without any training she lifting a frikin mountain in the end. how does last jedi lovers justifies it? im tired of ugly marry sues and feminism everywhere. im sick of it
shareOkay then explain to us how up until this one Luke isn't a male Mary Sue?
In a new hope he is farm boy. Sure he boasts about being able to fly but Biggs and Wedge went to the academy to hone their skills, Han years in a cock pit. Luke within two minutes of being with the rebels is given a X wing and is allowed to go on a mission and is the best X wing pilot everrrrrr.
Sure he's had the trip to the death star with obi wan but that ain't long. His time with Yoda training about few weeks to a month tops considering Leia and Hans timeline in empire and suddenly he's a Jedi. Obi wan and anakin were children when they started training and not made full Jedi's until they were fully grown.
Luke starts as a grown up has less than a semesters training runs off and starts calling himself a jedi before he goes back to finish his training.
He talks to Darth Vader and gets him to turn by basically saying 'yeah you're my dad'
So tell me if Rey is a Mary Sue how isn't Luke? And don't go skywalker bloodline as people should then shut up about the Mary Poppins moment (which personally I think was stupid)
So, where’s the Mary Sue brigade with their counter-argument? *crickets*
This is spot on, and cleanly destroys the Mary Sue argument. If Rey can be argued to be a Mary Sue, then Luke can be argued to be a Marty Stu by the same logic.
Oh definitely, but we won't hear from them. Why because Luke comes with attachments and Rey, well Rey's got cohooties obviously lol.
But when you think about things, Luke is more a Marty Stu than Rey is a Mary Sue.
At least her ability to fight with stick weapons can be explained as she would have to have learned to fight on Jakku or she would be someone's slave at best or dead at worse. And I'm not talking about a fetch a broom and clean up type of slave either considering Jakku isn't set up like the casino with choirs she could do. She would have to be proficient to survive. It isn't much but it does explain why she maybe able to wield a light sabre better than Finn.
Luke, gets a couple of lessons with a light sabre with Obi Wan and Yoda is then semi proficient enough to take on Vader at end of Empire? It isn't like he's had to fight to stay alive or exploited every day of his life up until that point. Unless we are going to suddenly get a back story where we find out that Uncle Owen had a dark side.
Hell both Luke and Rey pull a deux ex machina in this film with her and her timing in the Falcon and him and his vision. Both things that aren't explained in the terms of timing. Though do l like that in Luke's vision he projected himself with a cut and dye job.
Gary Stu's have been a staple of movies for decades, but no one has cared.
The only reason Rey has gotten attacked like this is because Max Landis gave a bunch of MAGA types a term that they feel "justifies" them in attacking a female.
(Max Landis is also an extremely misogynistic sexual predator, by the way. That's who the Mary Sue crowd worships, knowingly or not.)
They can't explain it, they don't even understand it. All they care about is that someone on a public forum gave them a license to criticize, and that their fantasies of a world controlled solely by white males is being exposed as false.
Then of course you get a bunch of trolls who pick it up and run with it, who run with everything right-wing, racist, anti-feminist, etc.
Just look at the OP: One post in his history. It's probably a sock created by one of the trolls here. Suddenly there have been quite a few BRAND NEW MOVIECHAT ACCOUNTS showing up to back them up, you notice that?
Trolls love making socks and fake accounts.
Brings a whole new meaning to this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3biZkA-TNvs
BLA BLA BLA WHITE MALES ARE MYSOGINISTIC IM A CRY BABY. JUST BECAUSE LUKE WAS A GARY STU 40 YEARS AGO ITS STILL DOSENT JUSTIFY RAY BEING A MARRY SUE TODAY. ITS 2017 ALREADY. FILMS ARE EVOLVED. WE DONT WANT TO SEE STUPID MARRY SUES IN OUR MOVIES WHY DONT YOU GET IT? YOU STILL CANT BRING ANYTHING THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT I SAID. YOU STILL CANT DENY RAY IS A MARRY SUE BECAUSE SHE IS. SHE WAS NOT TRAINED IN THE FORCE FOR EVEN A SECOND YET ABLE TO LIFT MOUNTAINS. YOU CANT DENY IT
shareWell, I'm not on-board with disliking Rey, I think the character is fine, but she is closer to that camp than Luke was.
However...
1. In Star Wars, Luke is shown being trained by Obi-Wan. You're right: a ridiculously short period of time, but trained nevertheless. In the Millennium Falcon, he spars with the practice droid and requires multiple attempts before achieving a small success.
