Is this a BAD standalone film?


It seems to me that Lucas made a clear choice: this would be a truncated film, to leave a bunch of dark cliffhangers sending everybody to the next chapter.
So, we are left wondering, what will happen to Han? How can they win? How can Luke defeat Vader? etc. The darker, the better.

Pretty much nothing is resolved, a lot of new issues and questions are brought up, and above all, our heroes lose big time.

Other than leaving us down, wandering how all this will be fixed, does it create ANYTHING that can stand on its own without the other episodes?

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No no

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Great analysis, loved the insight.
Thanks for the reply.

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I agree with javie

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An extremely concise answer but I agree with him.

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[deleted]

"Pretty much nothing is resolved"

Seeing how unsatisfying those resolutions were in Return of the Jedi, I'd also answer no to your question. The Empire Strikes Back was my first Star Wars movie, I had no prior knowledge of the first movie. It blew my mind nevertheless. Return of the Jedi was a dissappointment even already in 1983, well maybe except for some space battle scenes and Luke and Vader confrontation.

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This one is a great movie experience.
But it would never work as a standalone film because its real greatness comes from all these interesting cliffhangers that, once resolved, are quite not that interesting anymore.
ROTJ has the guts and the honesty to give resolutions and explanations.

Look, it's like that alluring hot girl that everybody dreams to get with, and then once you manage to be with her the reality is that she wasn't all that.
It's just a bunch of empty promises: way easier to talk the talk than to walk the walk.

Also, on this same topic, once you raise the expectations that much, by leaving so many unanswered questions and problems, you are kinda setting youself up for failure: it's difficult to live up to what a viewer of ESB fantasizes will happen next, of course the real movie will be a disappointment.
It would be better to just resolve the point already instead of leaving it hanging
(example: Han is frozen! Oh no!!!
- So? He gets to Jabba, they rescue him quite quickly. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Couldn't they have ended ESB on that beat? No, Lucas wanted the cliffhangers).

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No

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Star Wars is VASTLY OVERRATED, it should've ended with Revenge of the Sith. No TV series, no stupid Disney movies or TV series, nothing more. And I don't count the many novel spin-offs as canon, neither.

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"Star Wars is VASTLY OVERRATED"

Well, considering there's only one masterpiece level work in the entire saga, The Empire Strikes Back, I could say overall its overrated. Of the prequels only Attack of the Clones had some clever things going on.

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Ironically, some of us find the prequels to be vastly overrated these days. I'm a big fan of the OT, and while I respect other points of view - everybody can like whatever they want - all I need for my Star Wars enjoyment is A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi.

I never read many of the novels, but I do like some of the ideas they had about how to continue the tale.

As to TV shows, I've heard Clone Wars and The Mandalorian are good, but I haven't seen either of those (nor any of the others) and I cannot comment.

Then there's the Ewok adventure movies, which are bad, but kinda charming in that "1980s cheap fantasy movie" way.

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"all I need for my Star Wars enjoyment is A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi."

That's fine if you have the Original ORIGINAL Trilogy, Ace, but I DON'T. So I'm FORCED to feature the PT into it, although I like the first and the third. The second can go hang, as far as I'm concerned.

I saw the original Droids TV series, and that was surely embarrassing! Nope to the Ewok movies.

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I do, AMJF. I pop that DVD into the drive and up comes the title crawl: "STAR WARS". Doesn't even say "Episode IV"...

I always find it interesting which of the PT people like. Some like them all, but most people select either the Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones as "Screw this movie," and don't like it either (the way some OT fans get their grumbles out for Return of the Jedi).

Ewok movies are bad, yes. I just think they're "fun" bad. It helps that they are so far removed from the original characters, so they don't feel like they're really even Star Wars. I think the sequels left such a bad taste in everybody's mouths because they weren't just bad movies, they tainted the legacy of the "main" plotline.

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How does ending in a cliffhanger and being dark make ESB a "bad" film?

Very little was meant to be resolved (unlike ANH which could be a standalone film) since Lucas was pretty certain he was going to be able to wrap things up in the following movie.

I really don't get your post... you are asking about this movie as a standalone film when it isn't.

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BAD --STANDALONE-- film.
Read the whole sentence.

Star Wars is also part of a series, it works quite well as a standalone film, yes?
Or ROTJ, ROTS, etc?

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You are calling it something it isn't.

A standalone film is a film that does not have any relation with other films... this one does.

Your question is like asking: Do you think Frank Sinatra is a BAD reggaeton artist?

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1 Frank Sinatra is a GREAT reggaeton artist.
2 OK let me explain my point, I see yours.
This is a movie part of a series, not an episode in a tv series.
Movies usually work as a standalone experience. Movies in a series usually try to give each episode its own beginning and end.
ESB was one of the first examples, if not THE first, deliberately leaving the audience wanting the next film to explain what happens to the events in this one. The two movies were planned together as a 1-2.
STILL, ESB could have worked as a standalone film too, but in my opinion it does not work well as such, because of the choices that Lucas made.
Even truncating its story could work as a standalone film, but this one had not much of a theme of truncating events or action or moments: it just happen to end there for the cliffhanger effect (which is quite cheap in my opinion for high art).
Example of this done right: BTTF2, also need BTTF3 to wrap events up but is also a great standalone film, with its own style, mood, setting, adventure, beginning and end.

