MovieChat Forums > Queen Cleopatra (2023) Discussion > Egyptian experts want series banned

Egyptian experts want series banned


When the trailer for the docudrama series Queen Cleopatra, with Adele James in the lead, dropped, it caused outrage in Egypt. Variety reported in April 2023 that Egyptian academics claimed Cleopatra was of European descent and not Black.

Zahi Hawass, a prominent Egyptologist, was quoted by the al-Masry al-Youm newspaper as strongly disputing the possibility that Cleopatra was of mixed race. "This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was light-skinned, not Black.”

An Egyptian lawyer filed a complaint demanding that legal measures be taken to block Netflix from airing the series in Egypt citing the docudrama violates the country's media laws, writing Netflix is trying to “promote the Afrocentric thinking … which includes slogans and writings aimed at distorting and erasing the Egyptian identity.”

https://harpersbazaar.com.au/cleopatra-netflix-show-controversy-explained/

Hard to argue. I’d think Egyptian scholars would know more about Cleo’s heritage than producer Jada Pinkett Smith or anyone else involved in this fanfic fantasy series.

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Zahi Hawass is a racist, misogynist and anti-Semite. He believes the ancient Egyptians were all white which is complete nonsense.

And he's a dummy for not knowing that Macedonians weren't Greek. Two distinct groups.

The archeologists who found the skeleton of Cleopatra's sister were the ones who said that she was part black and Macedonian.

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Here we have WHITE American XENOPHOBE explaining why Egyptians are somehow 'wrong' about their own history.

Talk about American arrogance, appropriation and imperialism, but exactly what I'd expect from a proud Democrat Party member (remember the DNC is every bit as patriotic, pro-American, jingoistic and pro-war as the damn GOP; the entire political establishment, including the GOP [far-right] and the DNC ['moderate' right] is simply an extension of the industrial-military-complex and advocates for global capitalism. Shame on ANYONE who simps for EITHER party INCLUDING the one founded to preserve SLAVERY). 😠 And shame on the arrogance of a non-archeologist American attacking a qualified Egyptian archeologist as a 'dummy'. The XENOPHOBIA, and RACISM towards North Africans, is strong with this faux-'liberal'.

This subjective, discretionary 'My Truth' view of *history* really needs to be challenged. I'm seeing people categorised as Black simply according to how they make people *feel* or how they are historically perceived, and not in accordance with anything approaching ACTUAL history. This is juvenile, anti-science 'goodies versus baddies' pseudo-history, which contributes to racial division (by treating race as a feeling or a characteristic, rather than an objective matter), it gives too much power to bad faith actors, and it shouldn't be long before wannabes like Rachel Dolezal are embraced as 'POC' simply because that's how they'd prefer to be regarded.

But tell me, if I now choose to identify as Black will you support my delusion? As someone of Iberian ancestry who has been told I have a 'Black nose' (whatever that means), I surely have as much claim to Blackness as Cleopatra, although I am not a dead and misunderstood figure who occupied a foreign nation, committed fratricide, after having sex with a brother, murdered a sister, or seduced two military men in order to maintain my power, so perhaps I don't possess the right stuff to be treated...

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...as a symbol of Black power and strength. 🤷‍♂️

I'm just a meek non-murderer, non-incestuous, non-adulterer, non-imperialist who does stuff like volunteer for the homeless every week, and does pro-bono work for abused women, benefit recipients, the disabled, and young offenders wanting to be rehabiltated into society, so, I guess that's not what POC wish to identify with. I don't know. 🤷‍♂️

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What supposed 'intellect' and 'scholar' Keelai fails to add here is that the skeleton she refers to was supposedly of Cleopatra's *half*-sister, Arsionoe IV, and the claim that Cleopatra was part-Black on this basis has been rejected by the overwhelming body of scholars because the remains are impossible to identify as Arsinoe, the race of the remains are impossible to identify at all, the remains belonged to a child much younger than Arsinoe when she died, and although Arsinoe and Cleopatra shared the same father, Ptolemy XII Auletes, they are believed to have had different mothers (hence 'half-sister').

