Serious question.
If people say that gender is a social construct and the definition of woman changes between people, why are people who say that trans women are not real women called transphobic when it's their own definition?
shareYou are better than this.
I might not call someone transphobic, but I still want someone to tell me what makes me a real woman. I can tell you it's my vagina. I can also say that I think that there are a lot of people with penises who aren't men. So take from that whatever you want. I'm disappointed that you are brining this up.
You are better than this.
What the fuck is this patronising shit?? He’s ‘better’ than to ask pertinent and logical questions? You’re just pissed that he has debunked your deranged cult.
I can also say that I think that there are a lot of people with penises who aren't men.
You can, and if you were being serious then you’d be insane.
I'm disappointed that you are brining this up.
It should be every decent human being’s goal to disappoint you. share
Very close to being the Post of the Year.
shareThanks. I’m still gobsmacked at the obnoxiousness of sslssg’s post and the audacity to swoop in and aggressively gaslight someone asking a perfectly reasonable question.
But then, reason has always been a problem for the gender-cult. I’m just happy it’s finally starting to collapse and disturbed people are thinking twice about hacking off their healthy organs and permanently sterilising their children.
What did he do wrong? What else do you expect him to do?
shareTo understand that the majority of people on this planet have no idea what it is like to not feel at home in our bodies. To have compassion for others. To understand that for a lot of us the concept of woman or man is more than just out sexual organs. I don't know anyone trans or not that argues about the physical biology of male or female. That is a totally different concept as to what is a woman.
If I'm wrong, than why do people tell others to "Be a man", "Act like a man" or "you're not a real woman until you've...." "Now that's a woman" or even " A real man/woman wouldn't act that way". He understands that the terms have taken on different meanings than just biological sex. So why keep bringing it up?
I have asked many people the same question. Outside of genitals, what makes a man a man, and a woman a woman? Does behaviour not have anything to do with it? Do gender roles have nothing to do with it? There is no simple answer.
I've noticed that quite a number of people have been asking me to "have compassion" or "empathy" for others,
and these requests seem to be coming from people who don't give a fuck about me or mine, or any of OUR problems.
What are your problems?
shareI just told you. It was in the post you hit the reply button to. It WAS the post you read and then "replied" to.
Do you have a response to my point, or is this some weird evasion tactic to avoid addressing my point?
I don't know what your problems are either.
shareDo you care? Do you worry about my ability to deal with them, or how much harm they have done to my life? Ditto my peers.
shareWhat harm has been done to your life?
shareYou asked me to have "compassion for others".
Do you have compassion for me?
I try to have compassion for everyone I speak to, agree with them or not. You have asked if I worry about the harm they have done to your life, and I am asking you what harm has been done to you. How can I know your side of the story if you don't explain yourself? I can't feel for what I'm not aware of.
shareYou asked me to have compassion for someone, even though your premise was that I "have no idea" what their problem is like.
I ask if you have compassion for me, and instead of just saying YES, you want to have an "idea" of my problems.
That's already not an equal relationship. Which was my point.
AND, if I told you my problems, then you would JUDGE them and decide if they were good enough problems for you to care.
All of that, indicates that you are reserving your right to NOT care about my problems.
Yet, your request for me to care about those of trans people, still stands.
ANd it is worth noting that most people that are strongly pro-trans, that I do discuss my problems or issues, or concerns with,
are actively HOSTILE to me and mine.
So.... discuss.
You asked me to have compassion for someone, even though your premise was that I "have no idea" what their problem is like.
I ask if you have compassion for me, and instead of just saying YES, you want to have an "idea" of my problems.
That's already not an equal relationship. Which was my point.
AND, if I told you my problems, then you would JUDGE them and decide if they were good enough problems for you to care.
All of that, indicates that you are reserving your right to NOT care about my problems.
Yet, your request for me to care about those of trans people, still stands.
ANd it is worth noting that most people that are strongly pro-trans, that I do discuss my problems or issues, or concerns with,
are actively HOSTILE to me and mine.
So.... discuss.
First of all, I have not been hostile to you in this thread at all. You know what a transperson's problem is even if you don't understand it. I also told you that I have compassion for everyone I talk to even if I disagree with them. You also said,
Do you worry about my ability to deal with them, or how much harm they have done to my life?
