Luke used the force before being trained...
Force grabbed the shit outta that lightsaber in the Wampa den! No one called him a Marty Stu back in 1980...
shareHe also fought Vader twice, defeating him the second time, despite never having lightsaber fight training and being far too old to train, as said by Yoda right there in the movies.
He also expertly flew that X-Wing against the Death Star, despite having no experience with that particular ship or having any real battle experience.
I think you need to rewatch the movies again. Yoda trained Luke after ANH and during ESB but said he wasn't ready yet to fight Vader.
In ANH it was mentioned that Luke was an expert pilot and could bullseye womp rats in his T-16.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper/Canon#cite_note-Episode_IV-3
T-16 skyhoppers were personal repulsorlift airspeeders manufactured by Incom Corporation, recognizable by its distinctive tri-wing design. It was a popular, high-performance airspeeder due to its stable and reliable transportation on almost any world, and thus provided many youths with their first flight training.[1] The T-16's trihedral design greatly resembled that of the Imperial Lambda-class T-4a shuttle.[5][6]
Luke Skywalker owned a T-16 skyhopper on Tatooine prior to the Battle of Yavin, as well as a small model that could be held in one's hands.[1] The controls were similar to Incom's T-65B X-wing starfighter, which greatly benefited Skywalker during the Battle of Yavin.[4]
Only Real Star Wars Fans(TM) know this information.
So how did Rey know how to fly the falcon, use the force and wield a lightsaber and defeat a sith again?
#RSWF
"I think you need to rewatch the movies again. Yoda trained Luke after ANH and during ESB but said he wasn't ready yet to fight Vader."
Yoda gave Luke ZERO lightsaber training. Also, Yoda said Luke wasn't ready for Vader, yet Yoda gave Luke NO further training after he left Dagobah.
As I said, Luke never received any lightsaber fight training. He was also, as said by Yoda, too old to train. NOTHING I said was incorrect.
Also, Luke still had no experience with the X-Wing by itself. The controls in a 700hp Ferrari are about the same as the controls in a Civic, but that doesn't mean a Civic driver is ready for a Ferrari! Also, as I said, Luke had negligible battle experience.
Again, NOTHING I said was incorrect.
KEEP IN MIND: I have no problem with any of these points and I don't care how little experience Luke has! I've never even bothered to nitpick it until people like you started tearing Rey apart like a rag doll after you all started parroting the "Mary Sue" cliche over and over.
You know why I don't care about this stuff? Because the entire Mary Sue concept is IRRELEVANT when you're talking about magical characters that don't have to conform to realistic limitations!!!!
Once you understand that, you'll see how foolish and sexist your entire argument is.
"So how did Rey know how to fly the falcon, use the force and wield a lightsaber and defeat a sith again?"
The man she worked for, who was also her caretaker, was the owner of the Falcon. He yells at her when she takes off with it. It's likely she already knew it inside and out.
She is shown to have suppressed memories of being at Luke's Jedi Academy when it was destroyed, or at least being highly aware of it, and subsequently being hidden away on Jakku. That implies she had training in her youth.
As for your last point, other than Kylo NOT being a Sith, Rey did not defeat him. The fight was ended. She also fought with a staff on Jakku and knew how to take care of herself.
Easy.
In the Disney Canon, Luke's lightsaber training takes place in a series of events, spanning from his first lesson with Obi-wan Kenobi, to the completion of his training with Master Yoda, and on from there. His lightsaber training also took place alongside his general Force training over this time, and occurred in the context of already being very naturally talented.