Once again, 'facts' are cherry-picked to serve a narrative, without providing us ALL the facts, and this is why so many of us on the left have a bad name. Because *establishment* Democrats, as opposed to fact-based progressive leftists and liberals, like myself, prefer to manipulate information for their own ends.

Does that make them better or worse than pig-ignorant Republicans and right-wingers?

Arguably, it might make them worse, because you know what they say about a little knowledge...

At least one knows where one stands with most Republicans. EVERYTHING they say can be treated as BULLSHIT, but the DANGEROUS thing about establishment libs like Keelai is that they will trot out *half*-truths to embellish their agenda, *without* giving you the FULL facts, and so it's harder to discern what is and isn't correct.

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None of what you wrote is true. The tomb and the skeleton's identity are not in dispute. The timeline of her murder also matches the age of the skeleton and tomb.

Cherry-picking is nonstop white-washing of history. It's typical to deny or question achievements by BIPOC. She must be a 1/2 sister since she's probably part black? Give me a break! Zero evidence. If she had no black ancestry, then she would still be considered a full sister. I've heard racist B.S. my entire life.

FYI, the ancients were not like modern-day racists. The Ancient Egyptians were made up of multiple black ethnic groups from the South and multiple Asiatic groups from the North who intermarried. They also were heavily influenced and married Nubians as well as subsequent conquerors.

White supremacists want you to believe Egypt is in Europe and they were all white Caucasians which is white supremacists propaganda. Ditto, presenting Jesus as a WASP with blondish hair and blue eyes.

You have to decide if you prefer lies because you fear the truth or if you want to know the truth because you cherish it and are curious. Here's some food for thought:

George Washington was NOT the 1st American president. John Hanson was:
https://mytpl.org/project/americas-secret-the-presidents-before-george-washington/

American democracy and Constitution were heavily influenced by the Iroquois Confederacy. Congress officially recognized their contribution:
https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/hconres331.pdf

https://www.pbs.org/native-america/blogs/native-voices/how-the-iroquois-great-law-of-peace-shaped-us-democracy/

1/3 of cowboys in the Old West were black or Mexican. Try finding that truth in a Western film!
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/lesser-known-history-african-american-cowboys-180962144/
https://www.history.com/news/mexican-vaquero-american-cowboy

Truth is beautiful! Don't fear it.

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🤦‍♂️

And I thought it was only the far-right that was full of conspiracy theory bullshit.

Clearly there are crackpots on all sides of the political spectrum.

Also, who brought up Egypt or Jesus? Assuming the latter existed, of course I don't believe either Jesus or the Egyptians were blond blue-eyed WASPs/Europeans, but we were talking about Cleopatra, a European *imperialist*.

And what 'achievements'? Cleopatra was an imperialist who killed her own siblings and seduced military leaders, one of whom killed the other for her.

You're as bad as the anti-vax/election was stolen brigade. You want to believe whatever niche BS adheres to your view of the world, regardless of the facts.

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We're talking about history and how it's distorted to fit a racist, white-supremacist narrative. I hope you're not one of those ignorant deniers of racism and the Holocaust.

The OP is about banning the show because a black actress is in it. He's a known racist. He never complains when whites are portrayed as brown-skinned Ancient Egyptians.

Topic is Egypt. The censor is an Egyptologist.

Jesus existed. Rabble-roused for a while and was crucified for the trouble which inspired a religious movement. The other stuff about miracles, rising after 3 days and the virgin birth are fiction and great marketing. Anyway, Jews in Judea during that era did NOT look like WASPs with blondish, straight hair and blue eyes. Can I remind you that Jews are an Asiatic people, not Northern Europeans.

Kill or be killed. That's what rulers did in those days. U.S. created the idea of peaceful transfer of power that Trump attempted to destroy.

