Saw it, liked it but... - Avengers: Infinity War (2018) Discussion

It is crap film please don't watch instead watch teen titans go in july or bvs in dvd please

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I don't follow your logic. In what way was Infinity War a "buildup film?" Because it had a dark ending? Because you know another film is coming next year that will continue the story? There was nothing about the film that requires an additional film, and it works on every level as a standalone film. Moreover, absolutely none of the previous 18 films can be described as anything other than standalone, complete films. The fact that they tie in to one another, and tell stories that happen in one universe in no way means that they are merely building up to a future film, or require a viewer to have seen a previous film.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

Dark ending has nothing to do with it. Nothing gets resolved really that is how many MCU films are. Civil War fell into this trap big time. Also nothing about the film that requires addition? We must not have seen the same film.

Everyone disappearing, the blatantly obvious tease at Captian Marvel, the fact that you know most those deaths are not going to stick. Come on you really think Black Panther, and Spider-man area dead?

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

You're putting too much of the outside, real world into your viewing of the film. That we know there will be another Spider-Man movie doesn't affect the film in question. It's like saying that since you know there will always be another James Bond film, that the story never really ends at the end of a film. Infinity War, like each previous Marvel film, is a complete, stand-alone film that works on its own without relying on the audience needing to see the "next" film to "get it."

To put it another way-- if Marvel was not making *any* future films at all, and stated beforehand that "this is it, this is how we end the MCU," not a single detail or aspect of Infinity War would have needed alteration. The same goes for Civil War, or any of the MCU films. Compare that to, say, Matrix 2, or Back to the Future 2, or either of the first two Star Wars prequels, all of which are incomplete films that require a "next" film to complete the story.

You're letting the facts that you know about the cinematic real world cloud your interpretation and viewing of the film itself.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

What this "trap" you're talking about?? Aren't all these movies supposed to be part of the same universe, the whole reason for calling them the MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE? It was intended to have each movie build to the next one. That's not a "trap" if it's by design. You're not making sense.

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[–] Renovatio (2990) 6 years ago

It's just another episode in the soap opera... Finally people are realising this... the viewers who like the soap opera love this, the ones who prefer movies don't...

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

The viewers who can understand that a complete story can also build to a new story enjoy the films. The viewers who need something simple that requires no thought get a little confused by the films.

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[–] Renovatio (2990) 6 years ago

hahaha... You put a smile on my face 😁

I have to give you credit for trying to portray Marvel series as the thinking man's cinema, especially when the OP contrasts it to Blade Runner 2049... well played 😘

Seriously though, I really do think that the serialised nature of this kind of storytelling, whether Marvel, Throne Games or similar, does rely too much on cliffhangers, secondary character arcs and special character appearances and crazy turns of events to keep things interesting as the series itself has little to say and is more concerned with perpetuating itself than meaning something. This is a soap opera model, but with more attempts at humour than melodrama.

Even the Snyder superman films and the Nolan Batman films suffer from this, although it is much more clearly felt in those movies that they are attempting to mean something. In Marvel and Transformers there isn't even this attempt.

This is just an observation. I am non-hater. I have enjoyed a marvel movie (the first iron man one) as I have enjoyed parts of transformers, but I can recognise where they lacking... I think their serialised nature is a big reason for this.

An ending, even an ambigious and open-ended one, gives a story a conclusion and it can start to have meaning... Otherwise, it's just rambling on...

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

Blade Runner 2049 is a completely different sort of film, and his comparison seemed rather out of place. If I write that my favorite film is Seven Samurai, then proceed to lambast Citizen Kane for its lack of warring Samurai, am I really offering a valid critique of Citizen Kane?

What has made the Marvel films so successful, and so globally appreciated, has been a dry, intellectual wit combined with a stories that are self-contained, yet build upon one another. Someone who had never seen a Marvel film could watch Infinity War without any explanation or introduction, and fully "get" the movie. Someone who'd seen the previous films would find greater nuance, as would someone who watches, say, Godfather 2 after having seen the original.

Your pairing of the Marvel films with Transformers is even more incongruous than the original poster's choice of Blade Runner. What possible commonalities do you see between those films?

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[–] Renovatio (2990) 6 years ago

Transformers is Marvel but with more visual style, better humour and less melodrama, but they are more similar than they are different. In particular the Avengers style, superheroes-alltogether series of marvel movies... it is difficult to know what scene is from which movie, they all blend into one another...

The only major difference is that you have half a dozen origin story marvel movies, but they're are very similar to one another...