I am asking you what harm has been done to you. You refuse to answer the question. I am treating you with respect. You are saying that I am
reserving your right to NOT care about my problems.
I ask how I can care about your specific problems if you won't tell me what they are. Everyone has problems. I respect that I will always try to help where, and how I can. One can have a compassionate disagreement. I may not agree with you. That does not mean that I lack empathy. share
Easy. Assume the problems are real and then have compassion for the pain they cause me.
If I don't need to understand hte problems of trans people to have compassion for them, then why do you need to understand my problems to have compassion for me?
Yeah, where have I said that I have no compassion for you?
shareI will say that currently my compassion towards you is coming from the point that with you claiming to have been harmed, yet still not attempting to clarify is aimed towards only what I can assume of you and the harm you have claimed to have suffered. I can imagine anything I want. In this case there is less empathy, and more pity.
shareThe trouble you had giving me a positive answer,... undermines your final answer, but, sure, thanks for your pity.
SO, you have pity for me. Does that mean that you support my desired policy solutions for the problems I have?
Ummm, what trouble did I have giving you a positive answer? Please point out where I have been negative.
I am trying to have a conversation with you here in good faith. I would like to know your points of view yet you refuse to enlighten me on what they are.
SO, you have pity for me. Does that mean that you support my desired policy solutions for the problems I have?
No. Simply because I don't know what they are. Like I mentioned before there is such a thing as compassionate disagreement. Here though, you are not even allowing for a disagreement, or an agreement.
Where there is compassionate disagreement, there also is a little thing called a bad faith argument. I believe this is the case here. share
1. You did not just say YES, despite your stated intent on TRYING to have compassion for everyone. It took several posts for you to finally say yes.
2. Got it. So, disagreement should NOT be assumed to be a result of not caring or being heartless. That's an important point. And I agree. Pretty good for a supposedly bad faith discussion?
3. How am I not allowing for the possibility of disagreement? I just asked if YOU had compassion for me.
THAT WAS A WHOLE BUNCH OF WORDS...YET YOU SAID ALMOST NOTHING...HOW MUCH PRACTICE DOES IT TAKE TO GET THAT WILLFULLY OBTUSE?
shareIt depends on what it is that you are dealing with. So what are your problems?
shareI don't think it does. All humans have burdens to bear. You either have compassion for their suffering or you don't.
It absolutely matters, if you are suffering the consequences of you own bad behavior, I don't have sympathy for you.
shareThat's fine.
But then don't come to me asking ME to have sympathy for something you care about.
That was my point.
How immature. Some things deserve sympathy others don't. Having sympathy for people struggling with their sexual identity is through no fault of their own and deserves compassion. You refusing to have sympathy for them makes you look immature and unkind.
shareYour assumption shows your truth.
You could have said, something like, "if you're are suffering from events outside your control, I do have sympathy for you".
You CHOOSE to assume an excuse to NOT have sympathy for me.
Which is what I have come to expect from people from your camp.
So, you demand compassion from me, for YOUR reasons, which YOU find so compelling, while dismissing my concerns or issues and assuming the worst about me.
i'M done giving concern or concessions to people that hate me and mine.
I don't even know what I'm supposed to feel sorry for you about! You never told me psycho!
shareDude. It's clear what your positions is. That same as the hard core lefties that represent the tranny movement.
You want to demand "compassion" and "understanding" from me, as part of REQUIRING ME to support and celebrate YOUR culture and policies and ideas,
while beng actively hostile to me and mine.
The level of entitlement and childishness revealed by this behavior would be hilarious, except for the fact that our political leadership is so weak or corrupted, that you are getting your way.
First of all, you're conflating two very different things. There's a big difference between criticizing somebody's masculinity/femininity, and determining that somebody is literally not a man/woman.
So is that your solution to the problem the OP brought up? Will understanding and compassion make the hypocrisy acceptable?
If someone is trans, they are living as that sex. Does it really matter if they don't have the proper genitals? I present female. I have female sex organs. Would you know that without getting in my pants? What difference does it make to you?
shareThe problem is not just "living as that sex", or "presenting as female".