From the three movies (ANH, TESB and ROTJ), as well as The Weapon of a Jedi: A Luke Skywalker Adventure, Heir to the Jedi, Star Wars 2: Skywalker Strikes, Part II, and Star Wars Book I: Skywalker Strikes, amongst other sources, the general path seems to be:
A brief training session with Obi-wan Kenobi and a training remote onboard the Millenium Falcon, on the way to Alderaan, where he learned the basics of lightsaber form
On Devaron he found training remotes and used his previous training from Kenobi to practice and improve against the exercises the went through
Luke returned to Tatooine and found The Journals of Ben Kenobi that Kenobi had written and left for him, and he proceeded to study there from there onwards, including information about lightsaber combat
On Nar Shaddaa, he was caught by Grakkus and trained by a figure called the gamemaster in lightsaber combat
He presumably underwent lightsaber training on Dagobah with Yoda, though it is not shown on-screen in TESB
Note that all of this takes place before his duel with Vader on Bespin
Beyond this, as ancillary to lightsaber training itself, he:
Practiced privately during this time
Learned about how to construct a lightsaber based on studying Huulik's lightsaber and any information given to him by Obi-wan Kenobi, culminating in his construction of his own/new lightsaber on Tatooine right before rescuing Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt
Over this time, Luke also grew stronger in the Force, and engaged in several duels/combats, which presumably increased his skill and experience, such as:
A ghest on Rodia
Bounty hunters on Omereth
Stormtroopers on Devaro
A brief duel with Darth Vader on Cymoon I
Boba Fett on Tatooine
Stormtroopers, and Kongo the Disemboweler, a beast with lightsaber-resistant armor, in the arena in Grakkus' Palace
A second duel on Bespin with Darth Vader (where Vader wasn't trying to kill him, only defeat, subdue and turn him to the dark side)
The rescue of Han Solo on Tatooine, and all that that entailed (including holding off Boba Fett, again)
His final duel with Darth Vader, where he managed to defeat him
"Also, Luke still had no experience with the X-Wing by itself. The controls in a 700hp Ferrari are about the same as the controls in a Civic, but that doesn't mean a Civic driver is ready for a Ferrari! Also, as I said, Luke had negligible battle experience."
So you are saying the controls in a Ferrari are different than a Civic?
1. both have steering wheels
2. both have gas pedals
3. both have an accelerator pedal
4. both have a clutch pedel
5. both have 4 tires
6. both have engines
7. both have transmissions
8. both have a stick shift
The only difference is the horse power, analogy busted.
#RSWF
"So how did Rey know how to fly the falcon, use the force and wield a lightsaber and defeat a sith again?"
The man she worked for, who was also her caretaker, was the owner of the Falcon. He yells at her when she takes off with it. It's likely she already knew it inside and out"
Working on something and flying something is totally different. So you are saying an airplane mechanic is qualified to fly a 747 with no training? Yeah that makes sense, plus the Falcon was in moth balls as signified by the tarp covering it.
"She is shown to have suppressed memories of being at Luke's Jedi Academy when it was destroyed, or at least being highly aware of it, and subsequently being hidden away on Jakku. That implies she had training in her youth."
Having flashbacks and receiving actual training is different. Neither Luke or Anakin fought with a lightsaber in their first movie. Neither did they both win their first lightsaber battle. Kylo was trained by a sith lord and Kylo summoned the strength of another sith lord called Vader so that makes Kylo a sith. Plus the Sith always come in pairs, Master and student as mentioned in TFM.
"As for your last point, other than Kylo NOT being a Sith, Rey did not defeat him. The fight was ended. She also fought with a staff on Jakku and knew how to take care of herself."
Fighting with a staff is different than a lightsaber, one is stick and the other can lop off your hand. Plus it was never shown in TFA where Rey got her training and how she was able to use the Mary Sue power up to defeat Kylo. Also somehow she survived a fall from about 30 feet after being force pushed into a tree.
Dude you can try to squirm and double talk your way out of it all you want. The simple answer is you are a sexist dickhead...lol...just saying...
shareOh and I should add that Kylo was very obviously not trying to kill or defeat Rey. He said as much right there in the scene when he offered to train her.
It pays to pay attention.
RSWF(TM) always pay attention to the facts at hand.
shareThe problem with Disney Star Wars and Lucas Star Wars is that most everything is explained better in the Lucas movies. Luke and Anakin didn't start out strong and powerful. It shows their journey from Padawan to Jedi. Rey is basically a Jedi in TFA and fails to show her journey growing as a character. She is a self sufficient bad ass that can take care of herself. This is why she is labeled as a Mary Sue.
shareRey is a different character, she is older and she has lived on her own for most of her life. Anakin and Luke were both living with family and being cared for.