2. Luke spends a lot of Star Wars failing, actually. He loses R2 (a beneficent failure, but a failure, nonetheless), is beaten to unconsciousness by Sand People, would have died in Mos Eisley if Obi-Wan didn't do any amputating, would have blown everybody up in the Falcon without Han making the hyperspeed calculations, etc., etc.
3. Luke's ascension through Force abilities is a lot more gradual. In Star Wars, he goes the whole movie before being able to guide his one-in-a-million shot in the Death Star trench. At the beginning of Empire Strikes back, he can kinda move his lightsabre with deep, deep concentration. Then he almost dies on Hoth (Han saves him). He trains with Yoda, barely moving rocks, failing to pull the X-Wing out of the swamp, and failing hard in The Cave. He can't best Vader because Vader is much, much stronger with the Force.
There are other examples of Luke failing. Contrast this to Rey, who has Luke's Force sensitivity AND Han's piloting skills right from the start of Force Awakens. She can also repair things (Chewie/R2 seemed best at this in the OT). By the end of the first movie, with no mentoring whatsoever, Rey can bend minds ala Obi-Wan. End of Empire Luke didn't seem like he would have been able to move the rocks that Rey did.
Again: I don't have a problem with Rey. But, I think people do because Luke displayed fewer abilities than Rey and at a lower/slower competency. Neither are realistic, both are silly, but Luke had more of a gradient and at least had lip-service training.
Because it was a ridiculously short amount of time when a huge amount of other crap was going on and suddenly after Obi Wan is gone Luke's proficient in hearing the force? He runs round a swamp and he's a Jedi compared to the years of training his more force sensitive dad had to go through. Rey at least they tried the reasoning she has to try and adapt quick because if she doesn't she knows she is basically dead. Crap reason but it is as good as Luke's.
But it isn't simply the force sensitivity that I'm getting at with Luke - it is the fact he is in an x wing at all in New Hope. He is a farm boy with no experience in flying high end fighters in combat situations. But there he is. Even in Independence day Randy Quad's character had combat experience by being a fighter pilot before he was a drunk and a crop duster and he still screwed up with regards to which buttons to push it the piece of tech that was different than what he was use to. But an inexperienced Luke in an Xwing on a dangerous mission isn't a liability because he's...Luke?
Then after he was the great hope for everyone and everyone follows his lead according to the crawl in Empire. Why? Leia had the contacts, Han and Chewie the skills, Wedge the X wing experience, Ackbar the fleet. What leadership experience has Luke got? He maybe force sensitive but he's the farmboy from Tatooine who got a blast in his ass from a practice ball is the New hope which was five minutes before Empire. And that is before he went to see Yoda.
Rey sure her 'gifts' are out there, but nowhere in these two films is she leading a military force. Luke is being Luke and Chewie is half way doing what he was going to do when she yells at him to do stuff. Sure she's tasked in going for Luke but she didn't set out to blow up Star killer base in TFA, or is tasked to save the fleet in TLJ or leading it. But Rey's fixing things makes sense just like her fighting - she's a scavenger so giving over things that work would get her more in rations than giving over broken equipment
But that aside with both being nothing but wish fulfilment characters why is one and not the other getting the bitch slapping? Is it because people are use to male Mary Sue's in big blockbusters and literature. And female ones even ones that fit the story not so much? Are men that insecure?
Luke hearing Obi-Wan has more to do with Obi-Wan than Luke. Luke's arc in Star Wars still sees him fail or need help a lot more than Rey does in The Force Awakens, even with the X-Wing thing (which, I agree, he should not be there).
I also agree that Luke isn't trained long enough to justify his skills, but he is still trained. I think a lot of people don't notice the lack of actual training time because the movie makes a point of showing him get trained. It's movie logic, but that's one reason why people don't gripe about Luke but do gripe about Rey.
The text crawl in Empire doesn't seem to be telling the truth. Luke is never treated as *the* leader in Empire Strikes Back. It says the rebels are led by Luke Skywalker, but I think that was just clumsy writing. Leia's the one doing the briefing during the evacuation while Luke is a component of the AT-AT defense. I'd say Luke isn't leading and the crawl is speaking more about his status as a hero.
I think Rey's abilities to fight, fly, and fix things are all justified by her backstory, but because we don't see her fail as often as Luke did, it is more *apparent* that she's a wish-fulfillment character. Luke is definitely wish-fulfillment, but it's masked more.
Again: I like Rey. I think she's fine. I don't have a problem with her. But I can see why people complain (and I do prefer Luke, possibly for nostalgia).
