I like the show but episode three was misconceived. In a single sex species, concept of male and female are meaningless. Basically there is no such thing. If a child is born incapable of reproduction, it isn't "female," it's sterile. A surgery that corrects sterility isn't a sex change and this wasn't social commentary it was a display of ignorance.
shareThere a forced same sex species. I really don't care, it was a good episode.
share"There a forced same sex species."
No, they weren't repressing females, they are all female and they are all males. In a single sex species, every individual would be both male and female, and probably capable of reproducing with or without a mate.
We really don't have enough information to understand what male and female mean in that species.
By the way, The Orville may be a deeper show than it appears. An interesting clue is given by the pointed reference to Kermit the Frog at the start of the episode. When there are too few of one gender in a pond, frogs are capable of having some of them changing their gender to equalize things.
Actually we do. Single sex species are not an alien concept, they exist on Earth. Species like frogs or fish that change sex, are not single sex species. Species with a single sex are hermaphrodites and have both male and female sex organs.
The Mochlan are not described as male or female based on biology. The larger, dominant, and fertile Mochlan are designated male. The smaller, passive, infertile Mochlan are designated female. But that is sexist. There are Earth species where the female is larger and dominant, and species where males carry the offspring.
There might still be more information about them we don't know though. Personally I hope they return to the planet and delve into it more. I suspect females are being born a lot more often than they let on. We already know of three -- maybe there are a lot more.
shareYeah our science education is worse than I imagined.
shareWe really don't have enough information to understand what male and female mean in that species.
Well said.
shareI had the feeling that when the baby was handed to them at the end after the operation, that they had chosen not to (or had pretended to) modify her into a male and had somehow got it past the officials, hoping for change in their society. But I guess the reveal of the female writer started something there.
shareThat would be a Star Trek ending the Ending we got was a Macfarlane.
shareThe Moclan are not a single sex species. There are clearly two genders, male and female. Their difference from humans is that female births are extremely rare. Another difference is that two males can come together to create a baby. Bortus and Klyden were both the biological parents.
It's likely that females can reproduce since Klyden was born female and became a parent.
The baby's surgery was gender reassignment/sex change, not anything to do with sterility.
Obviously, there is a population of very hidden and oppressed females on Moclan. It should be interesting if they revisit the topic.
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You are failing to understand the meaning of single sex. The writers used female to describe a mutation that results in a slighter, more passive, sterile offspring; but that isn't female.
shareMoclans look like lizards and lizards do lay eggs. That has nothing to do with humans.
The Moclans are extremely bigoted against females so they use terms like 'deformity' and "mutation" to describe them. That doesn't mean that's what females are in reality. We may also learn more about a society that lacks female influence which is interesting.
"The writers sure wrote some weird a$$ species."
I thought the writers were very clever and original. They have a same sex couple that isn't gay.
Good point, they aren't gay. If that is important to you.
shareThe Mochlan are single sex, they tell you this. Do you know anything about reproduction, in a scientific sense?
You're trying to make sense of poor writing.
"Do you know anything about reproduction"
I doubt if any human knows about Moclan reproduction except the writers since the planet doesn't really exist except in their imaginations. I'm still trying to wrap my head around their urinating only once per year.
I believe you're missing the point. You're not differentiating between the bigoted comments from the Moclans and what the writers are trying to say.
The episode isn't about a "single gender" alien species. It's about bigotry. They refuse to acknowledge females as anything but a mutation and are hostile towards any who are born. It's like the Chechnyan leader who says there are no gays in his country:
During 60 Minutes interview, "Chechnya's leader sharply derided gays during a TV interview, asserting that there are none in his Russian republic and saying they should be removed from the region if there are."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/17/europe/russia-chechnya-gays/index.html
They're not single sex when there are females being born - though rarely. Obviously their births are much more common than once every 75 years. But because of bigotry, the Moclans change the females who are born into males or they hide them. I'm going to gamble that this theme will be revisited in the future. Perhaps a movement of female Moclans coming out and wanting rights.
No, you're missing my point. I know what the writers wanted to do, but their ignorance and laziness created a broken metaphor that expressed their own prejudice. The writers characterize strength, fertility, and assertiveness as "male"; and characterize passiveness, smaller size, and sterility as "female." You're making the same mistake as everyone else, adding things like Mochlans being bigots, or having 2 sexes, or the females being fertile, that directly conflict with what they tell you (and no one contests) in the episode.
As for what we can or cannot know about their reproduction ... sexual and asexual reproduction; two sex, single sex, and no sex (gender) reproduction are all known and studied here on Earth. No need to go to fictional planets. Additionally evolution tells us that many species independently develop similar mechanisms because they work best. There is nothing "alien" about single sex species, hermaphrodites, with both male and female reproductive capability. (not the same thing as species that change sex) A sterile hermaphrodite is not "female" and a fertile hermaphrodite is not "male." And in the episode, they clearly state the Mochlan are single sex species and that "females" are sterile.
How can females be sterile when Klyden who was born female just had a baby with his husband?
I don't recall anyone saying the females were sterile. No male would want to mate with her considering how hated they are. Not the same thing. The doctor said she wouldn't perform the surgery on a HEALTHY baby female.
"The writers characterize strength, fertility, and assertiveness as "male"; and characterize passiveness, smaller size, and sterility as "female."
I had the impression it was the Moclans themselves who were stereotyping the two genders. The males have a hatred against females in the extreme which is why they go into hiding or their parents secretly change their gender. That is bigotry.
In the first episode, they identified as being a single gender species and were male. But, in the third episode we find out that's not true because their child is a female and there are two others on the show. They also said one female is born every 75 years - again not true. There is misinformation and prejudice when there is bigotry. Bortus is like a Moclan Archie Bunker.
