally be billions. Besides, how do we know there is nothing like the internet in the Star Wars universe?

And come on. The Jedi seemed pretty important and well-known to me in the prequels at least.

reply

[–] Galactus03 (4289) 2 years ago

I think you are nitpicking a bit here.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I think it's basic plot stuff.

reply

[–] Galactus03 (4289) 2 years ago

No. You are worried because of a few lines from Han. Look at your very own planet earth. Look at all the variety of cultures, languages etc. Look at all the stuff people believe and DONT believe. We still have scores of people that believe the vaccine causes cancer. We have people that believe god heals wounds etc. Etc. The Star Wars universe is HUGE. It possible for an entire planets population NOT to all know about Jedi.

I dont know about all types of music or sports or tv shows. Stuff that IS a religion to nm others.....

Think of it that way. It really is a non issue..

If you want to see a show with some major continuity issues. Look at Star Trek. The new series STRANGE NEW WORLDS..is a direct prequel to TOS. They made the Enterprise Bigger. Khans great granddaughter now served with Spock and Pike as did Uhura. Plus they changed Lieutenant Kyle from an Irishman to an Asian. Again its NOT an alternate reality. Its is an actual prequel to Shatners Show.

So in comparison Star Wars is almost airtight....in story and looks....Star Trek is all over the place...

reply

[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

The sequel trilogy has nothing to do with the Inquisitors.

reply

[–] papamihel (1576) 2 years ago

If people with talent and brains were doing this the Inquisition would have been working in secret.

reply

[–] Boricanator (1369) 2 years ago

A few things come to mind.

First, Solo says that he doesn’t believe in the force. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t heard of the Jedi.

He was also raised in the slums of Corelia where he didn’t see much and didn’t travel off world. The events of Solo: A Star Wars Story took place a year before this series.

So, Han is unlikely to have seen anything about the Jedi. Just heard some stories. He probably doesn’t believe them. And we have no reason to believe he’s ever had an encounter with the Inquisitors.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

He was a smuggler and was an adult when Order 66 went down. He and a lot of other people should have known about it. Maybe I shouldn't have said "haven't heard about it". He probably heard about it, but being a worldly kind of guy and the right age I feel he should have not only known about it but known it was largely true. This is my opinion, at any rate.

reply

[–] Boricanator (1369) 2 years ago

We’ll according to the sources I looked up, he was 13 when Order 66 happened.

So, a 13 year old orphan exploited in Corelia. He probably wasnt too in tuned with galactic politics.

He probably never dealt with a Force User until he met Obi Wan and Luke. As we saw in the series, Jedi and other force users kept a low profile.

Han seems to be the kind of guy that would only believe what he sees.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

He still should have heard about it when he reached Tatooine. The Hut (or anyone else really) would likely be more than happy to employ bounty hunters or tip off Inquisitors for money. Han didn't hear a whiff of anything about Inquisitors at anytime? Even if he didn't for some reason, wouldn't many people be aware of it? It wasn't just happening on Tatooine either. I'm still not buying it.

reply

[–] Boricanator (1369) 2 years ago

Hearing it is one thing, seeing and believing it are another.

It’s not like Inquisitors were constantly going to Tatooine. That is the outer rim. The Empire didn’t mess much with it back then. Even that old lady Reva killed said the Empire had no jurisdiction there.

My guess is the Inquisitors didn’t come back since the Jedi they were looking for was dead.

Han probably knows about the Inquisitors. He just probably thinks of them as strong Imperial Soldiers instead of Force Users.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

Maybe the role and scale of the Inquisitor movement will be made more clear by the end of this series, and all of this will be academic. Although Disney's past track record gives me little confidence that this will actually occur, perhaps Deborah Chow hasn't drunk as deeply from the "Mystery Box" Kool-Aid as her predecessor J.J. Abrams and may actually tell a proper story.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

So if he was... 35 at the time of ANH, he'd have been a teen when Order 66 went down.

So he would have gone to school during the Jedi era, and well. He was Han Solo, and it's not like Han Solo would pay attention during history or Civics class!

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

Maybe, but it's weak and I don't personally buy it. You would have to be pretty disinterested life in general not to know there is a major galactic war going in your teens, if for now other reason to fear being drafted or the effect on the economy just as you are about to enter the work force.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

People who are struggling to stay alive can indeed pay little attention to the news, they have more important things to think about (like where their next meal is coming from), and really, a distant war between two groups of people who are doing nothing for the poor and struggling doesn't make that much difference to some, they'll still be poor and struggling no matter who wins.

