The reason England lost. - 2022 FIFA World Cup Qatar (2022) Discussion

[–] FootOfDavros (7316) 2 years ago

England did better than I expected to be honest.

It was a weird game - Looked like they were going to get murdered in the first 10 mins but once France scored it was like they gave up...

But I don't know about England. The media was making a big deal about the strength in depth but then when push comes to shove, the subs to save the day - Mount and Sterling.

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[–] samoanjoes (53117) 2 years ago

I agree. England looked great. Although I normally want them to advance, I was pulling for France because I feel they have a better shot of beating Argentina in the final if it comes down to it.

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[–] FootOfDavros (7316) 2 years ago

Saka was excellent. But Foden not so much - they should have put Grealish on for him much earlier and see if he could have made a difference.

And the TAA thing. Crazy - England must have had three or four free kicks on the edge of the box and you've got one of the best free kick specialists sitting on the bench...

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[–] overseas7 (3725) 2 years ago

With "him" on the field the French would have stopped playing football..

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[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 2 years ago

I loved him in Pride & Prejudice, no one can play Elizabeth Bennet quite like Jack.

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[–] samoanjoes (53117) 2 years ago

He looks so pretty in the picture.

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[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 2 years ago

He looks a bit like that girl who plays for Man City.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

and Rashford too. Southgate put them on too late. :(

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[–] bobbydallas (8213) 2 years ago

i thought Rashford should be in the starting 11.....

but hey i'm no coach

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[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 2 years ago

Southgate failed again. It was no surprise to me I expected to see England to face France here and lose ever since the WC draw.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

I do think Southgate is a good Manager though, because we have not come this far in a long time and he has been great in uniting the team, which was always lacking in the teams of the 00s and 10s. The older English squad hated each other if they were not on the same Premiership team which Gerard, Lampard and Ferdinand finally admitted to last year when asked why England never did well back then. I think we should have one more term with Southgate and then see what happens. At least I don't feel upset like I used to when we lose now because England play the best they can right to the end.

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[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 2 years ago

Me either, this has been an ok WC for England, with only one really bad game to watch (Vs USA). I think he'll stay for the Euros but after that I'd rather see Eddie Howe or Graham Potter as the England manager.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

Just as long as the manager has the same values and keeps the team solid and united then we can't go wrong. I like that there are no divas in the team. They all play as one and support each other.

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[–] spurtle467 (1520) 2 years ago

I wasn't that upset either, not because we played well but because I'm used to us going out to any big team we face in these high pressure games. I don't know how old you are but I've been used to seeing it for 30 years. England are sadly the biggest underachievers in world football without a shadow of a doubt. People will look to Southgate to why we've gone out every time we face someone meaningful under his tenure, only I'm not sure it's a Southgate thing when it's happened for years under different and better managers.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

I'm in my early 40s so had my fair share of disappointment when it comes to England, so much so that I gave up watching or caring about the Premiership after the World Cup in South Africa. Got sick and tired of the players not wanting to play for their country all because they didn't get along. Hated John Terry the most. We were ok in the 90s but we are better now since Southgate took over. 2018 was when I started to pay more attention again and felt proud of our team. FINALLY!!! I will never forget that penalty shootout we won too. Bloody hell I was in bits and still cried when we won the shootout. It was a weird feeling because we haven't experienced that before (well in my lifetime or as far as I can remember). It's so nice now to feel proud of the team and I do thank Gareth for that.

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[–] spurtle467 (1520) 2 years ago

You are the same age as me then so we should be able to relate to the same level of disappointment with England. The penalty shootout against Colombia was a good moment to break that duck. We have a lot to be thankful for Pickford with that IMO. He's the best performing keeper we've had since Banks and is actually useful in shootouts where previous keepers haven't been.

I would say the team spirit with England is better now. It's a happier camp than we've seen in past tournaments with less ego running through the group and less of that club rivalry between players that we have been told about with the Golden Generation. But still we can't seem to beat these bigger teams when we face them.

Southgate is good with certain aspects such as building that spirit within the squad and keeping the players on board. I'm afraid in terms of the tactical side he is lacking and the substitutions he makes in games or doesn't make raises question marks. Whether we should get rid or not I'm not exactly sure because there are no immediate contenders to replace on the horizon. I do however believe he's taken us as far as we'll ever go and can't help but think we have wasted the best chance we'll get of winning something these past five years for a while.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

Yes, it hurt so much every time we didn't get far back then. Not even to the knockout stages which was embarrassing. I loved my football so much during my teens, 20s and early 30s, that I used to go watch my team play at the pub every weekend during the Premiership, Champions League etc... (I didn't have Sky at the time), but like I mentioned, my love for football left when we went home early from South Africa. I just couldn't cheer anyone on anymore. What was the point. They just wanted fame and fortune back then.

