MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015) Discussion > Was the Snoke Throne Room Plot Hole ever...

Was the Snoke Throne Room Plot Hole ever addressed?

posted 2 years ago by FootOfDavros (6734)
47 replies | jump to latest

The biggest disaster in this film - the one which really had people talking on its initial release - was the size of Snoke's throne room on the Starkiller base.

Once they did that stuttering flicker and it was revealed that Snoke had in fact just been a hologram the whole time, the question immediately turned to why the hologram had been projected on to this giant chair and in a specifically designed (by the new order's finest architects) oversized room.

It was a real, genuine once in a generation WTF moment as cinema goers had their minds blown in the realisation that there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for the room to be that big! It simply made no sense...

Sometimes they like to retcon excuses for this kind of nonsense in the cartoons or comics or junior fictions which some people over excitedly believe to all be part of the same overarching canon. Therefore I'm wondering if they ever did explain this horrible plot hole?

[–] Quasimodo (16388) 2 years ago

Plot holes are the new easter eggs silly.

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

I guess as far as Disney Star Wars goes that's certainly true...

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

It's because morons like JarJar Abrams and Ruin Johnson think that SPECTACLE is much, much more important than STORY in a Star Wars movie. Hence the bigger and bigger ships and bases, and their sheer number (the Death Star Destroyers in TROS vs the massive good guy fleet that engages them).

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

Thats not a plot hole. Lets not overuse that term on these boards. Snoke ended up being a clone of Palpatine, hence the big room

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

"Snoke ended up being a clone of Palpatine"
No, not at the time TFA was written, that was retconned later with TROS when "Palpatine" returned.

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

Do you really believe that? I think episodes 7 thru 9 were all written beforehand

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

"Do you really believe that? I think episodes 7 thru 9 were all written beforehand"
No, they certainly weren't. To quote Indiana Jones, "I'm making this up as I go!"

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

Well I loved Raiders of the Lost Ark and it didn't bother me one bit that Indiana was making it up as he went. So it doesn't bother me either if Disney made this up as they went along

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

But Lucas planned out his trilogies, even roughly, and even if slight changes had to be made. And it bothers me and most other people that Di$ney didn't have a plan at all, just wanted more and more spondoolicks.

[–] specterkev (115) 2 years ago

you would be wrong.. too many people said the scripts where changing on a daily bases..

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

I do agree that the term "plot hole" is overused on this site. However in this case I think we have a genuine example.

Yes we know Snoke was in fact just a Palpatine clone in the end but that doesn't explain the GIANT sized furniture which was in that room simply for use with a projection...

I saw a description of the meaning of "plot hole" on another thread recently, and although I cannot remember which one nor what it said, this definitely seems to fit the bill in terms of an absence of logic.

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I don't think its a plot hole though. Even if the furniture was normal size, it doesn't alter the plot at all.

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

Yes but that isn't the full requirement for something to be a plot hole.

The definition has the exact wording but it can also include something which has an absence of logic or something like that. And the giant room and furniture simply for a hologram - give Snoke's actual size - is certainly lacking in any logical explanation.

You should see if you can find the definition of a plot hole and you would see exactly why this fits...

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I consider myself an expert in locating plot holes but I think what you are describing is more a error, just not a plot hole. Regardless how big that room is or the furniture, the plot does not change. Nothing contradicts anything.

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

Can you remember any other threads were you discussed plot holes lately?

I'm sure if I could find that definition you would see what I meant. It was quite specific in stating that a plot hole would also fit this criteria in terms of lacking logic...

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I have called out all kinds of plot holes on these boards. And I was never wrong. You can refer to me as the moviechat plot hole finder. Anyways, have a great weekend. I have to join a BLM protest in a bit so I can fight for social causes

[–] PaladinNJ (20311) 2 years ago

Forget trying to reason with him. He wouldn't know what a plot hole was if it was drilled into the center of his head.

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 2 years ago

It's not a plot hole just because it lacks logic. Although in this case there is no lack of logic. But even if it were: it is only if the item in question breaks illogically with the plot that it becomes a plot hole. For example:

The Walking Dead. It is illogical that corpses can be in any way active, lacking blood flow to bring oxygen to the muscles and sensory organs. This is not a plot hole, it's just a factual error. But it's make-believe, so you are expected to suspend disbelief. So long as this remains internally consistent, there is no problem.