And being drafted would mean regular meals and the chance of pilot training.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

Yeah, but he still hasn't heard about it after the war literally came right to the doorstep of the Mos Eisley, where he has just set up shop? He has no curiosity? Not one single person in Mos Eisley speaks of Inquisitors? We talking about a civilization far in advance of our own. They have the ability to stay abreast of what's going on at least as efficient if not more than we do. After all, people in the Himalayas know about what's going on in Ukraine, if they chose to follow it.

I'm sorry. You have to try to hard to make this work.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

He's a smuggler who does illegal stuff in the outer rim, who presumably dislikes any form of government or law enforcement, who's cynical about do-gooding, who has no reason to care about galactic history, or any reason to ever have valued the Jedi.

To smugglers, there's not much difference between Jedi and Inquisitors, I mean they both go around slicing off limbs with light sabers. Remember old Obi-Wan cutting off someone's arm in a bar fight?

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

If he's a smuggler he should know a lot more than most people. The underworld Han works with would likely have dealings with both sides of the fence, Inquisitors and Jedi on the run. They could either sell out the Jedi to the Inquisitors or offer them protection from the Inquisitors for the right price. Why WOULDN'T Jabba and other underworld figures have heard of the Sith, Jedi, the Force, etc. and why WOULDN'T Solo have at least heard of it? And if he had heard of these things, why would he assume they were just hocus pocus? I say it doesn't pass the smell test, but others may disagree.

Of course, it might help if we knew how many Jedi were still left, how many Inquisitors there were, how long the Inquisitors operated, and under which authority exactly they operated (military, Vader, or Emperor). Star Wars has been frustratingly vague about this, just as they were about the First Order. We never really got any satisfactory explanations for the First Order or the Knights of Ren, so I have no reason to believe they will try any harder with the Inquisitors this time. We will just be told to consume more Star Wars media that will explain it all (which will likely create as many problems as they solve).

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Oh, I'm sure Han has an encyclopedic grasp of the legal and illegal geopolitics of the outer rim, he's a smart guy and needs to know who is running what, how dangerous they are, and how they deal with smuggling. Anything that affects his livelihood he'd know all about, but really, how could the Inquisotors affect his interests? They aren't going after smugglers or other low-level criminals! I also think Han wouldn't sell a Jedi to them, because he has a streak of decency, and there are probably too few of them to be of financial interest anyway.

As for the inquisitors, betcha we learn more about them. I also bet they make 3rd Sister a target, and she has to team up with Kenorbi.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

The problem isn't just that there are Inquisitors, it is where, when they and how they are doing what they are doing. And it isn't just a question of Han personally. The Inquisitors (and by extension the reality of the Force, Jedi and Sith) OUGHT TO BE much more widely known by many more people than was previously indicated. Oughtn't they? Han seems as likely a person as any to be MORE not LESS aware of this, but regardless, let's assume Han is a moron. The larger point is that it should have been more widely known among the populace in general in earlier version of Star Wars. I'm just using Han as an example to drive the point home. The same is true of pretty much all residents of Tatooine and the galaxy in general. We have to assume that the Inquisitors are drawing as much attention to themselves in MANY places, not just Tatooine. Assuming Disney is particularly concerned with this sorts of matters., which they don't appear to be.

I will say again this is the responsibility of the new content, not the older content.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Oh, I'm sure there were plenty of people in the Galaxy who believed in the Force at that time, and who knew that the Jedi had been capable of wondrous things before they were exterminated. And I'm also sure that the Cantina in Mos Eisley was the last place in the galaxy you'd find any believers!

And we have no idea how many people in the galaxy know about the Inquisitors, because the only people we've seen have been the yokels in a jerkwater town on Tattooine, and a couple of people around the Jedi Trap. And if you're doing to turn this into another tiresome anti-Disney rant I'm going to stop talking to you, Not because I'm a Disney fan or anything, but because that kind of ranting is just plain tiresome.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

No one is ranting here that I'm aware of. I've helped put a stop to the "Woke" back and forth nonsense (for the time being) so that's already a step in the right direction. Now, THAT was tiresome. Anyway, I haven't decided whether I like this show yet or not. If I enjoy it I will probably just mostly ignore any minor doubts. I don't know yet what Reva's deal is or how the Inquisitors will end up. Though I do feel these are legitimate concerns if Chow pulls a J.J. and leaves them unaddressed.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

I haven't made up my mind about the show, I hope it turns out to be more "Mandalorian" than "Boba Fett"!

And FYI if you're going to start complaining about wokeness I'm going to stop talking to you. The only think more tiresome than rants about Disney is rants about right-wing politics.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I don't want to talk about wokeness either. It's tiresome. Right or wrong, at least I am discussing the content of the story and not some bullshit political baggage. If Star Wars is "poorly written" as some claim I am a little puzzled why they only notice it when a character is black of female. Shaky writing has been a general and persistent problem in Star Wars for a while. If it's poorly written it shouldn't matter who is onscreen. My concerns are with the Inquisitors in general, not because one of those Inquisitors happens to be a black female. If she wasn't even in the show I would be making the same observations.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

"If Star Wars is "poorly written" as some claim I am a little puzzled why they only notice it when a character is black of female"

Ah, you get it! Some of these assclowns only watch the Disney stuff to find things to complain about, and look who they've picked for their new favorite target!