The one that stands out, to some extent, is the Superman one, but that is DC/Snyder... and has Kevin Cosner elevating the movie single handedly with his performance, bringing it to a human scale and imparting a sense of moral consequence... it's like he was in a different movie altogether... He's so good, but he is both a star and an actor...

The analogy to The Godfather doesn't hold, but is instructive. The Godfather is two parts/a trilogy because it has both an intergenerational aspect (Michael is contrasted with Vito) and a journey through time for the family (and Michael), as well as the much maligned thrid part which is a conclusion to both aspects (the attempted transition to respectibility for the family and Michael).

So the three movies tell the story of the Corleone family's journey from the old world to the new, not just geographically but also through time as the old world ways of Vito give way to Michael's mix of antiquity and the modern American way, culminating in the tragic face off betwen his daughter's American generation with their family heritage. All the time the America around them is changing as well. The three part movie also tell the story of michael from idialistic but niave war hero to pragmatist gangster to an old man searching for legacy.

There is nothing with Marvel's structure that mirror's the narrative or, more importantly, the meaning of the movies... it's just a series, with origin stories and interlinking Avengers Alltogether movies, the meaning of which is to simply perpetuate itself.

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

I realize now that there's no real point to our discussing this. That you can't tell the difference between a Marvel film and a Transformers film, and think that Costner lent anything other than heavy-handed maudlin schmaltz to the Superman film, tells me that you have a radically different way of looking at film than I do. You don't think very deeply about film.

Or, more likely, you're a fan of DC comics bitter about Marvel's success. I note you made a point to tell us you're "not a hater." Why add that? I don't feel a need to remind everyone I'm "not a hater," or that "I don't read superhero comics." That odd inclusion, combined with your blindness to the flaws of the DC films and your inability to recognize the quality of Marvel's is all very telling.

Yes, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but yours is vapid. You're arguing that the Beatles never reached the heights attained by Britney Spears. Maybe you really believe that, but it certainly sounds like you're in bitter denial.

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[–] Renovatio (2990) 6 years ago

I think you're overreacting, as most do whenever I criticise a very popular movie soon after it's release. I'll let your personal criticisms slide. That is the reason for my 'non-hater' comment.

For the record, I think DC is also trash for the most part and suffers from similar flaws as marvel, including Snyder's Superman series and Nolan's Batman series, as well as Star Wars... They all suffer from the soap opera effect and the never ending serialised nature of both comic books and TV shows... This is a symptom in our "it's just 'content'" culture, that ignores form, aesthetics and meaning... the building blocks that a filmmaker artist uses to communicate their sensibility to us...

The Snyder/Nolan attempts to reach for some meaning and the Cosner comment was a minor exception in the barren wasteland that is the contemporary CGI blockbuster... Even the Ape Planet movies devolved into nothingness, for the most part... Yes, the graphics were phenomenal, but the whole prequel trilogy is meaningless compared to the single shot of Charlton Heston on the beach shouting to the heavans in dispair at humanity's folly... Now more studios are releasing meaningless CGI monkey movies (Kong, Rampage), etc... to much success because they realise that the audience is so debased from appreciating what the earlier Planet of the Apes movie "meant".

I don't want to repeat myself as i've already discussed the flaws of serialised spectacles (StarWars, DC/Marvel, Ape movies, CGI-verses, Transformers, etc.). You're welcome to read my earlier posts on this topic in their respective boards for more detail per movie.

But more importantly I hope that you check out the threads that I started on all of the other, non-serialised-spectacle movies, to see that I do appreciate cinema and as a 'film buff', I would welcome discussing those movies with you further. I think we'd enjoy it rather than arguing blockbusters in circles 👍

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

I take it back-- maybe you aren't a bitter DC fan, but we certainly disagree when it comes to the Marvel films. I see them as exceptions to the bulk of CGI-laden blockbusters in that they are cleverly written, and employ a sly wit. At times I feel like I'm watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail with a $100 million budget, especially in the case of Thor:Ragnarok or the Guardians of the Galaxy films. Spider-Man:Homecoming struck me as the closest thing we'll ever get to a Wes Anderson superhero film, and overall-- the films are written to appeal to intellectuals first, and fans second, and I appreciate that.

On the other hand, I saw the first Transformers film and had no desire to see any future films in the franchise. I haven't seen any of the new Planet of the Apes films, but enjoyed the original when I saw it decades ago, despite its flaws. I don't see very many of the blockbusters anymore, but the MCU films are an exception, as they never disappoint me. The only other exception that comes to mind is The Force Awakens, which felt like a worthy successor to the original three Star Wars films, unlike the other five, which run the gamut from unwatchable to barely tolerable.

