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How is Johnny as equally skilled as Daniel??

posted 4 years ago by Threadkiller (2954)
28 replies | jump to latest

The show seems to imply that Daniel & Johnny are evenly skilled/matched which I find really confusing considering they were both evenly matched at the end of the first Karate Kid movie. Daniel should be much more skilled and experienced by this point as much as the opposite should be true for Johnny. It's suggested that Daniel on one hand, has been training for years, if not decades ever since but with Johnny on the other hand, the show suggests that he has had little to no involvement with Karate since quitting Cobra Kai after the first movie. He just seems to pick it back up on the fly & is somehow miraculously just as skilled as he was before if not more so, like riding a bike. Based on the information we're given it seems Daniels' skills have inexplicably stagnated while Johnn's have even more inexplicably improved.

I imagine this is just one of those things that the audience is expected to simply not think too much about and just go with it. Granted I've only watched the first season so maybe this is explained in the second one.

[–] millsey72 (9579) 4 years ago

The bigger problem was in the original film. Johnny was a 2 time defending karate champion. Daniel begins his training after the beginning of the school year, which typically starts in Sept. The tournament was in Dec of that same year and Daniel is able to win, despite Johnny and every other participant have been training significantly longer. Makes no sense

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

While not super realistic it still doesn't require nearly the amount of suspension of disbelief as the issue of Johnny & Daniel's current skill levels.

It's pretty straightforward in original Karate Kid that we're meant to conclude that Daniel's relatively quick and dramatic increase in fighting skill is a testament to Mr. Miyagi's training.

[–] FilmBuff (6692) 4 years ago

I strongly disagree. The idea that a small kid who has never had any training whatsoever could, after about 3 months of training by painting and waxing a car, win a karate tournament against larger, stronger kids who had been training for at least two years required massive suspension of disbelief. That's an underdog movie staple, so we all accepted it, but it really made no sense when you thought about it.

In Cobra Kai, there's no need to spell out that Johnny has stayed somewhat in shape, and done at least some half-assed karate exercising through his adult life. We're shown it to be the case. When he got into the fight outside the store, I think i was, we see him use his karate. The audience doesn't need a flashback to him keeping fit. He used some karate, obviously he's kept up with it to some extent. The implication is clear: Johnny has clearly been staying fit, probably via karate exercises, and has been likely been getting into fights his entire adult life. Daniel, on the other hand, seems to have been doing more of a tai chi type of thing, and likely not been in a fight since he was a teenager, so it makes sense that they'd be about on par in their 50s.

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

The idea that Johnny has kept with his martial arts training all these years would require the audience to assume this without even the slightest passing reference that Johnny has kept up with his martial arts training. In fact his wincing in pain when throwing a kick, as if he hadn't done it in ages, along with his surprised "I guess I still got it" reaction after defeating the teenage punks directly works against the idea that he had been maintaining his skills. Never mind flashbacks. There was never even a throwaway line to explain this.

[–] FilmBuff (6692) 4 years ago

I took the fact that he could still manage to perform in a fight as evidence that he'd kept in shape over the years. That, and the fact that he wasn't shown to have lost it and need to regain his skills. Also, karate strikes me as something one more or less retains in terms of how to do it, if not the full ability to actually do it. I used to box, and while I know if I jumped in a ring now I'd be slow and wouldn't hit as hard, I still know *what* to do. It would take some conditioning and work to get faster and stronger, but I wouldn't need to go back and relearn the footwork or how to punch, guard, etc. Basketball, too. I used to play all the time, and now that I'm older I don't. When I do go play, I still have the correct form, and my shot is straight, but I can't shoot from as far out as I used to. A free throw feels like a three-pointer. Defense and dribbling, same thing-- I know exactly what to do, I'm just slower doing it. That's what I see them showing in Johnny. He still knows how to use karate, but needs to get back into shape.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 4 years ago

All good points!! Personally, I find it obvious Johnny has kept in reasonable shape or at-least has the talent/genetics to easily retain his fitness levels. It seemed as though he hadn't preformed Karate specific moves in a long time hence the pulling of a muscle during his first kick. However, as Filmbuff stated he retained all the knowledge and just needed to knock the rust off.

At the end of the day Daniel may be more knowledgeable from working with Mr M. for years but Johnny is far bigger and stronger. So I would say they even out.

Can't wait for Silver and Barnes to come back!

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

It keeps coming back to having to "assume" that Johnny has somewhat kept himself in martial arts shape despite the show never even suggesting it with so much as a throwaway line. I played basketball & football in high school and I was very good at both but even though I think i've retained "some" degree of muscle memory and techniques, I would not be able to compete anywhere near the level I did while in high school the way Johnny does and I'm still in decent shape at 30, much less Johnny's 50+ years old. The fact that Johnny seems to be at the very least just as capable of a fighter as he was in Karate Kid is bad enough but what really stretches suspension of disbelief is the fact we must conclude that he's inexplicably an even MORE skilled & capable fighter than he was then. He would have to be in order to be on par with Daniel which he consistently portrayed as being, if not more capable.

