I'm sorry, what? - Hawkeye (2021) Discussion

[–] fc31 (4573) 2 years ago

He does talk like one.

He was that good with fencing, for most people they would have won countless trophies, Kate would have found out right away. Also as someone from the same circle she would have known him. So He did not participate tournaments and probably not even private matches with fencing champions, not even to prove himself. That takes incredible restraint and discipline.

Then he walked around carrying a sword like a buffoon, showing what he has been hiding all these years for no reason in the finale. That just doesn't make sense.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Don't get me wrong, he was an excellent bad guy... until he wasn't one. The way he speaks, shows little regard for things like intruders and being arrested, he is practically twirling his mustache. He goes to black market auctions and walks around with a sword for fuck's sake. They made the guy a villain and then were like, "Nope, not a villain." Great show aside from that, but that "twist" wasn't a twist, it was a full-blown 180.

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[–] fc31 (4573) 2 years ago

Great show aside from that

Not just that, not just Jack.

Kingpin, Eleanor and even Kazi all could have been great villains, only if they have taken the time to develop them. Disney apparently has no patience for that. They just want to give Kate Bishop and Maya an introduction, introduce Kate to the future team mate Yelena, short and sweet, since they are unlikely to be profitable on big screens or too long for it, so they do a mini series. In the end all three need to be ready for the new avenger assembly. Ready for the movies since that is where the money is.

Kingpin dead, Kazi dead, Eleanor neatly tucked away in prison for probably the rest of her life, so she is gone too. They can't leave them hanging, fans would demand a ending for their stories, and they have no plan to use them further.

Jack? They don't know what to do with Jack. So OK, Kate has one on one with Kingpin, Clint has one on one with Yelena, they can't take Jack, so let's put him aside for this one. Since this is finale they can't just ignore him so let him be the stupid bystander. He is a nobody, that is your ending.

I don't think these people love the story or the characters, they are just a bunch of bean counters.

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[–] alienzen (1929) 2 years ago

With 100 million subscribers they are raking in about a billion a month from Disney+, which is many times what they gross from movies, so I don't know why you think Theatres are where the money is. I think they basically want to keep these stories open ended so that other writers who come along later can basically do what they want. It would get impossible to manage if you have 4 movies and TV series every year and all of the stories have to sync with each other.

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[–] fc31 (4573) 2 years ago

Disney+ profit is from the entire Disney collection, not from a single show. On per show basis Marvel movies are a lot more profitable.

And it really the Marvel movies bringing in the subscribers, not these TV shows.

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[–] JakeSWITCH (504) 2 years ago

He was a red herring.

Just the fact that he’s playing Swordsman, a criminal who is part of Hawkeye’s comic book origin story, is supposed to lead us to believe that he’s the bad guy here, too.

Unfortunately, it was blindingly obvious to anyone over 15 years old that Eleanor was the villain from the outset, just like it supposed to be a twist that Mysterio was a baddie in ‘Spider-Man: Far From Home’.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

He's not though (a red herring). I know they think he is, but a red herring simply misdirects. It implies something we later find out isn't true, but Jack is actually a criminal. He was at the black market auction and it was discovered he was the owner of a shell company that laundered money for the Bros: https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Sloan_Limited.

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[–] Costumer (1789) 2 years ago

In the comics Jack (Swordsman) was a conflicted character who walked both sides of the law. I imagine they were setting him up for a similar role in future series. (Swordsman was, for a time, an Avenger)

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

That's all well and good, but it's stated in the show he is involved with the Tracksuit Mafia. The Tracksuit Mafia works for Kingpin. Eleanor works for Kingpin. But Jack and Eleanor aren't aware they each work for Kingpin? That's not a red herring - there's legitimate proof he's a criminal.

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[–] Costumer (1789) 2 years ago

As I said, Swordsman walked both sides of the line. He was a criminal. He was also a hero. People are complicated.

As for Jack and Eleanor not knowing the other works for Kingpin, why do you think that is strange? Kingpin runs a massive criminal empire. If you worked for a company with hundreds, if not thousands, of employees spread across different offices and divisions, would you know all of them? Would you even know all the prominent members thereof?

I was a manager (not store manager) of a store which had about 100 locations. I knew the managers of only three other stores by sight. I knew about a dozen corporate employees and about half a dozen employees of our distribution center.

If I were a store manager I would undoubtedly know more; but not everyone. Whatever part of Kingpin's organization Jack worked in, he wouldn't necessarily know about Eleanor. Especially if Kingpin didn't want him to know.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Are you kidding me with this shit? There's no excusing this. Jack owns a shell company that launders money for the Tracksuits; who work for Kingpin. He IS a villain. Eleanor works for Kingpin. They LIVE TOGETHER and don't know?