However, in the first episodes of season 1, you see zombies using tools, and dead people - with their heads intact - in cars. It is later established that everybody has the virus, and everyone who dies will be reanimated. So that's a plot hole, given the fact that the dead people in the first couple episodes were simply dead people. And it was also later established that the walkers had no ability to use tools. So that's internally inconsistent, established logic is broken, and that's what makes it a plot hole. If something is supposed to be a plot hole simply because of illogical elements, then every sci fi and fantasy movie is 100% plot hole.

[–] Ace_Spade (9358) 2 years ago

That's not a plot hole. Nothing in the plot hinges on it. It doesn't even present a flaw in character logic. It's not a plot hole.

Snoke makes them build a big room so he can project a hologram of himself that's huge because he has an ego problem. That could explain it.

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

I think it's a flaw in the internal logic of the film. The scale makes no sense given Snoke's actual size.

Your second paragraph, although ridiculous (not you btw just its implications) is the only in universe explanation we could really have. But the absence of any scene alluding to that is the specific plot hole I guess.

[–] Ace_Spade (9358) 2 years ago

It's not a flaw in internal logic because it's not contradicting any logic.

Why make a room big? Well, we have lots of precedent in real life for huge rooms. Often sumptuous, unnecessarily big, ostentatious rooms. There's nothing about Starkiller Base that means they can't have such a room. What logic is it contradicting? Just because it doesn't have a direct function doesn't make it illogical (no moreso than throne rooms in real life, for instance).

And, yes, it would be ridiculous for Snoke to want that, but is it unlikely that a megalomaniacal dictator would want to indulge his narcissism? Here's a village Kim Jong-Il built *just* for propaganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijong-dong

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

It's not a flaw in internal logic because it's not contradicting any logic.

I think maybe the issue is best served by looking at an image of the room in question:-

https://www.media.hw-static.com/media/2016/03/star-wars-the-force-awakens-walt-disney-studios-032416.jpg

The scale is just beyond absurd. Yes, it seems crazy but at a push we can accept that he demanded this ridiculous sized room just be constructed for his giant hologram requirements (although we saw he had no such requirements in TLJ when he was happy to make do with a regular projection on to that Star destroyer... But still a different film granted).

To look at the different possibilities of plot holes it is perhaps a good idea to look at the recent Will Smith shenanigans.

Will Smith is seen laughing heartily at Chris Rock's joke. Then it's a case of "Scene Missing". Then Will Smith slapping him on the stage. Now if that was a film we'd say we have a plot hole because there's no logical flow of events in what we saw.

However, say in a parallel universe Will Smith is not laughing and looks very angry at the joke then we see him go up to the stage and slap Chris Rock - who is now wearing a green velvet jacket. Then if that was also a film we'd still have a plot hole.

Not one based on character this time but the internal logic of the film would still be knackered because Chris Rock's jacket had somehow changed color without explanation. This is also a plot hole by definition.

Snoke's giant throne room falls into this second hypothetical Will Smith slap category.

[–] Ace_Spade (9358) 2 years ago

Love the use of the Oscar Slap as explanation tool.

The scene missing thing would be a hiccough. Although... I don't want to get too lost in the metaphor, but hearing the joke, seeing his wife's face, and then seeing the slap is enough that I can put two and two together there, so I wouldn't call that a plot hole, either. I mean, it literally happened; it's not a plot hole.

The second one isn't a plot hole. It's a continuity error. It happens all the time in movies where characters are in different places from one shot to another. Cigarette length seems to yo-yo around. These aren't plot holes, they're just goofs.

Cambridge dictionary has it defined as, "part of the plot (= story) of a film or book that does not fit with other parts of the plot". Maybe we mean different things when we say "plot hole", but for me, "Snoke has a big throne room/hologram" doesn't contradict or discredit anything else in the movie.

I'll use an example from The Last Jedi: they fly off in an escape pod, but nobody from the Empire shoots at them or tracks them through hyperspace. If they can escape in the escape pods, why bother with the whole slow-speed chase?

Contrariwise, we might just as easily ask why the Emperor's hologram in Episode V is so big? Is that a plot hole?