Southgate should have started with Rashford etc... but I would give him one last chance just because they are all used to each other and they have respect for one another too. If we fail again, then have someone else take the mantle, but whoever replaces him should have the same ethos and encourage the team to work together and not allow anyone to grow a big head and think they are number one. He has managed to ground them all, which is very commendable. We have such a great and strong team, that I'm excited for the future.

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[–] spurtle467 (1520) 2 years ago

I don't see what the point in keeping him is anymore. We can talk about how the future looks bright and the youngsters look good etc. but he is proven now three times to not be able to overcome a big team in the latter stages of a tournament, and each time you could argue the changes he made to try and win or avoid defeat weren't good enough. Why should we expect that to be different the next time of asking? I feel like the Euros last year really was a glorious chance to win something wasted, as that was home advantage and another nice draw. That is not going to come around again for a while as already evident by us going out at an earlier stage in this WC.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

Yea I understand the frustration, but look at it this way, he did get us into the Finals of the Euros last year, which we haven't been in the finals for decades and we lost on penalties, so not really his fault or the players as it is a game of chance when it comes to penalties. Also the refereeing was questionable again when Saka was pulled to the ground and no red card given to Italy. Italy were a big team too and they couldn't beat us during normal time or extra time.

We reached the Semi Finals in the World Cup 2018, again something that hasn't happened in decades. We also won our first penalty shootout in a very long time. That was a real shock to us all.

This time, we had a bias ref and Kane missed, but true, Southgate should have put Rashford on from the beginning. That was a mistake, but because of how far we have gotten in 3 big tournaments, that is why I think he deserves another go, but only one last go. :-)

Hopefully he will learn from the mistakes of Saturday's match and if we fail again, then replace him.

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[–] MichelleDessler (422) 2 years ago

Also, we did play well against France, but we had the ref and VAR to challenge with too. Yes Kane, should have scored that penalty, but it was tough watching really blatant fouls we should have gotten free kicks and a penalty for.

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[–] NotoriousRio (12927) 2 years ago

If footballing nations were EPL teams, England would be the Tottenham Hotspur of world football, great in the 60’s but phenomenal underachievers ever since.

Yet hope remains, France (once the West Ham of world football!) are pretty much now the Chelsea of world football, in just 20+ years they have won two World Cups after never appearing in a final before ’98.

With a serial winner appointed as manager, and a bit of luck, England could become the Man City of World Football, 20 years from now. There is always hope.

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[–] spurtle467 (1520) 2 years ago

Being English and a Spurs supporter myself I would agree, as I seem to get double the disappointment other fans get.

It really is true though - A team that won something big in the 60's and have struggled to replicate it since, recently got to a major final and bottled it, tend to lose to the bigger teams in the latter stages of competitions, usually have some type of injustice/bad luck/foolish moments that define the big losses and failings. You could be describing either England or Spurs there.

France always seemed to be a bit more likely of achieving than England IMO. Got to a semi of a WC 3 times and won a Euros all before we even reached another SF in '90. They have well and truly made up for it now, just as Spain did recently.

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

The ref and his awful decisions?

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[–] samoanjoes (53117) 2 years ago

I think the refs were fine for the most part. That Argentina game yesterday though was a different story.

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[–] Lucia2016 (563) 2 years ago

No one has the balls to drop Kane, he's not been right for ages and has just looked sluggish and no goal threat

I know he's not same level but i would have rather a fast fit Wilson to run in behind at least

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[–] spurtle467 (1520) 2 years ago

Why would you drop him? Played well last night and should have been awarded a pen through his good play. Had a decent tournament getting 2 goals and 3 assists. Has 53 goals in 80 games. Is far and away England's best goalscorer and arguably our only world class player. Don't tell me it's just because he missed a penalty?

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[–] Martoto (4467) 2 years ago

The two penalties he awarded to England?

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

One he took minutes to verify on VAR when everybody could see it was a blatant penalty and a red card. Attacking player 1 on 1 with the keeper and getting shoved off the ball from behind by the defender is a straight red, and a penalty. Ref stood for ages scratching his head, when it was blatant, and then reluctantly gave a penalty and no red.