I spend most of my film-watching energy watching pre-Star Wars era films, pre-code Hollywood, screwball comedies of the '40s, early Busby Berkeley, before he directed his own movies, silent films, Buster Keaton, Preston Sturges, Kurosawa, Howard Hawks, John Ford, Tarantino, Coen Bros, Wes Anderson. And the MCU. So yeah.

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[–] Renovatio (2990) 6 years ago

I get the appeal of Marvel, but it's not for me. I can watch them and have seen most of them (at least half), but no more than a couple stand out for me (e.g. 1st Iron Man, Winter Soldier). Although they do tend to disappoint far less than most other blockbusters...

I think the last two Ape Planet movies (Dawn & War) have incredible visuals and it's worth checking out one of them for that alone (or just high quality trailers). The Transformer movies are just variations on the first one... I liked one of the StarWars movies when i saw them as a kid (the space fights), but could never get into the story otherwise. I agree that The Force Awakens is the superior of the additional ones...

But most of the current blockbusters are underwhelming to me. I find I prefer the genre movies these days at cinema. Even though they are smaller than they were in the past. Apart from exceptions like Nolan's films that have scale...

I'm making my way through Hitchcock's filmography and have a few other blurays (20+) to check out including Moonrise Kingdom, which is one of the few Wes Anderson movies I haven't seen. Darjeeling Limited being my favourite of his so far.

I try to watch a lot of new movies in cinema, but I don't watch TV (rarely shows, or sports) so manage to see a lot of movies I missed later at home.

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[–] DracTarashV2 (4480) 6 years ago

^Such a shallow and pretentious statement, though typical for Reno the guy with apparent superior taste in real cinema and loves to deem himself too grown up for CBM’s.

Anyway OP, if this is the way you view things, I have to say I certainly don’t. If every MCU film minus BP feels like it’s another build up film with no merit on its own, then I don’t see how Black Panther doesn’t count. Post-credits scene aside, to me it’s obvious BP ends feeling like it is the first installment of a future series. I mean despite the appearances of previous MCU characters, I don’t see how entries like Ant-Man & Spiderman: Homecoming are any less standalone than BP.

In regards to IW, ignoring those “rumors” that Avengers 4 will be telling a different story from IW altogether, fact is it’s been known and accepted for quite some time that Infinity War and its sequel were going to connect to the previous movies while at the same time they were build up to be something bigger than previously ever seen. I’m positive for years most fans of this franchise expected a build up to the beginning of the end, especially for the original Avengers. Oh, blatant character teases and so on? Well, most of the old Avengers are going away and new heroes will be taking their place. And yes, you can expect these fresher faces to face threat after threat in multiple films. Besides, LIKE the comics, the MCU has always let viewers know they’re in for a long - potential endless - journey. If that doesn’t work for you, then you’re viewing this cinematic universe the wrong way. When all is said and done, a great film is what counts for me.

And for the record, while BP is great:

CA: First Avenger
Ant-Man
Doctor Strange
Iron Man 3
Age of Ultron
Thor
Spiderman: Homecoming
>>>>>Black Panther

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

First of all none of those films you listed are better than Black Panther. I could understand some of them but age of Ultron and Ant-Man over Black Panther? Seriously? I personally disagree and many others do as well. On Rottentomatoes and Metacritic Black Panther destroys any movie you put on that list. Should that sway your view no but it proves that you're in the minority in feeling that way.

Age of Ultron, Ant-Man and Thor were average at best. Age of Ultron was a complete disappointment next to Avengers, Thor was a cheese fest full of forced unfunny jokes, it's only saving grace was Loki, and Ant-Man was literally a beat for beat remake of Iron Man. No thanks I will take Black Panther over that all day everyday.

Black Panther can end and be perfectly fine. Infinity war needs a sequel. So many things are left unresolved. Aside from disliking all the buildup you went over my other point. The artistic value is nothing special. Seriously there are many other films that beat it down to the dirt.

Blade Runner 2049 had stunning cinematography that was revolutionary. Nothing in an MCU film is anything above good. Films like Terminator 2 that revolutionize special effects are what I live for.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Avengers: Infinity War, CA: Civil War, CA: Winter Soldier, the first Avengers and the first Iron Man are certainly all better movies than Black Panther.