But I'm still not seeing how Snoke having a big throne room creates a gap in logic, motivation, or character.

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I think the Egyptian pyramids are a plot hole. They were way too big for the civilization at the time

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

That's a shame that you descended to nonsense here.

I thought you were decent, considered poster who only made sensible comments but this suggests otherwise.

#disappointed

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I'm sorry but all due respect, the size of the throne room is not a plot hole because it doesn't contradict anything in the plot.

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 2 years ago

because it doesn't contradict anything in the plot.

Or anything else, for that matter.

[–] ProgsReturn (1765) 2 years ago

But the ancient egyptians were giants. That's how they could build such big structures.

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

Or maybe the dinosaurs helped them

[–] ProgsReturn (1765) 2 years ago

Don't be silly. The dinosaurs came much later.

[–] millsey72 (9582) 2 years ago

I thought the Egyptians hunted the dinosaurs down to extinction

[–] ProgsReturn (1765) 2 years ago

Egyptians built the pyramids to stop dinosaurs walking on their burial grounds.

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 2 years ago

Or maybe the dinosaurs helped them

Do I recall correctly if I identify that as a Cobra Kai reference?

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

I presume that Snoke and the throne room were separate holograms! Neither was real, both were being projected into an empty storeroom, or onto a holodeck equivalent.

But the whole movie has huge problems with visual scale - like people on one planet being able to see another planet being destroyed, as if it were no further away than that planet's room. And the massive ring-shaped chung taken out of the starkiller planet looking no bigger than a bluff from the ground.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/66/StarkillerBase-FH.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/2000?cb=20171113021205

Those cliffs should have been a thousand miles high, and looming out of sight over everything. What kind of twerp director passes up the chance for that kind of visual, I ask!

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

presume that Snoke and the throne room were separate holograms! Neither was real, both were being projected into an empty storeroom, or onto a holodeck equivalent.

No because we saw the Snoke hologram frazzle up and then the room started to fall apart and break. Throne chair included.

But you're right otherwise - basic physics went straight out the window. I'm sure that planet destructing laser also moved across the sky in slow motion.

[–] ProgsReturn (1765) 2 years ago

If there's an elephant in the room, I'd say it's that the whole idea of starkiller base is conceptually silly.

[–] kuatorises (7467) 2 years ago

No one was talking about this.

And it's not a plot hole. It doesn't contradict, ruin, or negate anything.

[–] thingmakersback (1186) 2 years ago

And, on top of that, it is explainable. It's a Wizard of OZ sorta thing. Snoke is projected as a giant into the giant chair. If Snoke is absent, then the giant chair is still there, providing a creepy reminder of just how huge mighty Snoke is...

[–] FootOfDavros (6734) 2 years ago

I don't really see the Wizard of Oz analogue as working. In fact that's why I believe it to be a absence of logic plot hole.

We cannot believe that Kylo and Hux have only ever seen Snoke in this room, trembling in fear at the size of him, only to have the illusion revealed when the curtain is pulled back. They know exactly who he is - Kylo's literally been trained by him!

Therefore the room is a ridiculous elephant in the room. It only works as the Wizard of Oz for the audience, i.e. us the viewers, but within the actual story itself it's non explainable nonsense.

If perhaps there was a scene with Kylo and Hux (on their way to meet him) declaring Snoke as insane, saying what's he playing at with this ridiculous room, etc then the story logic would be complete. But without that we have a hole...

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 2 years ago

We cannot believe that Kylo and Hux have only ever seen Snoke in this room, trembling in fear at the size of him, only to have the illusion revealed when the curtain is pulled back. They know exactly who he is - Kylo's literally been trained by him!

The psychological effect remains the same. Consciously you know he's not that big, but instinctively you still respect the size of what you see before you.

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 2 years ago

the one which really had people talking on its initial release

I don't remember that at all. What I remember is that when people were talking about Snoke, it was first of all to make fun of the name choice.

It was a real, genuine once in a generation WTF moment as cinema goers had their minds blown in the realisation that there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for the room to be that big! It simply made no sense...

It's to appear big and domineering, to impress subjects, envoys and delegates. If medieval kings had the same technology, this is precisely what they would do as well.