As to why people complain, well... Most are probably a combination. Misogyny is definitely one reason. A lot of people are grumpy and don't want Star Wars to change; they wouldn't have been happy with any protagonist. Some people just didn't like the character. Just because you and I don't mind Rey doesn't mean somebody else hated her. I'd say most people who don't like the new characters fall into the "grumpy" category.
I think Rey's abilities to fight, fly, and fix things are all justified by her backstory, but because we don't see her fail as often as Luke did, it is more *apparent* that she's a wish-fulfillment character.
the crawl is there, that is the problem and empire is one of Lucas' babies so we can't dismiss it out of hand.
And like you I think that the fighting, fixing and to a tiny bit flying is explained with Rey. Well not so much the flying. Though I think the luck with the Falcon was more to do with her knowing the lay of the land more than the tie fighters in the Force awakens.
What doesn't help is that everyone got such a force boast in these films. Kylo stopping blaster fire mid air and it staying stopped. Leia being Mary Poppins in the vacuum of space, Snoke bridging minds across star systems, Luke astrally projecting himself across star systems. Powers we never saw in any of the other movies. Rey moving a mountain of rock in this film is one of the weaker forms of force usage in the new trilogy.
Though you are right people are grumpy but blind rage seems counter productive when the original trilogy, the thing we all fell in love with was just as guilty about the wish fulfilment tropes.
As far as the crawl goes, I'd put it in a "character error" type of goof-up. Luke clearly isn't leading the rebels despite what it says. It is wrong.
Rey's flying was not a problem for me given her apparent knowledge of speeders and things. She has spent her life cruising around the desert on that hoverbike, so she knows how to drive things. It's not as well-bolstered as her other skills, but it is there.
They did invent cooler force powers for everybody, yes. I think the biggest problem-power, however, actually belongs to Yoda. If, as a force ghost, you can summon atmospheric phenomena like a god, it's amazing Han and Leia were left to take down the shield generator in Return of the Jedi without assistance. Akin to the lightspeed battering ram by Holdo, it raises more questions than it answers (even though those moments were, individually, cool).
I have seen these sorts of things in current sci-fi/action films, such as superhero films. Basically, they make individual scenes or moments as impressive and awe-inspiring as possible and neglect the bigger picture. In Abrams' Star Trek series, one or two torpedoes will devastate a star ship, tearing gaping holes in the hull, creating maximum peril and drama. In the next scene, seven or eight torpedoes won't do half the damage because then the whole ship would explode. So you get Kylo's laser freezing because it's awesome and makes the audience go, "Whoa!", not because the plot needs it or because it is proportional or anything. Nerdwriter talked about this kind of thing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Cy_Qlh7VM
The new films, I think, are more flawed than the old, which were flawed. But, maybe people focus on the new films' flaws more because they've intensified it and that makes these things stand out more...? I'm just spitballing.
I think, you are right. Your spitball isn't out of left field.
They probably felt they had no choice but to up the power levels in the films because well audiences wouldn't be impressed with a wave of the hand and 'these aren't the droids you are looking for'
And really, would we?
I think we've become so use to the deus ex machina aspect of movie characters that subtlety has gone out the window. Because the number of laws of physics haven't simply been broken but chucked out the window and treated like road kill in these two films is scary when it comes to force users. But like you said so has most action heroes and films, now everyone has to up the stakes so people watch films whose budgets could fund a small eastern european nation for a year.
But that upping everyone else I took as an explanation for Rey's force powers. She is the weakest force user there, the least trained even with her really impressive fetes. But that still doesn't mean she isn't punching above her weight when compared to the others with the force.
As for Rey's piloting, I would have been happier if they passed a comment that she used to play on it as a child so that is why she knew the controls. Because that coupled with her knowledge of mechanics and terrain for me would have made it work.
But that to me is the biggest weakness for Rey
So when Im driving a motorbike for decades I will surely instantly drive a truck through some deadly south american mountain road without dying! Absolutely my fault to think diferent ;) .
shareWell if you are in the same universe where people can live all their lives on a backward farm with patched up tech but can get into a state of the art X wing, know combat tactics, how to fly fighter formations while being shot at and understand the coded instructions of a military organisation then have literally just signed up?
Then sure why the hell not.
So Luke wasnt saved by Han and a few other rebels at the Death Star Battle and would have died otherwise? And Luke was almost beaten to death by simple desert planet natives (if he wasnt saved by Obi an) and was strictly forbidden to control the MF back then?
Which movie have I seen back then? Perhaps it was Spaceballs :) .