In human species, female births are roughly 50% of births. What if Moclan female births are 5% of births? Rare for humans, but much more common than Moclans are aware of because it's so taboo and rarely spoken about?
I thought the writers were being ambitious because it seems they are dealing with multiple subjects. Same sex couples, transgender, sexism, gender stereotypes, conformity, being closeted, government making medical decisions for the parents.
BTW, ST:The Next Generation did an episode in which inhabitants on a planet were genderless. One person felt like it was born with a gender which was considered abnormal.
You're being disingenuous. I assume you understand the Mochlan are not real and everything they say comes from a script so why are you arguing as if they have any feelings or thoughts.
You want this to be social commentary but it isn't because the metaphor is broken. That's the problem with using metaphors and analogies, if you don't get them right then you send the wrong message or no message.
The whole point of fiction is to create illusion that seems real. That's why people cry during sad movies and jump during scary ones.
The metaphor isn't broken. You are confused because you can't follow the story. You are assuming everything that the Moclans are saying about females is true. Perhaps it's too subtle for you, but the Moclans' beliefs about females are heavily influenced by their bigotry.
The writers are doing something similar to what was done on "All in the Family." Archie Bunker would say a stupid and bigoted stereotype like, "All Jews are rich." That wasn't reality, just Bunker's bigoted viewpoint. The truth about females on Moclas is revealed so the viewer can see the contradictions like a birth not really happening only once every 75 years.
Great science-fiction is not about space aliens. It's really commentary about what is happening within human society.
None of the Humans contested that Moclans are a single sex species. The only definitions they used for Moclan "gender" were size, fertility, voice, and behavior (dominance); but as I've explained a number of times, that isn't how gender is defined. No matter how badly you want it to be social commentary, the only thing it tells me is that the writers weren't awake during basic biology.
shareCaptain Mercer referred to the child as having a vagina. “Having a vagina doesn’t give you a lisp. I mean, depending on how you use it.”
shareSo what? Did you stop to consider why an egg laying species would have a vagina? What would they do with it? Especially an egg laying species where the egg is fertilized outside the body, like a salmon?
share"Did you stop to consider why an egg laying species would have a vagina? What would they do with it?"
Your parents never had that discussion with you, did they?
Turtles lay eggs. Males have penises and females have vaginas like all vertebrates.
You're a little too into the Moclans' sex life. Discussion getting bizarre.
Well I suppose you got me with the turtle but they engage in intercourse, the Moclans fertilize the egg outside the body like salmon so what would a salmon do with a vagina? But whether they have a vagina is neither here nor there, they are hermaphrodites and have both male and female sex organs which is why calling one male or female is nonsensical.
There is nothing bizarre about reproduction. I'm just humoring myself and hoping you might pick up a little bit of education.
admit it keelai, you just love to let those people dig their own holes. xD
shareI didn't dig a hole, that turtles have vaginas is irrelevant. I'm still right about everything else and Keelai is still wrong about everything else. If you have something constructive to add and aren't afraid of being wrong, jump in.
shareyou are in good hands. i don't think you can embarrass yourself even more with an additional person.
sharePassive aggressiveness much?
share therefdotcom your not advancing the argument. you have said nothing other then "shame on you your wrong" with out any context or description as to what you think McQualude is wrong about. Do you at least acknowledge how the concept of male/female sexual reproduction doesn't apply to the Moclans and that the shows attempts to depict an all male species(Incorrectly I might add) is just a contrived effort at social commentary which the show failed to actually do?
The show just needs to try harder with their social commentary. It would also be nice if the show displayed both sides of the commentary and not just assume people on the other side would be easily be persuaded by strawman analogies(very weak ones at that), the show seems to keep making these assumptions.
hahaha. clap ... clap ... clap. always a delight.
shareR.I.P.
shareR.I.P.
How's China? Or are you still in the core?
It's a shame really, up until your "friend" got involved you were giving honest debate which I respected. You were wrong, misguided, lacking education, but at least honest in your responses. Then suddenly... reduced to trolling. So disappointing. But, on the bright side you helped make people aware of the issue so small pat on the back for that.
shareIt's pointless to continue a debate when you are either pretending to lack the intellect or actually don't have the intellect to understand a basic TV show plot.
Your first post "...If a child is born incapable of reproduction, it isn't "female, it's sterile...." is inane since the episode was called "It's About a Girl".
Perhaps the brainless drivel that is Star Trek:Discovery with its mindless combat will be more to your liking.
I was trying to educate but unfortunately your cup is full. If you feel the discussion is pointless, drop out. You choose to participate and keep the discussion going (which is fine with me).
shareYeah, it was a very confusing, convoluted, nonsensical SJW-episode to say GIRL POWER without saying it out loud, and saying 'men are selfish, bad creatures' and 'sex change operations are real' and all that stuff the lunatics of hollyweird want to hear.
I wrote about it already in other threads, though, but geez, what a HORRIBLE episode, it was the worst thing I have seen for a long time. I mean, why is there 'female', if they can reproduce without genders (or with only one, which means it's not really a gender)?
What is 'female' for, if not for reproduction? Why is there 'male', if masculinity is the only thing - what is the masculinity for? Wouldn't it then be more like '50-50 male and female', or more likely 'human' (well, extra-terrestrial humans that look different to us are still humans)?
The episode doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but I am sure the 'gay, lesbian, bisexual, body-mutilated, 'gender identity politics' and other weirdo' crowd loved it.
Sadly the writing hasn't improved in that respect, they are still using broken metaphors. It's weird they spend millions of dollars per episode and have created an interesting show and yet the writing is juvenile.
share