When you completely discard all context, yes maybe you can create the illusion of her being a Mary Sue.
I know your point, though: Twenty-something Rey who has had to live on her own for perhaps up to two decades.... She HAS TO BE less capable than a 10 year old slave child and an 18 year old moisture farmer.
She just has to be.... Because otherwise she's going to be labeled with a dismissive term that focuses on her gender.
All you spew in this conversation is lowbrow nonsense that demonstrates how dense you are and how weak your observation skills are, despite your double-jointed capacity of patting yourself on the back.
Also, it shows how petty you are that you'll do this in the context of STAR WARS, a pretty basic fantasy series with space ships.
It's transparent and obvious to everyone else in the world. The only ones blind to it are the ones doing it, and constantly making themselves look foolish.... The problem is that they convince themselves that their foolishness is just "other people refusing to accept" their sexist rants.
When Anakin boasted that he was the only human who had the reflexes to be a pod-race pilot, even though he was a little kid and the neurons that control reflexes and coordination weren't fully developed, he was probably using the Force to keep himself alive at high speeds. Certainly there was something Force-y about him, I forget exactly why Qui-Gon tested him for midichlorians but yes, he thought a totally untrained kid had Force abilities.
So that makes pre-training Force use canon.
And I would assume that Luke's not-such-a-bad-pilot-myself abilities had something to do with his inborn control of the Force, partly because it makes sense and partly because every fictional hero shows glimpses of extraordinary ability before he comes into his own. Like Harry Potter and the boa at the zoo.
Exactly, and apparently the argument by the Mary Sue regime is that Rey in her 20's apparently has to be less capable than a 10 year old slave boy.
What is very inconvenient for the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument is how many precedents were already set with Force capability making a character into a virtuoso of sorts.
Even the concept of applying the Mary Sue argument to a character with magical abilities is a failure in itself, though.
Yeah well Mary-Sue-ism is built into the Star Wars franchise, what is Luke but a superbly well-done Marty-Sam? One who's so perfect that he goes beyond being the embodiment of one man's fantasies, and becomes the embodiment of the fantasies of millions?
Anyone who says that Rey is a Sue and Luke is not doesn't understand what a Mary-Sue really is.
I don't think discussion is their intent anyway, I think it's just all about man-children who are afraid of capable females.
shareOut of curiosity, are you a fan of the Resident Evil movies?
shareNope
shareThat's strange because the Resident Evil movies have a capable female as the hero of the franchise. Are you afraid of capable women?
shareThat might be the stupidest post I've seen yet on this site.
shareYeah, claiming someone is a misogynist simply because they don't like a certain movie with a female lead is really stupid, huh?
shareLOl awesome. I wish I would have thought of that.
It's very easy to trip these people up, although they never learn their lesson.
shareWell yeah, any argument based in claims sexism is stupid to begin with. Because it is not an argument it is a ad hominem. The blindness by ideology in this topic is both fascinating and frustrating. Because they never try to come up with anything new to defend the criticism. IT is always "but Luke too" and "you all just man-child scared of a strong female lead". That is is it, that is the entire bases of their support for a rather obvious poorly developed character.
Living in denial, you can't comprehend what's beyond your nose. Trolls are like that.
shareYou use the sex of a character as reason for defending the character alone from criticism. This means you are focused on the sex of the character and not on any traits or development outside of that. Also you are so insecure about the sex of the character being female you overcompensate by trying to write off said criticism as trolling because deep down inside you think women are inherently weaker and need your defense. You sir are the sexist in this argument.
shareLiking or disliking TFA was not the subject. I was specifying people who bash Rey as a Mary Sue. That's obvious by READING the posts.