And then he proceeds to fight the guys he was laundering money for because????

Stop. It.

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[–] Costumer (1789) 2 years ago

Stop what? Commenting on Swordsman role in the original comics? Speculating on how that may be reflected or adapted in this and future shows in the MCU? Observing that Jack and Eleanor need not know the other worked for Kingpin.

It is irrelevant that they live together. To the public they make their money is some legitimate way. It seems that Eleanor may know, since Kingpin had her frame Jack for the murder. That doesn't mean Jack knows.

Sorry. I will comment on whatever I please, as often as I please, and however I please. You, of course, have the same right to do all these things.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

It's not irrelevant, you clown, they literally work for the same fucking guy. The big bad of the show. Kingpin. A very well-known villain in pop culture. But Eleanor is a villain and Jack isn't? Gget the fuck out of here with that. That's not a red herring, it's bad writing.

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[–] Costumer (1789) 2 years ago

You do not read very well. I worked for the same guy as six thousand other people. About three hundred of them were prominent people in the company. I didn't know most of them and if you mentioned their names wouldn't recognize them. The reverse was also true. I'm sorry you see real world realities as bad writing.

Pejoratives are unnecessary to make your point and are generally a mark of bad writing unless quoting a character.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Jack and Eleanor are both criminals - who work for the same man, no less - and live together, but sure. Great comparison. Really rop-notch.

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[–] Costumer (1789) 2 years ago

You are purposely obtuse. I'm sorry you can't see this. Others don't seem to have this problem. Your on your own in this. I can't cure intentional bafflement.

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[–] naDaht (1087) 2 years ago

He's maybe a criminal, but in the world of MCU that doesn't make him a villain.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

How is Eleanor a villain and Jack isn't, when they are both employed by Kinpin?

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[–] naDaht (1087) 2 years ago

I wouldn't call Eleanor a villain either. A criminal at most.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Now she's not a villain, LOL. *Facepalm*

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[–] naDaht (1087) 2 years ago

You see, all criminals aren't villains. And not all villains are even criminal.

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[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

This. If he's a criminal, that doesn't make him Kate's antagonist.

He's not a great guy and she was right to be leery of getting him as a stepfather, but by the final episode they had common enemies and were fighting on the same side, and I don't have a problem with that. The Marvel films have always had ambiguous characters who aren't good guys but who can be antagonists or allies... like Loki, or Yondu and his Ravagers.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Who are the common enemies? Sloane Limited - Jack's shell company - launders money for The Tracksuits.

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[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

At that point, their main common enemy is Eleanor.

You know, Jack and Eleanor really were perfect for each other, being amoral rich bastards, it's a pity for them that they couldn't work it out! (But a win for Kate.)

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Their common villain was Eleanor? Jack was fighting the Tracksuits not Eleanor.

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[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Yeah, but the fact that they'd both been betrayed by Eleanor made him Kate's ally. Temporary ally.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

Jack is fighting the Tracksuits. They work for Kingpin.

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[–] AP (5258) 2 years ago

I got the impression the money laundering was being done by Eleanore and Kazi without him knowing about it. The last episode said that she framed Jack for everything.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

I know she framed him for the murder, but yea. I guess she just go with that.

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[–] AP (5258) 2 years ago

She can’t frame him for multiple crimes?

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

It' stated he owns the shell company. I don't recall it being stated that was untrue. That is my point.

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[–] acidraindrop (3055) 2 years ago

The only thing that stated that were Eleanor's company's files.

At his arrest, he claimed that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. The arrest was for specifically the murder, so he didn't explicitly deny owning the shell company.

Technically he could be the owner of the shell company, but I thought the implication was that all of that was just made up. He's just rich (and occasionally pops up with rich/elite black market auctions because he's obsessed with swords).

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[–] AP (5258) 2 years ago

Owning the company and being involved in laundering are two different things.

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[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

It's a shell company. It only exists to do illegal things: like launder money. If he owns that, he sure as fuck knows what is going on. If he doesn't and she framed him fine, but the show doesn't state that. It only states he was framed for murder AND he was at a black market auction. It's not unfair to say it's a little unclear.

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[–] acidraindrop (3055) 2 years ago

I actually thought that too. I thought he was just a cartoonishly sinister looking man with very good sword skills who just happened to be Eleanor's fall guy.

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[–] VinceD (6581) 2 years ago

This is what I thought as well; that Eleanore framed him for Murder and owning the Shell Company.

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