They insist that trans women are LITERALLY female. 100%. They want that written in our science. And they want that affirmed and treated as such in every opportunity that exists (bathrooms, changing rooms, etc). Whatever has to be done to do that, whatever it costs, and whoever has to pay for it. They don't allow any disagreement or disbelief.
And anybody who disagrees, does not obey, and demands to discuss that will be called transphobic immediately.
THAT'S the problem.
I think that some of those statements are separate issues.
To your first point,
They insist that trans women are LITERALLY female. 100%. They want that written in our science.I'm not saying that those people don't exist, I just have yet to meet one. Most trans women I've met have been open about being trans. Men too. I have yet to hear a trans woman argue that they are biologically female.
To your second point
they want that affirmed and treated as such in every opportunity that exists (bathrooms, changing rooms, etc).
I'm not a man, so I don't know if men check out each other's genitalia in the washroom, but I have never seen another woman's in the ladies room. Should there be discussions about it? Sure. Why not? I've been in several gender neutral washrooms and have no problems with them. Are there risks to be considered? Absolutely. My issue in that regard is that those who want to cause harm to others already are doing so. Has this made it easier? Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.
As for your last point about anyone who disagrees is called transphobic, I ask by whom? If you are referring to online, yeah I agree with you. It's the way online people discuss things. We have several users on this site who will label you any sort of name or ist, if you disagree with them. I believe in person it is easier to ascertain who is transphobic, who actually has concerns but are willing to listen, and those who are quick to label. I don't feel that it's a simple black or white issue. There are many layers, many problems, and many solutions to the grey areas.
I think it's a complicated issue, but I don't feel that demonizing those affected is the right thing to do.
share
I'm not saying that those people don't exist, I just have yet to meet one. Most trans women I've met have been open about being trans. Men too. I have yet to hear a trans woman argue that they are biologically female.
In that case, you're a little bit more out of the loop with the people we typically argue with. I'm not saying that to criticize or belittle you; sorry if that's what I sounded like.
Those people who argue that trans women are real women, are the ones that this topic, and this documentary, are specifically fighting against.
I'm not a man, so I don't know if men check out each other's genitalia in the washroom, but I have never seen another woman's in the ladies room. Should there be discussions about it? Sure. Why not? I've been in several gender neutral washrooms and have no problems with them.
Trans women should not be in those washrooms seeking company and attention in the first place. Especially the pre-surgery ones.
It's not just washrooms either. It's also sports competitions, women-specific jobs, awards and scholarships. EVERYTHING that places them among real women.
As for your last point about anyone who disagrees is called transphobic, I ask by whom? If you are referring to online, yeah I agree with you. It's the way online people discuss things.
It's not just online, it's everywhere. Campuses, classrooms, faculties, parent-teacher meetings, courtrooms, congress, gender care clinics, etc. Accusing discrimination is the absolute #1 way to gain power over every one of these spaces.
I think it's a complicated issue, but I don't feel that demonizing those affected is the right thing to do.
That depends on what "demonizing" is. Is it unfairly punishing them, or mere refusal to indulge them? share
In that case, you're a little bit more out of the loop with the people we typically argue with. I'm not saying that to criticize or belittle you; sorry if that's what I sounded like.
Those people who argue that trans women are real women, are the ones that this topic, and this documentary, are specifically fighting against.
And I am not here to actually argue with anyone. I wanted to know why my friend was posting something that I thought wasn't like him.
Trans women should not be in those washrooms seeking company and attention in the first place. Especially the post-surgery ones.
Well here we have a very different opinion. The trans people I know use the washroom to use the washroom. Not seek company nor attention.
It's not just online, it's everywhere. Campuses, classrooms, faculties, parent-teacher meetings, courtrooms, congress, gender care clinics, etc. Accusing discrimination is the absolute #1 way to gain power over every one of these spaces.
Again, not a black or white issue. Some people who are claiming discrimination have actually been discriminated against. Some have not. Some people who whine about being called transphobic, are actually transphobic, and some are not.
I also don't think that "indulging" someone is what we are doing. Look up Gravelbro. Would you want him in a woman's washroom? Change room? Would he not make people uncomfortable? Like I said, it's not a simple issue, and really, no one really has a right to know what someone has in their pants. If it's a matter of safety, predators will find a way. They always have and they always will. share
And I am not here to actually argue with anyone. I wanted to know why my friend was posting something that I thought wasn't like him.