But as for you going on that we don't know enough about the Inquisitors, dude! We've had two episodes (and the meh "Rebels"), mostly about Obi-Wan himself, because it's his show! How much information to you expect? Do you expect the haunted Obi-Wan to have a long and informative chat with a co-worker about the Inquisitors? Should the GI march into the bar, threaten people, and then take a moment to chat about his organizational structure and how his work is being received by the public? No, if you want exposition you have to give time, because I really think we're going to be seeing a lot of them, and find out how much terror they've really spread, as Obi-Wan runs for it. Betcha the Inquisitors come to Alderaan, and we hear them discussed at a high governmental level.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

You can't blame me for being cynical about Disney Star Wars not explaining things and leaving it that way. For instance, I'm still waiting for the explanation why Maz Kanata has Luke's lightsaber, how did Palpatine came back... need I continue?. The jury is still out on whether Rogue One was just a fluke or not, and Mandalorian needs to prove that it can stick the landing. I haven't even mentioned the nagging question of Leia not seeming to remember being rescued by a Jedi who just happens to be called "Ben" at age ten. I hope they aren't digging a hole for themselves that can't get out of in the allotted time of the series. Again, recent Disney history does not inspire. My confidences isn't all that high. Maybe they'll surprise me.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

OMG, dude, how exposition-heavy do you want your filmed entertainment to be?

Movies aren't books, they can only include so much backstopry and exposition before they start to drag.

reply

[–] Martoto (4178) 2 years ago

He never said that he never heard of the Force. He said that so called Jedi powers were "simple tricks and nonsense". In this show they give us a fake Jedi using simple tricks and spouting nonsense to trick a mother and child.

Capisce?

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

If Han personally didn't know Jedi and the Force were real, that's one thing - although there is nothing in that dialog that conclusively proves that he HAD ever heard of the Jedi before either. But I don't care about that. This is mainly a critique of this current series and the sequels to a lesser extent. The sequel trilogy indicates Rey has only heard scraps and fragments of the history of the Jedi. OK, so she lives on Jakku. However the sequel trilogy at least strongly implies these things were still regarded as legendary by most of society. Given what they are showing us now in the Kenobi series (if the Sith Inquisitors are behaving as we are seeing), it makes it extremely unlikely that the Jedi could be as mythical as they are being portrayed. I am willing to give ANH a pass but I am less inclined to do so for the sequel trilogy. I guess people on Tatooine don't gossip, have short memories, and Han is lacking in curiosity about this big war that's going on. But alright.

The chronology and logic of the series has become so convoluted as to almost be nonsensical at this point, and the mental gymnastic required to make it all work I find rather amusing. The more detail they add and the more they try and fix and reconcile anything the more convoluted it becomes, not less. This might still turn out to be a reasonably entertaining show, but it's nothing more than bubblegum escapism and I just can't take it seriously anymore.

reply

[–] Martoto (4178) 2 years ago

I think you are way over thinking this. The Jedi hadn't been a significant force in the galaxy for fifty years when Rey said she thought they were just a myth.

Tell someone younger than twenty today that the Internet as we know is only slightly older than they are and that life went on without it beforehand, and they will often struggle to believe and comprehend it.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

That's maybe true of people born after the creation of the internet (or the Empire). What about the people who were alive during the Republic, the Clone Wars, and the Inquisitors? This is only 10 years before A New Hope. And after the Republic was re-established, why wouldn't they make an effort to erase the legacy of the Empire? Why would no one be curious about what life was like before this? This wouldn't apply to Han Solo or anyone else his age anyway. This is more like the Berlin Wall coming down than the internet. It's a major political an social upheaval. It doesn't address the question of why no one remembers the Inquisitors (who are corrupt Jedi) going even to remote corners of the galaxy looking for... Jedi. But no one remembers what a Jedi is? No, this dog won't hunt... sorry.