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[–] FilmBuff (6854) 6 years ago

I agree. Black Panther was really good, but not among Marvel's best. I tend to group them rather than rank them, because it's often hard to definitively say "this film is better than that." Black Panther is definitely in my third tier.

Tied for the best:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Avengers: Infinity War

Also excellent:

The Avengers
Thor: Ragnarok
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: Civil War
Ant-Man

Really, really good

Black Panther
Iron Man
Iron Man 2
Thor
Doctor Strange

Good but not great, all re-watchable

Avengers: Age of Ultron
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
Captain America: The First Avenger
The Incredible Hulk
Thor: The Dark World
Iron Man 3

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[–] AP (5261) 6 years ago

I think almost all the movies are stand alone. Sure, some of them name drop Infinity Stones or Avengers Initiative, but the vast majority of the scenes that build to other movies occur in the closing credits so they do not break up the narrative flow. Black Panther is no more or less a standalone movie than Iron Man, Thor, Incredible Hulk, Ant-Man, Captain America The First Avenger, etc. Those were all solo movies and the first of their series. Additionally, Iron Man 3, Civil War, and Ragnarok brought very concise ends to their trilogies even if their characters went on to pop up in Avengers sequels. Certainly, you need to have a good understanding of the MCU to enjoy Infinity War and likely Avengers 4 but it is meant to bring an end to what came before it, so that makes sense.

Age of Ultron and Iron Man 2 both had the habit of trying to do too much in terms of world building, as there was a ton of set-ups within the movies that grounded things to a halt. Otherwise, if a person just wants to watch, say, the Ant-Man movies, they won't lose much.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

The fact that you say Black Panther is your favorite MCU movie says it all. Your opinion is irrelevant after that

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

You like a movie that I don't therefore now your opinion is irrelevant. How old are you? Actually after a comment like that I know your credibility is shot.

Disliking Black Panther is fine it is your opinion I can't take that away from you. Thing is people like you are not content with that though. The minute someone likes something you don't you try to discredit their view.

You like Deadpool 2, I thought it was lame. Thing is I am not going to say your opinion is irrelevant simply because we disagree on that. Do a bit of growing up then maybe we can have an actual discussion. Have a good day.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

I never said I disliked Black Panther, read what I wrote before getting indignant, but anyone who overlooks the higher quality of many other Marvel movies has clearly bought the "social importance" hype around BP, and are elevating it on that basis. Movies aren't completely subjective, despite what people say. There are many tangible elements to a movie, including writing, originality,score, direction,acting,etc, that's how they have winners and losers at awards shows...and no true unbiased fan of film would say that this is the best movie Marvel has produced so far. My statement was on point, if you thought this was the best ,you must be basing that on factors beyond the quality of the movie, therefore you are are poor judgement of the medium. Was that adult enough for you?

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

He said favorite and you altered your argument to "best," sounds like you have an anti Black Panther bias at play.

Nothing adult in your post.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

Do you often like movies more than other movies you think are better? Give me a break with your symantec bullshit.

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 6 years ago

You had me at symantec :)

No, I actually agree with you that Black Panther is objectively and obviously NOT the best MCU movie ever. That's just biased.

But man, Symantec is the software company behind the Norton Antivirus...

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

It popped up in auto spell,and had me convinced I was spelling it wrong. I questioned why it had the capital S,and I edited it to lower case,but I guess I shouldn't have second guessed my first try,lol.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

Um okay lets go over your post again shall we.

The fact that you say Black Panther is your favorite MCU movie says it all. Your opinion is irrelevant after that

If that is not an ignorant comment then what is? That is basically saying that you have no right to think differently.

Second you never bothered to ask why it is my favorite, you wrote my opinion off right off the bat. For the record even though Black Panther is my favorite MCU movie does not mean I think it is a flawless film. Had you bothered asking why it is my favorite I would gladly elaborate. Even though I liked Black Panther a lot I do have some issues with it. Just because I love a film does not mean I am blind to it's faults.

I agree there are those elements in measuring a film. Also no your statement was not on point. You do realize Black Panther is the highest rated MCU movie critically correct? Check the Average score on RT and Metacritic. Only MCU films that come anywhere close is, Guardians of the Galaxy, Iron Man, The Avengers, Captain America Winter Soldier, Civil War and Infinity War. Even with all those Black Panther still beats all of them.

I did not say it was an objective fact it was the best I said in my opinion Black Panther is the best. Not once did I say anyone had to agree.

I can already tell that here is what will come from you next. Oh the critics were paid off to give Black Panther a high score.