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No

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I think you're right. First, insofar as the film assumes that we have prior knowledge of these characters (yes, we get the opening title crawl, but it's clearly building on the previous film; Star Wars didn't rely on its title crawl in the same way). Second, because too many plot threads are left unresolved.

Star Wars doesn't end this way. The Death Star explodes, Tarkin is dead, and Vader is spinning into space. The heroes complete their journey and celebrate together. Full end. Even though the Empire isn't fully defeated, if Star Wars were the only film, we'd assume that the loss of the Death Star was basically the end of their military might and led to their ultimate defeat.

The trilogy doesn't resolve as a whole until Return of the Jedi.

So, yes, I agree with you in that - without RotJ - Empire would leave people feeling like they got half a story.

With that said, this isn't a mark against the movie in any way. It wasn't designed to be a standalone story, and it is brilliant in its execution. It might rely on us having seen Star Wars, but not so much that we won't catch up. As for the ending, Luke's arc is complete, as is the love story, and even though too many plot threads dangle (will the Empire be defeated? What will happen to Han? What about the Luke/Vader thing!?) this film does give us complete arcs within itself.

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"Star Wars doesn't end this way. The Death Star explodes, Tarkin is dead, and Vader is spinning into space. The heroes complete their journey and celebrate together. Full end."

IMHO, not quite. Luke doesn't confront his daddy's killer personally which everybody in the audience expects after hearing that Vader killed his father. What happened to Vader in the final battle at the death star was just lame.

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It's still resolved, though. If the film had been a standalone, Luke triumphing at the Death Star might not have been the best resolution for Luke and Vader, but it still wraps up.

Compare this to Empire Strikes Back where Luke's confrontation with Vader ends in a far less definitive way, where Han is still frozen, and where the Rebels have just barely managed to reassemble their forces - forget even defeating their political counterparts.

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Hey Ace, how's it going man?
Good reply, I also don't think it's something to hold against the movie as it is supposed to be continued later on.
But it COULD have been a solid standalone movie too, like the first one, as you mentioned: the movie works in itself and as a part of a series. There are some lose ends but the main themes and arches are explored to a satisfactory end.

I just wish ESB had a bigger aim, than just being a great cliffhanger episode that will leave everybody wanting for more. It could have been also a great solid film on its own, even leaving lots of the same hanging stories.

But I don't understand how you see the love story and Luke's story as complete. If anything, one is barely starting (we wanna see them get together and be happy ever after) and the other one is clearly halfway, waiting for Luke to actually finish his training with Yoda and kick ass! (which he eventually never does, but isn't that what you expected for a sequel after watching ESB?)

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No

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Going pretty good. How are you?

They could have done a similar thing to the first film, but I like what they did with it. I think they were able to engage with a larger story, showing a more gradual growth to Luke's character and his arc with Vader. I think they managed to get more out of it because of this. To wrap up those plot lines would be to have ESB end with the throne room scene, and that's the end of the trilogy. It becomes an mind-blowing, three-hour sequel (where they probably recover Han's body from Boba Fett in a space chase). Furthermore, the gap between ESB and RotJ lets us imagine Luke honing his Jedi skills, bringing him to the place he is at the beginning of the third film.

So, I agree that the plot threads aren't completed, but the arcs are, and here's the distinction I'm drawing:
Han and Leia spend the movie flirting and dancing around the love-hate they've got, but it's all (masterfully) unspoken. The tension is drawn out, and constantly jeopardized. First by their natural prickliness, later by 3PO interrupting, and then by Lando and Vader. While we don't get to see them together (dangling thread) we do hear them vocalize it. At the last second possible, Leia says she loves Han, and he confirms this in his inimitable style. The arc is complete (do they love each other?) even if the story continues (will they get back together!?)

With Luke, he's training to be a Jedi and confront Vader and avenge his father. His arc is frustrated by failure - all of his own impatience. He rushes his training, but he does confront Vader. Then, we get the curveball of all movie curveballs and the plot thread (Luke becomes a Jedi, avenges his father) becomes a new plot thread (Luke deals with the ramifications of the duel). He also, by sacrificing himself for his friends (and then by leaping from the catwalk), learns the true cost and discipline that Yoda was trying to teach him, rejects the Dark Side, and fulfills his destiny predicted in his cave failure. The arc (his impatience and self-obsession) is completed (he denies himself and rejects his father), even though the plot continues (he must deal with the consequences of his rushed confrontation with Vader).

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It was not conceived as a standalone film and could never exist as a standalone film. It was conceived as act 2 of a 3-act story. Your question is entirely non sequitur.

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+1

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But IMAGINE if ESB was the FIRST Star Wars movie you ever saw?

Ironically, I saw ANH AND ROTJ BEFORE ESB, so to me, it was also out of sequence.

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Well, that's on you. You shouldn't have done that. Only bad people watch movie series out of order.

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"Bad" people? You arrogant fuckwit!

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Be better!

I'm just kidding dude, I know Star Wars is a very obscure franchise, how in the hell were you supposed to know the correct order to watch them in? Literally nobody knows that.

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True, it does not work as a standalone, that's pretty much the one thing I hold against it when it comes to the question which of the first three movies is the best. Especially the open ending.

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As a modern version of the 1930s sci-fi serials, the fact there is no major introduction or conclusion is brilliant since those classic series always ended on cliffhangers.

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