[–] strntz (10846) 4 years ago

Here's what I think the difference is (and I know little to nothing about Martial arts, so take this for what it's worth).

I've always played sports, and at 62, still play competitive industrial league softball and sub in an over 40 hardball league. At 62, I'm in excellent shape but don't have nearly the range or speed I did when I was 18.

My understanding of Martial arts is that it's as much or more about technique as it is about speed and power, which is why Miyagi was (supposedly) a far superior fighter to Johnny, Kreese, the rest of the Cobras, and Silver despite being much older. While Miyagi may have kept up his moves, when was the last time he fought anyone before the Cobras?

While the speed and power diminishes in any human, technique decays at a far slower rate. Go to a local muni and watch the old duffers kick the crap out of young golfers who are blasting the ball 300 yards. Golf is as much technique and game management as athleticism, but there's no way a group of us hardball players over 50 could compete with a good high school team.

Lastly, was it ever said that Johnny quit karate the day Kreese tried to choke him out? I saw the first series only once and don't recall that Johnny ever quit, only that he quit Cobrakai.

[–] millsey72 (9579) 4 years ago

It wasn't even 3 months of training in the original movie. The tournament was on Dec 19th. Posters have confirmed this date. Miyagi didn't get involved in Daniels training till after the big Halloween beat down when they chased Daniel down. So that implies that Daniel didn't begin any training till Nov. So he had roughly 6 weeks of training. Johnny on the other hand was already the defending champion. Daniel had by far the least amount of training when he entered the tournament

[–] strntz (10846) 4 years ago

The tournament was in Dec of that same year and Daniel is able to win, despite Johnny and every other participant have been training significantly longer. Makes no sense

Daniel didn't really beat Johnny in a fight, he beat him in a tournament. He fought a mostly defensive fight in order to score points. I don't think any fan of the movie would believe that Daniel would have beaten Johnny or most of the other Cobras outside in the parking lot. Outside, there's no refs to stop the fight when a single point is scored, or to ensure that "control" is employed. Rocky beating Apollo Creed was a bigger stretch.

[–] CoachGainz (453) 4 years ago

Agree with you points! But I would say Rocky only won cause he caught Creed off guard with the lefty switch. Creed was clearly winning the majority of the rounds and would have gotten the decision again.

[–] strntz (10846) 4 years ago

Training is one thing, fighting is another.

Daniel may have been training, but training isn't the same as fighting a real fight. Also consider that Johnny seemed stronger and more athletic.

Johnny had been training since he was probably a kid, so he was well skilled by the time he first met Daniel. Even if his training after high school was reduced, he still would have been a dangerous match.

Also, I don't recall any dialog that mentioned Johnny abandoning karate after his loss to Daniel, only his separation from Kreese.

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

If you trained in martial arts from 12 to 17 years old then basically give it up until you're 50, realistically you're not going to retain those skills. It's strongly implied that Johnny had given up training in martial arts for years & no suggestion that he continued training at all past the first movie. Frankly I wish they did actually explain that Johnny kept training for it to make more sense.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 4 years ago

Actually yes you would retain those skills, just not your fitness in general or your flexibility,as is shown when Johnny strains himself kicking in the first episode.

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

If someone was a skilled high school basketball star but quit then gave it up after graduating, those skills would largely gone by the time you're 50 & certainly wouldn't be able to basically pick up where you left off.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 4 years ago

He doesn't pick up where he left off. He no longer competes, he teaches.
Can you still remember how to ride a bike? I hadn't rode one for 26 years until the other day. Guess what? I can still ride a bike. Could I compete in the Tour De France? No, I'm not as fit as those guys.
Karate isn't just about fitness, it's about knowledge. Years of repetitive training would have sunk in and stayed there.

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

It's not like riding a bike. As I said it's more akin to a skilled high school basketball star who quits competing & train his basketball skills until he's 50 but still somehow retains those skills which simply isn't going to happen.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 4 years ago

Except it is like riding a bike. Trust me I know.

[–] liscarkat (16552) 3 years ago

Martial arts and ballet dancing are similar in that they require fitness, strength, flexibility, balance, and coordination far beyond anything the average person can do. They also both require years of serious, dedicated training. I trained to be a ballet dancer in my teens and reached a professional level of skill in my twenties. I completely stopped training and dancing in my mid twenties. By the time I was in my fifties I was still physically fit, and I still had all of the knowledge of ballet technique that I had learned decades before, but I no longer had the great flexibility, balance, and coordination that I had in my twenties when I was training daily. There is no possible way I could have participated in a ballet class or performance and even come close to resembling the highly-trained dancer I once had been. I am certain the same thing would be true for anyone who had been highly trained in karate in their teens and twenties, but had not trained at all for twenty or thirty years. Since Johnny was still good at karate, there is no doubt he had maintained his training to some degree over the years. It is not necessary for us to see him doing it.