In conclusion no it is not adult, the reason being is because you stood by your asinine statement.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

Critics were the worst,and not because they were paid. You just made my point for me. I actually saw reviews that openly gave this high regard for "how important" it was. That is not a critique of a movies quality,and just them sucking up to a social movement. Ever wonder why there is such a difference in the critics rating to the IMDB rating, which are just movie fans with no agenda? Fyi, BP is ranked 9th in the MCU on IMDB, so that says something too.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

Fans do not have agendas on imdb? You know how many people boost a films rating on that site?

Remember when critics got slammed for being MCU fanbots for giving Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad bad reviews? Remember how a petition got started to ban rottentomatoes because they did not like that they gave those movies a bad score? Because you know any DC movie is bound to get bad critical scores because it does not have the MCU logo on it. Oh wait the entire Dark Knight trilogy was loved critically so there goes that theory.

It couldn't be that they just did not like Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad it was because there was a conspiracy.

If you want to go the imdb route then no MCU film comes close to The Dark Knight. No MCU film ever stays on the top 250 long. To say critics can have an agenda but fans on imdb don't is ignorant.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

The bias is balanced on IMDB. Score loading is from both sides,and I'm not so sure Nolands Batman trilogy doesn't belong above marvel. Everyone thought BvS and suicide squad was shit, not just critics,what are you even talking about? And "petitions were started"???? That's an argument,lol? Get your shit together if your going to come at me. At this point,you sound like a child.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

No I would not say that imdb is balanced. Rottentomatoes and Metacritic at least have user scores. Therefore you get a taste of what regular people think and what the critics think. Case in point Star Wars the Last Jedi. Critics loved that film but fans did not like it. Look at the user score on rottentomatoes. On imdb it only has users no critics at all.

It is Nolan's not Noland's. Second I actually think his movies are better than MCU films. I agree with the rating there but I do not say anyone has to think Nolan's are superior by default even though I think so.

Um I am not making this up. I will give you multiple sources proving this.

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/suicide-squad-fans-petition-rotten-tomatoes-bad-reviews-shut-down-1201829631/

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/suicide-squad-fans-petition-to-shut-down-rotten-tomatoes-following-bad-reviews-a7169446.html

https://www.digitaltrends.com/movies/rotten-tomatoes-petition-suicide-squad-change-org/

You get your act together. I proved that your comment was asinine. Why does someone need your stamp of approval in order to consider Black Panther the best in the MCU? You realize that it is possible to like the film other than for the social movement correct? I personally do not care about that I examine a movie for what it is.

Even when people state that Black Panther is the first black comic book character to get his own solo film I quickly correct them and say no he was not. Blade came in 1998.

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[–] Burk48917 (11116) 6 years ago

My son's name is Noland,so because of my frequent use, autocorrect made the change. I trust IMDb much more than any critic based rating, but only once a movie has been out long enough to get a large voting pool to avarage out the undeniable fanboy/ haters scores. I wasn't suggesting that petitions aren't real, but they are meaningless. Anyone can start one,they don't have any substance.

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[–] moviefanatic505 (6028) 6 years ago

Well that is where we differ. I trust a critic's rating before I trust imdb's rating. Am I saying I always agree with critics? Nope but I put more stock in them.

Many films I have seen I would have never known about had it not been for critics on Rottentomatoes. I do not trust imdb because lesser known films get the shaft.

Films which are rather original get completely ignored.

Nightcrawler
District 9
Birdman
Before Midnight
Fruitvale Station
Winter's Bone
Fantastic Mr Fox

And many others are not on the top 250. Those films in my book are far better than Infinity War and yet that movie is on the top 250.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

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[–] TandyMan (10661) 6 years ago

I already haven't bothered to watch this movie. Cause I have no interest in watching another build up half story. If they don't stick the landing hard with the next one, and I mean close all the open plot ends in the series so far, I won't be watching a single new MCU movie moving forward. I'm sick of these trailers masquerading as movies. I'll buy into a ten year slow burn. I'm cool with that. But if there's no reward, no conclusion, if it's all tease, i'm out. This world lately can't let go of things that make money. But the creative side of things, the clever and brilliant and satisfying bit, is thrown into a volcano because of it. The epic poem has to f'n end, and end well. And until Disney proves they can do that, i'm out.

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[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Umm... Black Panther most definitely was a "build up" flim, as it had a post credit scene that was yet a link to the next movie. I don't follow your logic either but it's your logic, so have at it.

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