She was a scholar who spoke many languages with an interest in knowledge, science and medicine.
"https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/three-ways-cleopatra-contributed-to-science-and-medicine";

"She built up the Egyptian economy, establishing trade with many Arab nations. She was a popular ruler among the people of Egypt both because she embraced the Egyptian culture and because the country was prosperous during her rule."

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Keelai, you're a pretty good poster in here but come on, you think Hawass is wrong about this? He knows more about ancient Egypt than just about anyone else in the world. He denies Cleopatra was black and that makes him racist? Really now...

Besides, only whites can be racist.

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Hawass is an ass. Perfect name for him.

He's a racist, anti-Semite and misogynistic POS. He has a long history of lies and twisting the truth. I have zero patience for that moron.

He's an opportunist who hoodwinked himself to Mubarak, was fired then hoodwinked himself to another politician. He's despised.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/07/egyptians-celebrate-firing-of-the-mubarak-of-antiquities/242110/

I've spent a lifetime watching white actors portraying black and brown Egyptians in "Ten Commandments", "The Egyptian", "The Mummy", etc. with zero white viewers complaining about the inaccuracy. The one time a POC plays an Egyptian and white people are up in arms. It's racist and hypocritical!

I learned the truth about their racial make-up from a very knowledgeable and honest Egyptologist who also said Jews were never enslaved nor were the pyramids built from straw and mud. That was the first time I learned that lies were told about history. I spent a lifetime trying to discover the truth. Ask yourself why do you fear it?

Hawass isn't white.

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Hawass might be an ass and a racist too but that doesn't automatically mean he's wrong about Cleopatra.

Every image we've seen of her looks slightly different. Her coins, wall art, statues etc... all look different. But they all have one thing in common, her image doesn't have "negro features".

We may never know for sure what race she looked like. But it's not likely she was 100% "black" as in what we know today as Afrocentric. None of the portraits show her with negro features like wide nostrils, enlarged lips and really dark skin. I am NOT trying to sound racist here, so don't even try to make accusations.

Although, here's this DNA portrait of her which makes it appear as though she could have had some black relatives in her family at one time or another....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ee/34/be/ee34be777d441e086d9e06eb7fe274ae.jpg

At the very least, she could have been mixed race. But at the end of the day, I don't care what they do with movies and docs that portray her. The fact is, nothing will come close the '63 film (simply called - Cleopatra) with Liz Taylor, that is a great film.

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Hawass believes ALL Ancient Egyptians were white. He's an ass. They were clearly black, Asiatic, racially-mixed and later European added to mix. Great melting pot!

Cleopatra: neither black nor white, but only the black actress is attacked. The obvious racist double standard is my main complaint.

Not all black people have thick lips, dark skin and broad noses.

Cleopatra was no great beauty. No one discusses the lie about her being beautiful.

Good photo. Likely accurate. We need an uggo to portray her next time.

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>>Hawass believes ALL Ancient Egyptians were white

Ok, you will have to back this up with a quote from Zahi. When has he ever said "all AEs were white".

No one in here is "attacking" the black actress, they're just saying they don't think she was black, it's nothing personal against the woman they chose. And perhaps it's true, maybe Cleo wasn't black. And if she was mixed, we can't use the "one drop" rule like we do in America today. We don't know what the political climate was back then. However, mixed people were probably not considered "black".

There is not very much written history of how the races were treated in AE.

And yes, not all black people have those features but many of them do. Its a very common trait.

I agree that she probably wasn't a great beauty. I view her as more of a Wallis Simpson type in the looks department. Which, I always considered Wallis to be very plain looking and it often makes me wonder why a future king would have been interested in her.

But as it stands, people from Cleo's time did rave about her looks. I've read a few articles about it. And she was able to bag some really high ranking men. So, who knows...

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Of course, they are attacking the casting of a black actress!