You're not too bright, AP. LOL
Thanks for proving my point about you people never learning.
shareSo you can't even admit that you responded to a discussion about Rey as a Mary Sue, and not a discussion about the quality of The Force Awakens.
Yeah, you are very dense. It's no wonder you're probably a sexist man-child with no spine.
Rey being a Mary Sue is one of the reasons why Force Awakens is a low quality movie. It goes hand in hand. So yes, you are giving blanket statements to people who don't like the movie you like and you're looking petty as hell. I mean, all I had to do was call you out on your bullshit and you were already throwing the word sexist around. It's like you are physically incapable of disagreeing with anyone without calling them a sexist.
Criticizing a Mary Sue for being a Mary Sue has nothing to do with misogyny. Men can be Mary Sues just as well. The term came form an old Star Trek fanfic where a character named Mary Sue Picard was a poorly written "new" character who out did all other characters in everything and had no character flaw. As has been proven to you multiple times, Anakin Skywalker was labeled a Mary Sue as well.
Mila Jovovich's character in the Resident Evil movies has had some of the same criticism as Rey (OP in some of the movies, too perfect, and takes away from the rest of the fan-favorite RE characters), which was a reason why I brought those movies up in particular.
So no, you've not learned your lesson. In the meantime, I'll let my wife know I hate women.
"what is Luke but a superbly well-done Marty-Sam? One who's so perfect that he goes beyond being the embodiment of one man's fantasies, and becomes the embodiment of the fantasies of millions?"
you mean the pathetic farm boy that gets mocked and his ass kicked for the entire first 2 films is the embodiment of man's fantasies? How do you all just ignore the films to push your narrative?
Yup. He spent two movies failing in different ways and needing to be saved by Han Solo enough times that it becomes a bit of a running gag in the series. Him blowing up the Deathstar was the only real victory he had until the third movie.
shareIf you actually think about it those are his only 2 'wins' and each is immediately followed by a defeat. After blowing up the death star the next time we see luke is getting nearly killed by a snow creature. Right after his Vader win he is nearly killed easily by the emperor. The only total win he had was rescuing Han but even then he was heavily assisted by both Lando, Chewie, R2 and Leia.
Now let us compare that with Rey's wins in her first film:
1. rescues BB-8 on her own without the other guy even putting up a fight.
2. successful in defending herself from the 2 attackers trying to steal BB-8.
3. KNocks Finn out and questions him.
4. Escapes the tie fighter attack in the Millenium Falcoln nearly totally by herself, even after Finn's turret locks up, no problem she just pulls a stunt maneuver and perfectly lines the shot up for him.
5. Successful saves Finn from the squid creator attack. Notice how each one of her mess ups are followed by a win. Directly contrasting Luke who's victories are immediately followed by defeat.
6. Successfully fends off Kylo's mind probe.
7. Successfully mind tricks the stormtrooper and escapes capture on her own.
8. Out force pulls Kylo for the lightsaber.
9. completely defeats Kylo in follow up saber battle.
10. Is given the millenium falcoln and is victorious in her mission to find Luke. Again with almost no effort.
so she has literally 5 times as many victories in her first film than Luke has in the entire OT. But some think it is applicable to compare them? crazy.
Yeah, her capture by Kylo after the cantina scene is the only time when she's ever really in trouble but even then, she ends up saving herself.
By comparison, in ANH...
Luke's first fight involved him getting knocked out by a sandperson and he then had to be saved by Obi-Wan.
Luke has to be saved by Obi-Wan in the cantina.
The next time he is in action, he has to hide himself on the Deathstar upon Obi-Wan's orders.
He hatches a plan to save Leia and kills some Stormtroopers, but he did so alongside Han and Chewie.
More Stormtroopers catch up to them and it's revealed that Luke's plan was pretty shitty. Leia takes it upon herself to save everyone.
Luke is then strangled by the creature in the trash compactor. Leia and Han save him form the creature and R2-D2 and C-3PO turn off the compactor.
Han has to create a diversion so that Luke and Leia can escape. Luke accidentally shoots the controls for the bridge and they are forced to swing across a chasm.