What I like is how zero people have had this stance on Luke for 40 years, and now 'magically' you have this opinion as soon as TFA is released because it's literally the only defense for the BS that is the rey character - how convenient.
Also like how there is no actual argument from SJW's *against* rey being a Mary Sue - just some convenient smoke & mirrors fact bending to try and generate false equivalence from the OT (after 40 years, as mentioned).
Kind of missed the window I think. Utterly pathetic.
So your argument is people 40 years ago didn't argue endlessly on internet forums that didn't exist about the jumps in logic about Luke?
And because of that it is a false equivalency?
No 40 years ago you would have been just told 'If it is getting to you this much, get over yourself and don't give the film anymore money than you have.'
And the window is open baby, you guys opened it. Not simply about the complaint about Rey but with all the BS about Luke's character in this. He like every other force user in this and TFA are majorly overpowered and have 'huh moments' so all are open for WTF discussions going back over everything.
Don't like it then find something in real life to complain about.
No, over the course of 40 years, not 40 years ago. Plus people have been critiquing SW on the internet for over 20 years, which is plenty enough time for someone to argue the Mary Sue case for Luke, just it's never happened - your point is rendered moot.
Love how there is no case that can deny that rey is a Mary Sue...
I don't think that was the point. The point (as I saw it) was that IF you grant that Rey is a Mary Sue, then you must also grant, by the same logic, that Luke is a Gary Stu. That's all. It's not about confirming or denying whether Rey is a Mary Sue. Either both are a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, or neither are. I've seen some arguments that attempt to show how they are different, but I don't buy them.
I think the reason it's never been raised with regard to Luke before is that there was no Mary Sue character before now to compare and contrast with. Before Rey, the question of Luke being a Gary Stu was literally a non-issue, because it never occured to anyone to consider it. It's only since Rey that the Mary Sue idea in relation to Star Wars has entered the fan consciousness, and therefore why nobody considered it vis a vis Luke before now.
>I've seen some arguments that attempt to show how they are different, but I don't buy them.
That establishes you as an idiot. Luke Skywalker was exactly the opposite of a Mary Sue. An IMDb forum user called Jedan_Archer made an excellent post about this:
Yes these attacks are as clumsy as they are stupid. Luke goes indeed from zero to hero (Hero's journey character). If you really put ANH-Luke and TFA-Rey together, it becomes evident. Most important elements are:(continued below) share
- Rey understands all languages, including Wookie (!) and droid speak (!!) - Luke does not;
- Rey is a formidable fighter beating up thugs and scaring scavengers away from their loot - Luke is not, he is beaten up several times (by the sand people & in the bar) and is in need of protection and help throughout the movie (Han, Obi Wan);
- Rey despite being raised by ruthless scavengers such as Unkar Putt has developed an superhuman morality motivating her to starve rather than to betray a little droid she just met – Luke treats droids like property/slaves;
- Rey immediately is an (untrained) formidable marks man hitting everything at a great distance while running away and shooting a stranger’s gun; Rey can even (incredibly) aim with the turret while she is piloting - Luke cannot, he is an average shot at best missing many shots;
- People and droids follow Rey like puppies, especially BB-8 (who is useless because Rey does all mechanics/engineering and door opening alone) – Luke seems not to have this fascinating effect, his droid R2 tricks him and runs away from him;
- Rey wants to stay home but only leaves for loyalty to her new friends and destiny - Luke wants to leave home, but stays out of weakness and loyalty (Owen/Beru);
- Rey is her own master and independent – Luke is not;
- Rey is an ace climber and spelunker - Luke is not;
Most amazing post ever. Its simply stupid to compare Mary Sue in TFA with Luke. Rey has no purpose at all for the story and became the new Yar Yar. Hated by almost anyone.
share- Rey the scavenger is an incredible ace pilot: Without a copilot or any experience with the ship she masterfully pilots the bulky Falcon through an abandoned destroyer and graveyard under fire outmaneuvering trained combat pilots - Luke does not even understand how the cockpit of the MF works ("what's that flashing?");(continued below) share
- While flying alone, Rey performs incredible stunt piloting moves, including aligning the Falcon in midair so that Finn just has to pull the trigger ("How did you do that? - I don't know – That was some flying – It was PERFECT") - Luke however is mocked, derided and not allowed to pilot, despite being set up as a pilot; and even in empty space in his X-Wing Luke needs constant assistance from R2 and other pilots and Han, who sacrifice themselves for him.