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[–] Martoto (4467) 2 years ago

It wasn't a red. And you got the pen but missed.

England just found their limit. As per.

You can't blame the ref because you missed a pen he awarded to you that would only have seen you go level.

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

Yeh the ref didn't award a red.

Maybe read up on the rules of football. The ref certainly should. He took minutes to decide, along with help, that it was actually a penalty after the last man was shoved over in the box. He stood staring at the VAR screen for literally minutes.

"Last Man Rule:
In football, the term last man refers to a situation wherein the attacking player owns the ball and is faced with one opposing defender standing between him and the goal. If the defender commits a foul against the attacking player, a red card is given as a penalty. This is often referred to as a professional foul.

Understanding Last Man in Football
The last man is considered a deliberate foul against an attacking player to prevent him from scoring a goal. The defender would deny the other player from scoring an obvious opportunity to make a goal by committing a professional foul. This kind of attack would usually result in a free kick or penalty kick to the attacking team. Despite the awarding of a free-kick, this act lowers the chance of scoring as compared to its original position during the play."

Again so you "get it".

"Is the ‘last man’ still a red card? If a defending player fouls an attacker which prevents a goal-scoring chance, it’s a red card regardless of the seriousness of the tackle. A red card is not given when a covering defender is nearby to stop the chance."

It's literally in the rules of the game that this was a RED CARD.

https://soccerblade.com/soccer-red-card-rules-official/

The ref was awful, just admit it.

England lost fair and square (almost).

The ref was still awful. Why are you defending a ref that doesn't know the last man rule and takes 5 minutes to award one of the most blatant penalties I've ever witnessed in the sport.

Do you also want the offiside rules explained, or have you got that one?

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[–] moviechatterer (14184) 2 years ago

Should be a red card if you ask me , along with all the other diving , play acting , foul claiming and ref arguing.
but ....

https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/fouling-the-last-man-will-no-longer-be-a-red-card-offence-399749

"According to reports, the UEFA Executive Committee has handed down a new set of orders to refs in Europe.
Taking down the last man or denying a goal scoring opportunity will no longer be a red card offence, according to a new mandate from the UEFA Executive Committee. Spanish newspaper AS are reporting that the group met in Bilbao on 12th December, and decided that the punishment was too excessive. The official UEFA report states that they reiterated their desire to see it changed, but AS report that Platini has already given the refs new instructions."

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

UEFA and FIFA are separate entities.

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[–] Martoto (4467) 2 years ago

It wasn't a red card offence. Barely even a yellow.

Kane missed the second penalty kick England were awarded. The amount of time it takes for a VAR review to ensure the correct decision was made to award the PK, and the French player staying on the pitch had zero to do with England failing to draw themselves level again from the spot kick.

When you are chasing the game and fail to convert a penalty then blame the ref for using VAR to give you the opportunity to do so, it doesn't look good. But it is a typically England thing to do. Ironic considering how disgusted the English media were at Uruguay placing blame at the referee's feet for their failure.

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

Google "Last Man Rule".

Like the ref, you're obviously unaware of the rules. (which I presented to you, and you ignored)

>It wasn't a red card offence.

Shoving the last man over in the penalty area in front of the goalie, when you're behind without making any attempt to get the ball.

Straight red mate. Is this the first "soccer" match you've ever witnessed?

I already admitted England lost fair and square (almost), they didn't convert in open play and France won as the better team.

The ref was terrible, and shouldn't ever set foot on a football field for an international again. Just admit it.

You don't know the rules of a game you're watching, and that's OK.

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[–] Martoto (4467) 2 years ago

Needs to have prevented a definite and clear goal scoring opportunity. It wasn't. It was a 50/50 challenge in the air. With covering defenders next to where the foul took place. It was a penalty. But not a red card by any means.

"The last man" refers to the last defender. Not the attacker. "Shoving over the last man in the box...." is totally irrelevant and proves you don't know the rules or what you are talking about.

England losing the game has nothing to do with the ref so why are you still going with this if you acknowledge they lost fair and square? Because it's comforting to deflect while pretending to have the moral high ground I suppose.

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[–] mitzibishi (1648) 2 years ago

"It was a 50/50 challenge in the air."

Obviously you're not talking about the same thing. Both players feet were firmly on the ground. There was no jumping in the air for a 50/50 challenge. The French player did not challenge for the ball. Wasn't even looking at the ball. Then made a professional foul.

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