Look on the bright side, though, at least we aren't debating about Reva and "wokeism".

reply

[–] Martoto (4178) 2 years ago

Yeah I was referring to Rey. Solo heard the stories when he was growing up and, without experiencing them first hand, believed they were nonsense. It doesn't sound incredible to me.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

That worked before the Inquisitors were introduced. However, if we accept this new series though I find that way too many people (on Tatooine in particular) are aware of the Inquisitors for this series to be credible or consistent with older films. Is it possible Han some how wasn't aware of this stuff going in Mos Eisley just a few years earlier? Sure, it just isn't very likely. To be clear it's the newer stuff that has to justify this, it's not the OT's fault.

reply

[–] Martoto (4178) 2 years ago

I don't think the Inquisitors change that. People often believe what they want to and ignore evidence that suggests they might be wrong.

reply

[–] millsey72 (9568) 2 years ago

There is an all too obvious answer here. The OT was written by George Lucas. He never wrote or envisioned anything about any Sith Inquisitors. Heck the word sith is never even mentioned in the OT. So now we get to this series. Did you know that this is not written by George Lucas. This series was made by Disney and it was them who created the whole sith Inquisitors plot. So there was no way in A New Hope, that Lucas had any way of knowing about this plot that Disney created. Does this help?

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I was aware of that, yes. So, in conclusion, Star Wars is now (continuity wise) a mess, but a mess that has been building for decades. The more layers the add and the more cooks are in the kitchen the worse it will get.

reply

[–] millsey72 (9568) 2 years ago

Just sit back and enjoy the Obi Wan series and try not to think too much about A New Hope

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I'll try to enjoy it. I didn't care about Revan and "the chase" that most people seem to be complaining about. However I wasn't really blown away by it either so far either.

reply

[–] millsey72 (9568) 2 years ago

I haven't seen it. I refuse to give a company like Disney one cent of my money. Freaking woke bastards they are

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I've seen it, but I'm not paying for it. Someone is sharing their Disney Plus with me, so the money is already spent and it was someone else's.

reply

[–] AP (5258) 2 years ago

In A New Hope, Han knew about the Jedi and the Force. He just didn’t believe in it initially. That’s been a pretty odd situation since the prequels considering Chewbacca fought alongside Yoda in Episode III.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

There are so many things that just keep piling up and piling up. "MORE STAR WARS! MORE STAR WARS!". Now we've got ore Star Wars. This is the upshot.

reply

[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

It boggles my mind when people like you ask questions like this, This is an "Obi Wan" (the show) problem, not A New Hope problem. Obi Wan is a prequel created years after the original and created the problem; in this case the Inquisitors. How do you not get this?

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

I completely get it. I never said it was A New Hope problem. When did I say that? It is A New Hope problem though, in the sense that later iterations of Star Wars and confusing younger viewers and tarnishing the legacy of the Lucas era (the OT mostly). Han Solo's comments in A New Hope don't need to be justified. However, in order to show that Obi-Wan is not being consistent in how the Force and Jedi (and how they were perceived by the denizens of this fictional world), I need to use the OT to make the point. How else can I do that? I do think Lucas isn't completely blameless (prequels and Clone Wars), but in the Disney Era continuity (the question of the Force and Jedi, specifically) has gone completely off the rails.

reply

[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

You literally asked "How can Han Solo not have heard of Jedi and the Force..."

And you're right LUCAS started this crap. Creates a stupid fucking rule that we all know never existed, then allows writers of books and cartoons to piss all over it and create these secret apprentices. "They're not Sith, it doesn't count!" Disney is just working with what Lucas created.

It's annoying we reached a point where the "expanded universe" has taken over the "discussion". There have always been expanded universe type stuff, but now it dominates the conversation. It's at the forefront instead of the movies now. It's primarily what people talk about. And frankly, that's the opposite of how it should be. I read some of the comics and have watched all the live action shows, but when they contradict a movie, that's a problem to me, and even though they are "canon" the movies still trump everything imo. Anakin never had an apprentice, Han never heard of Jedi or the Force because there WEREN'T Inquisitors running around, etc., etc., etc.

reply

[–] christomacin (4529) 2 years ago

"How can he not have heard of the force..." (if the way the Inquisitors are being depicted in this new series and their activities on Tatoooine is to be accepted as consistent."

I had assumed it would clear what my meaning (the parenthetical part) was. My criticism being directed this Obi-Wan series was implied... perhaps not strongly enough, but that was the intent. If I meant that I would have posted this on the Star Wars (77) board... I didn't do that for a reason. Anyway, I apologize for the misunderstanding. Obviously, how could Star Wars (77) be to blame? It had no responsibility to anything other than itself, being the first film and an unknown quantity. The onus is on later films to be consistent to it, not the other way around. The prequels put us in a somewhat awkward situation, because they take place beforehand but were made (by the man himself) afterwards. There might be a few such issues with the OT as well, but nothing too serious, and I can't really think of anything off hand. I'm saying they have gotten worse since the prequels but now the problem is so acute it really is getting hard to take it seriously anymore (the new ones, I mean).

As a matter of fact, I am going to start referring to "A New Hope" as "Star Wars (77)" from now on. I really am getting rather annoyed by post-'83 Star Wars. It's more headache inducing than anything else.

reply