- Rey circumvents the security of Starkiller so that the explosive charges can be placed and the SK base be destroyed - Luke has no such abilities, he needs R2 to get saved from the trash compactor;
- Rey saves herself out of captivity, and only does not flee so that the team can blow up Starkiller, without her they would be lost - Luke plan to save Leia is amateurish and Leia takes over the lead when his poorly thought out plan fails miserably;
- Rey is an incredible mechanic and even a brilliant engineer stunning even Han (“I bypassed the compressor”) - Luke does not show such talents;
- Rey can do advanced Jedi Force tricks without training, like telekinesis, mind tricks, mind reading etc - Luke needs training for very basic Force abilities (knowing when to shoot the torpedo), and only reaches Rey's ability level when he is a trained Jedi;
- Rey beats the main antagonist (Kylo, Master of the Ren) several times with untrained Force and sword skills - Luke does not even come near the main antagonist (Vader), except for being nearly shot down by him and being saved by others;
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- Rey is better with everything and bests everyone at their game (Han, Finn, Kylo, droids etc), even Luke & Poe were partially removed from the script so they cannot steal her spotlight; everybody becomes her cheerleader (Leia, Chewie, Finn etc) - Luke is a whiny, reckless loser at the beginning: Han is cooler, Obi is more powerful, Leia his sister is lightyears ahead of him (Leader, senator), his friends such as Biggs are ahead of him too;share
- Rey is the only hot young girl around with a posh accent - Luke is an average small farmboy, one of many kids, who mostly left him behind already;
- Rey gets a glorification hug for no apparent reason from the VIP Resistance leader (Leia) instead of her old friend Chewie or all the returning heroes who Leia leads - Luke does not get any unwarranted hugs but after he succeeds and after he becomes friends with the huggers (Leia/Han);
- Rey becomes captain of the MF after Han's death, stepping over Chewie who “likes her” and looks at her in an adoring way (like everybody else, the Rebels are even waving her collectively goodbye when she leaves) - Luke does not get any positions and is violently pushed away by Chewie;
- Rey is sent on the most important mission to find Luke, leaving all his friend and family behind her - Luke does not get any solo missions;
- Rey is so important and special that even long lost light sabers and dead VIP masters like Obi Wan and Yoda call out to her - nobody really calls out to Luke;
- Rey is desired by everybody, but she is hard to get: she either friend zones or emasculates the characters who are fascinated by her - Luke does not even get the girl in the end. In the end, Rey gets Han's gun and ship, Luke's light saber and R2-droid, and Chewie as a copilot - and she finds MacGuffin-Luke: she is the SOLE HEIR and SAVIOUR of the SW UNIVERSE - Luke gets a medal, but only next to Han, who already is successfully flirting with Luke's wanna-be girlfriend and sister!
Yes it is moot. That is why we are debating it.
Luke is a Gary Stu as much as Rey is a Mary Sue . Nowt wrong with that, but it is there. Difference one male and pre internet, all the alt right, gamer gate, 3rd wave feminism BS and one female and post all that shit. So guess who crapped on, while the other is too precious to touch in comparison.
And people have mentioned that Luke is a Gary Stu over the years. Just because he hasn't in the circles you move in then that isn't my problem. But back then even though SW was debated the response from most folk was 'you don't like it don't watch, you just don't get it'
And one end note with regard to Rey being a Mary Sue. She fails in this film, which means she fails at being a Mary Sue - she goes after Luke to bring him back. He doesn't get off his backside until Yoda turns up no matter what Rey's pleading was. She leaves Luke to go turn Kylo and she doesn't do it, unlike Luke in Return with Darth. Not having other characters bend to her charms kind of makes her a bad Mary Sue.
Interesting point. So you completely ignored the list thankfully posted by MaximRecoil? That could happen easily cause it is just placed ..... directly above your pointless rant against Star Wars.
BTW You forgot that Mary Sue beat Jake Skywalker at this short fight at the island? I understand that scene absolutely, cause Mary Sue had way more fighting and Jedi training then this newbie Jake Skywalker.
So this thread is hereby closed by sane people.
well you seem interested enough to reply to complain I have ignored what you consider the final word on the subject.
Says something about you doesn't it?
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Rey uses force power without the smallest training. She flies the Millenium Falcon better then Han Solo. Without the smallest knowledge of it within a second! Thats so superstupid as possible. She even pulls the light saber out of the snow without any training. She even almost beats the bad guy (which had years of training) at TFA. This is the most boring and stupid Star Wars Character since Yar Yar! She could only be hated the way she was scripted.
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