It's ridiculous for anyone to complain about Cleo when Hollywood whitewashing black, brown and Asian people in movies has been the norm. Your (plural) hypocrisy is showing!
https://gizmodo.com/the-ten-worst-examples-of-whitewashing-from-the-last-fi-1749960081

https://atlantablackstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/King-Tut-Family-768x576.jpg

Hawass' racism and promotion of his fictitious WASPy Ancient Egypt are well-known and common knowledge. You can Google my former comments and links about him on this site.

Looks aren't everything. It's obvious that Cleo was very intelligent, strong, charming, charismatic, seductive and personable. Misogynistic movies overemphasis her (nonexistent) beauty and ignore her intellectual accomplishments.

I found one historian, Roman Cassius Dio, describe her as “a woman of surpassing beauty”. Sucking up?

(In your linked image, her hair should be wavier/curlier and upper lip thicker. We don't know her true skin tone. She could have been darker especially if she was mixed. I know many white Hispanics and Italians who become brown during summer months. Don't underestimate black heritage.)

The real issue is ongoing white supremacy and racism in the U.S. and Egypt.

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Macedonians were not Greek, but they were closely related to the Greeks. You also ignore that Alexander the Great's Empire was usurped by the Greeks. So the invaders who took Egypt were primarily Greek. So Cleopatra's ancestors, the Ptolemies, mixed with Greeks in Egypt.

The ancient Egyptians were Semitic, like Arabs and Jews. They were not black like sub-Saharan Africans.

Obviously no one was ethnically pure. Semitics mixed with blacks.

But the idea that Cleopatra was black is ludicrous. She was Macedonian and Greek and probably had some semitic Egyptian in there as well.

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"The ancient Egyptians were not Arabs, although the present Arab-dominated Egyptian government would like you to believe that lie while Europeans prefer you to believe they were WASPs. BTW, the present government is oppressing the descendants of the original Egyptians today.

Egypt is in Africa. The original Egyptians were made up of black tribes from the southern regions and Asiatic tribes from the northern region. Their culture was African if you study their art and language.

Informative lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DD4nmyoss&t=1121s

Cleo's family was from Macedonia 300 years earlier. It's unrealistic to believe there was no racial-mixing with her family and the Egyptian people for three centuries. They weren't Nazis who believed in racial purity which wasn't a concept in that era.

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No, the ancient Egyptians were obviously not Arabs. But they were a Semitic people like the Hebrews and Arabs. We know this because their language was Semitic.

And they were not "made up of black tribes from the southern regions", any more than the Hebrews were. Again, we know this by linguistics, the ancient Egyptians were of the same ethnic stock as the Hebrews. Were the Hebrews black sub-Saharan Africans?

You seem to think that "Africa" means only sub-Saharan black. Merely because Egypt is in Africa, it does not make them black.

DNA tests from ancient Egyptian mummies show the Ancient Egyptians were closely related to the Arabs and Jews of the Levant, not sub-Saharan Africa.

Who were the ancient Egyptians genetically?

Black or white? Ancient Egyptian race mystery now solved ...

They found that the ancient Egyptians were most closely related to the peoples of the Near East, particularly from the Levant. This is the Eastern Mediterranean which today includes the countries of Turkey, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know/

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A DNA test was also attempted to determine the identity of the child. However, it was impossible to get an accurate reading since the bones had been handled too many times,[27] and the skull had been lost in Germany during World War II. Hilke Thür examined the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull,[28][29] which was reconstructed using computer technology by forensic anthropologist Caroline Wilkinson to show what the woman may have looked like.[30] Thür alleged that it shows signs of African ancestry mixed with classical Grecian features[16] – despite the fact that Boas, Gravlee, Bernard and Leonard, and others have demonstrated that skull measurements are not a reliable indicator of race,[31] and the measurements were jotted down in 1920 before modern forensic science took hold.