[–] IMDBrefugee (435) 4 years ago

I got the impression that they both more or less stopped practicing diligently. Johnny perhaps after KK 1 or 2 and Daniel after 3.

Then there is just how much of what you learn just kind of "sticks", so even though it's been several years you never forget the fundamentals. Johnny just mixes that with being "badass" and wha-la. Daniel probably practiced alongside Same about 5 or so years prior so he's maybe slightly less rusty.

The last thing I assume is that they get practice in off screen. I know most of the time Johnny is slacking when he's got free time, but we do see him trying to get back into shape in some montages and Daniel moreso doing meditation.

[–] Ripkens25 (1903) 4 years ago

There's quite a bit of muscle memory when it comes to martial arts. The example of Mr. Miyagi remembering how to do karate even after all those years is a perfect example.

[–] redban (5215) 4 years ago

The movie said that Daniel had not been training for about 8 years. Remember how the dojo room was a mess before he cleaned it up? It shows that he didn’t keep up with it

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

You mean TV show? In any case a middle aged man who trained since high school up until his 40s should still have a significant edge over a guy who possibly hadn't been training since High School.

[–] AbercrombieJolen (70) 4 years ago

Why do people think Johnny never continued training after Cobra Kai? He told Kreese that he didn't teach him everything he knows before they fought. Johnny is 50ish now. He probably trained another decade or 2 after high school. He is about equally matched with Kreese as well as Daniel

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

It repeatedly boils down having to make assumptions/theorizing to make sense of Johnny's skill level & that's my issue. The narrative easily could have easily given some passing suggestions about Johny continuing to train on his own for years but oddly it doesn't.

[–] Batty67 (358) 4 years ago

Good discussion here and below. Johnny is clearly in shape, and in Season 2 he is noticeably buffer, Daniel also is in good shape. Daniel trained his daughter and refers to training accomplishments in his 20s. So we can presume he's stayed up with his karate for much of his adult life. It is less clear with Johnny in terms of telling statements and reveals, but I think it is safe to say he probably fought a lot of actual fights over the decades given his temperment and training.

I did medieval-based fighting for 25 years. Have not for a decade. But when I pick up the weapons or watch a fight, I know what to do...but the issue is whether I can execute it given lack of conidition. 25 years of training and muscle memory comes back fast, provided the body is in sufficient health and condition to knock layer upon layer of rust off. As another person stated, the speed (twitch reflexes) and power may be long gone, but the instincts and training are still imprinted.

[–] Threadkiller (2954) 4 years ago

Johnny still retaining some of his karate muscle memory from his high school years is certainly plausible but not the to the degree that is depicted. He seems implied to be not only just as good as he was before but even better. William Zakba looks to still be in good shape for his age but that's more a reflection of him & quite frankly unrealistic for a 50 year old Johnny who has been portrayed as a down and out, beer guzzling borderline alcoholic, who regularly drinks himself stupid yet is inexplicably unaffected by it physically/health wise. Not even a hint of a beer gut.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

I didn't go through this entire thread so this might be a repeat of stuff.

I didn't get the impression that Daniel had been training for all those decades in the interim. Doesn't he make a comment about getting back into it in the first episode? He tries to find a training partner in his kids and some work mates but doesn't have much luck initially. So that sez that he hasn't done it consistently through the years.

More importantly he tells the kid later on that his training consists of kata. Traditional kata is great for physical and mental conditioning, but it does nothing for teaching you how to fight an opponent in the real world. It's based on highly stylized movements which are closer to dance than real combat. It's the "art" part of martial arts.

In fact, it usually teaches you bad habits... I once used a kata technique to stop a purse snatcher. It was pure instinct on my part based on my training. People later told me it looked awesome but, in my heart, I knew it was it was just dumb luck that the guy I kicked didn't trip me up. Shortly after I quit karate to train in boxing and CQB which are closer to real world fighting.

(Sidebar: Some modern fighting styles do have "kata" as well, but they are based on effective body mechanics designed to teach muscle memory. And they are just a backup to actual fight training.)

So, if Daniel's training consisted solely of kata, and Johnny's consisted mostly of the occasional bar fight or street scuffle combined with maybe some bag work in a gym, I'd say Johnny would actually be the "better" fighter based on real world experience.

I'm not fixated on whether or not it's mentioned explicitly in the script. There's enough info that it's implied.