I'm not sure why you're surprised. You seem a little new to the "trans women are real women" part in the topic of transgenders. So shouldn't you similarly be interested in challenging that once you learned about it?
Well here we have a very different opinion. The trans people I know use the washroom to use the washroom. Not seek company nor attention.
You have to consider what I said next. All those other stuff I mentioned, and more stuff that I didn't.
Again, not a black or white issue. Some people who are claiming discrimination have actually been discriminated against. Some have not. Some people who whine about being called transphobic, are actually transphobic, and some are not.
Nevertheless, accusing discrimination is how they gain power and compel obedience on everyone, transphobic or not.
Is this Gravelbro a trans man? share
Can I ask if you know any trans people? I'm just curious.
Yes gravelbro is a transman that most people would freak out if they went into the women's restroom.
Also, didn't you hear about the trans man who was attacked for using the women's washroom?
In person, only two. Friendlisted on Facebook since graduation, but never spoke to each other on this topic.
Online, around 8. Not friends, and definitely not friendly.
How "MAN" is this Gravelbro?
Can you tell me about this story of the attack?
https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-attacked-using-womens-restroom-ohio-1723432
https://www.advocate.com/people/leo-macallan-tiktok-masculinity
The reason why I asked how many you know was because what the media presents is usually very different than real life. The media wants to make us angry. You say that I'm naive to the issue. I'm not. I have two trans individuals in my family. I work in an industry where I have encountered many. I've never heard anyone claim that the are biologically the sex of the gender they are. That's what makes them trans.
I'm not going to argue with you about what you think makes a woman a woman.
Also worth remembering that the gaslighting bullies here are trans-activists, not necessarily trannies themselves.
Many trannies are happy to be considered a ‘trans woman’ and have no desire to control language and thought.
Trans activists like sslssg are communists using the trans issue to make you reaffirm things you know to be false, which is the foundation of their power over you.
If one tries to infect you with this shit, smack them down immediately.
I don't know what sslssg said to you. But when she's talking to me, she's coming off a little more naïve than militant.
I disagree with her, but I'm not compelled to FIGHT her about it yet.
Oh her tactics are far more subtle than overt militancy, it’s all about getting around your mental defences and implanting doubt.
It’s closer to poisoning your drink than hitting you over the head.
Notice how she worked on samoanjoes in her first interaction in this thread - she tried to shame him for daring to ask a perfectly reasonable question.
I still want someone to tell me what makes me a real woman
Personally I feel it's XX chromosomes and someone who isn't transgender (however, there are some small variations to chromosomes, but that would enter an intersex debate).
I think that there are a lot of people with penises who aren't men.
I agree. Being born without an arm doesn't make someone less human the same way as being born without a penis doesn't make a man less of a man.
My point is that if people really believe that the definition of woman changes between people, then my definition above is impossible to be wrong or transphobic because it's my definition. I don't think the definition can change between people.
share
But transphobia by definition is having negative feelings, attitudes, or actions towards someone who is trans. Not understanding is not transphobia. Calling trans people freaks, treating them in a hateful manner, fearing them...that's transphobia.
shareI agree. That's my point. I mentioned this before to you, that's why I never use the word "tranny" to describe them.
shareI'm disappointed that you are brining this up.
You should probably check which board you are on. This discussion is the point of the documentary.
. If someone is trans, they are living as that sex. Does it really matter if they don't have the proper genitals? I present female. I have female sex organs. Would you know that without getting in my pants? What difference does it make to you?
I think most people will show compassion on an individual level, and will use whatever pronouns they think that person would want to use. Because no, it doesn’t matter to most people, and it does matter to the trans person quite a bit.
But there is still an objective reality, and if the question is are they the gender that they identify with, the answer is no.
As for yourself, I’m sure most people
Haven’t seen what’s in your pants, and yet most people probably correctly guess your gender. Why do you think that is?
share
Haven’t seen what’s in your pants, and yet most people probably correctly guess your gender. Why do you think that is?Because I present myself as a female. share
I think that there are a lot of people with penises who aren't men
You're using "real men" to describe strong noble men. It's also very male to be a weaselly self-obsessed sex-obsessed coward. Two sides of the same coin. share