Mary Beard wrote a dissenting essay criticizing the findings, pointing out that, first, there is no surviving name on the tomb and that the claim the tomb is alleged to invoke the shape of the Pharos Lighthouse "doesn't add up"; second, the skull doesn't survive intact and the age of the skeleton is too young to be Arsinoë's (the bones said to be that of a 15-18 year old, with Arsinoë being around her mid twenties at her death); and third, since Cleopatra and Arsinoë were not known to have the same mother, "the ethnic argument goes largely out of the window."[4] Furthermore, craniometry as used by Thür to determine race is based in scientific racism that is now generally considered a pseudoscience that supported exploitation of groups of people to perpetuate racial oppression and distorted future views of the biological basis of race.[33]

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Realistically, a tomb would belong to a member of the royal family. You need to let go of your white supremacist ideology. It terrifies you to believe the truth that "Western Civilization" owes its beginning to black people in Africa.

Ancient Egyptian history:
https://www.youtube.com/live/S_DD4nmyoss?feature=share&t=1121

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Strawman. Scientists say it's unlikely that it's Arsinoë and they provide excellent arguments. Now stop the racist trolling and go away, D-feet.

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Tombs were built for royals. She's a royal. You're in denial that Egypt is in Africa.

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"Tombs were built for royals."

That's a complete lie. Anyone with money could be buried in a tomb. But are you saying Arsinoë was the only royal in ancient Egypt???

"You're in denial that Egypt is in Africa"

Another strawman. Try again, D-feet.

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That's Deliciousfeet? 🤣

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"... writing Netflix is trying to “promote the Afrocentric thinking … which includes slogans and writings aimed at distorting and erasing the Egyptian identity.”
..
.
Netflix replies: "What you talkin' bout' Willis"?

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How about figuring it out by ourselves from evidence?

Antique: Column-krater (bowl for mixing wine and water), ca. 350–320 B.C:
Obverse: artist painting a marble statue of Herakles http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_50.11.4.jpg
Reverse: Athena surrounded by other deities http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_50.11.4_av1.jpg

I don't know what the Egyptian scholars got out of this. But it seems to me that the skin color of each character, except for the marble statue, is as dark as the young assistant with curly hair on the left. (Read more: https://coffy22.tumblr.com/post/79150127347/africans-in-ancient-greek-art)

This bowl was made about 300 years before the time of Queen Cleopatra. So maybe the Greeks paled in 300 years,
if you believe that.

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I think we should all congratulate Jada Pinkett Smith and that idiot producer for managing to piss off an entire country for lying about history. They must think everyone who watches Netflix are very stupid, and they're about to find out otherwise.

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They're not?

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No, otherwise you wouldn't hear any complaints about it. People would just happily watch it like zombies and say nothing, and years from now people would be repeating the same lie, thinking it was actual history they're watching.

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The movie isn't bending to the white supremacist narrative. The majority of white people are not used to that.

Ditto Jesus Christ. Blond flowing hair, white skin and blue eyes. LOL! Waspy Jesus is more white supremacist nonsense. Jewish men in that era and place kept their DARK, CURLY hair short and weren't white.

"THE BLACK ROOTS OF EGYPT'S GLORY

Herodotus -- an eyewitness -- makes the most definitive statement when he compares the Egyptians, by virtue of their black skin and woolly hair, to the Colchians and Ethiopians. There are nearly a dozen other surviving references in Greek literature to the race and color of the Egyptians, from writers as diverse as Aeschylus, Aristotle and Strabo, and they unanimously confirm the remarks of Herodotus. The fact that the Egyptians were black and African was so completely self-evident to the ancient Greeks that it was a commonplace seldom worthy of special notice."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1987/10/11/the-black-roots-of-egypts-glory/1c3faf74-331c-4cc1-a6a0-3535fa3e098a/

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As stupid as this woke bullshit 'documetary' looks i disagree with banning entertaiment/media. Let it happen so people can laugh and ridicule.

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Hey, if they want to ban X from talking about Y medical consequences, then let's go hog wild and ban fake documentaries too.

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