Obi-Wan then sacrifices himself so that all the heroes can get on the Falcon and escape.
Luke blasts some TIE fighters, but again, it's alongside Han while Chewie pilots.
During the run on the Deathstar, Vader nearly kills Luke, but Han and Chewie show up to save him while also being the ones who defeat Vader in the first episode.
His only win comes when he blows up the Deathstar but only does so when Obi-Wan has him recall his training.
What the hell. might as well do ESB too.
The movie starts with a wompa taking him by surprise and capturing him.
Luke frees himself, but then succumbs to the icy cold wilderness of Hoth, so Han Solo has to rescue him.
His fight in Hoth is pretty badass, though, granted. Yet, his ship does get shot down at one point.
He then spends some time with Yoda, failing at almost every task while the other heroes get into trouble in Cloud City.
Luke then shows up for the final battle, gets his arm chopped off and nearly falls to his death. The other heroes have to save him just before the end credits.
"Exactly, and apparently the argument by the Mary Sue regime is that Rey in her 20's apparently has to be less capable than a 10 year old slave boy."
who the hell here is criticizing Rey but giving Anakin a pass? No one that i have seen.
"Even the concept of applying the Mary Sue argument to a character with magical abilities is a failure in itself, though."
Do you just not understand what a Mary Sue is? Even magical abilities run off a magic system within the story. If a character (whether male or female) breaks the magic system it hurts the story. If Rey was a male he would be just as bad a character.
"who the hell here is criticizing Rey but giving Anakin a pass?"
Oh you mean there was a movement for TWO STRAIGHT YEARS with people tearing apart Anakin and calling him a Mary Stu? OH NO WAIT, THAT NEVER ****ING HAPPENED.
Also, THE POINT is that Anakin's abilities are CANON. YOU DO REALIZE THE STAR WARS FANBASE DOES NOT OWN STAR WARS AND DOES NOT MAKE ALL CREATIVE DECISIONS, RIGHT?
Do you just not understand what a Mary Sue is? Even magical abilities run off a magic system within the story.
If the magic system is very strictly defined, that's one thing, but that's not Star Wars.
Mary Sue is ACTUALLY about how realistic a character is, in terms of human abilities. Here, let me clue you in, since you can't seem to comprehend. This is a quick example conversation:
"This Rey character is so unrealistic. She's a Mary Sue."
"Well, she has magic powers. Of course she's unrealistic."
"Oh, yeah."
However, the ENTIRE POINT of every comparison to Luke is to demonstrate that Rey doesn't even break the known limits because she's equivalent to everything Luke did. To go even further with that point, LUKE WAS EVEN MORE MIRACULOUS.
You just can't accept that because Rey is female, so you have to bash her constantly.
Also, you and the other Rey Trolls are getting fed too much by me, I don't really want to talk to any of you any more because it's just a waste of time and you guys all prove yourself to be pretty light in the skull over and over again.
Plus, you were also the guy who made that religion-baiting topic, so yes I KNOW you are a troll.
That means it's inherently a waste of time to even talk to you. There seems to be a small invasion of you guys recently, and you all clearly band together pretty tightly.
I think it's about time to start using the MC ignore list so I can avoid even the temptation of feeding you guys and going on these time-wasting trips with people who aren't actually interested in the discussions they're starting.
Cheers!
"Mary Sue is ACTUALLY about how realistic a character is, in terms of human abilities. Here, let me clue you in, since you can't seem to comprehend. This is a quick example conversation:"
Given the term was based on a satirical half human half Vulcan character out of a Star Trek fan fic I am going to go ahead and close this out with, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
I am confused, didn't we all complain about Anakin being OP and terrible in the PT? I know I did and most others did? Why are you bringing up a terrible character that was viciously criticized to compare to another character that is being not nearly as universally criticized?
Also I thought the films implied perfectly clearly that there was a difference between dormant passive force powers, like reflexes and intuition, and active force abilities, like force pull and mind trick. The film lays out as clear as can be one requires training to use the other is innate.