Infact killing off Littlefinger was fanservice. the bittersweet ending would have been that they all lost and LF became King something that he plotted from the beginning and the whole show is based on his plan.
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the bittersweet ending would have been that they all lost and LF became King something that he plotted from the beginning and the whole show is based on his plan.
LF becomes king and jon snow rebuilds winterfell together with sansa and arya. everyone else has been lost.
shareThat Littlefinger would actually make a pretty good king?
No, really, if he'd lived and won, he'd be a perfectly decent king. He understands economics and the process of government, and he'd work to make the nation prosperous and by implication peaceful, if only to reinforce his own position. And he wouldn't start wars if he could avoid it, he usually has better ways of taking out his enemies. And he may be soulless but he's not cruel or crazy, you wouldn't want to be on his enemies list or in a predicament that requires due process, but he's bright and understood how governing works and Westeros has done a lot worse.
So really, you don't have to be a good person to be a good ruler. Look at Tywin Lannister.
Westeros has certainly had worse rulers than the one you describe. The Mad King of course, Joffrey and Cersei…
And Littlefinger’s not crazy, but I have to disagree with him not being cruel.
He handed Ros over to Joffrey so that he has someone to kill in sport. He handed Sansa over to Ramsey. To me, both actions were pretty cruel, done because he thought that he’ll gain some sort of advantage from it.
He ordered to kill Whatwashisnameagain, the fat guy who helped Sansa escape from the Purple Wedding, without a second thought. Granted, that was necessary to protect his schemes, but to stop at nothing for your own sake doesn’t make you a good ruler IMO.
It’ll sure make you a _successful_ leader in the sense that you’ll get what you want.
As I’ve said above, there sure were worse kings.
But that Littlefinger would’ve been a »pretty good« king – I’m afraid I don’t share that opinion. But I’m ready to agree that we disagree here. (Especially now, because it’s rather later over here and I’m tired… ;-) )
Oh he was ruthless and a genuine sociopath, IMHO, but he wasn't someone who enjoyed the suffering of others or who killed or tortured for fun, the way Joffrey and Ramsay did.
He killed and tortured for business reasons!
Which is horrible, but at least you know where you are likely to stand if you're under his power, unlike Ramsay, Joffrey, or Euron, who kill for fun or no reason at all. He turned Ros over to Joffrey because she gave information to Varys, and by doing so he gained more power over his operatives and the king. He killed Dondas because he needed his corpse to finish staging the regicide, which put Sansa entirely in his power and successfully covered his tracks. He's utterly ruthless and would kill anyone who crossed him or got in his way or just fell under suspicion without a second thought, but other than that he'd probably leave most of his subjects alone, because if he killed them all they wouldn't spend money at his brothels. He's ruthless rather than psychotic, sociopathic but intelligent and competent at governance, so he probably would have been above average as a ruler.
I don't think much of feudal monarchs, you see.
He killed and tortured for business reasons!
Actually, if you agree with Sansa's assertion that Littlefinger basically started the War of Five Kings with a series of lies and murders, he's probably responsible for more deaths than Danerys is. And that's if you count all the deaths related to her days with the Dothraki, the conquest of Slaver's Bay, and the invasion of Westeros. The War of Five Kings covered a tremendous amount of ground, involved tens of thousands of soldiers, and went on for years - a lot longer than anything Dany ever started.
Interesting that I doubt either one of them has ever killed anyone with their own hands. And I don't think I've ever seen Danerys even touch a weapon.
One more thing came to my mind about the good kings/bad kings topic…
We all know that Robert Baratheon was a bad ruler.
But it seems to me that under his rule, the people of Westeros had a good time. As far as I remember, he started no wars – there was the Greyjoy Rebellion but that was hardly Robert’s fault. The people apparently could live a quiet, calm, peaceful life… or have there ever been hints that it was different? I surely can’t remember any…
Probably because Robert didn’t rule at all, but left most decisions to the small counsil, except when he overruled them to spend much more money than they advised. This of course wasn’t very good and _might_ have lead to big problems for all the kingdoms (and thus, all the people) at some point in the future if he had continued to rule.
But up to the end of his life, things seemed to run quite well.
So sometimes, bad rulers can be good for the people. *laugh*
Or am I forgetting something? Was there any hint that Robert’s rule was bad from the common people’s point of view?
People have said that Robert was a bad king, but IMHO he only ever did two things wrong: He let the crown get into massive debt, and he failed to disinherit Joffrey or smother him in his cradle. Other than that, he didn't start pointless wars and he let the smallfolk get on with leading their lives, and the smart people do the actual governing.
He must have been a very popular king, he didn't make trouble for people and half the people in the kingdom must have had a drink with him at one time or another.
I don't think it's fan service, I think Jon becoming king has been the heart of the story all along.
We even had a broad hint back in season 2, remember Dany's vision of SNOW on the IRON THRONE?
Yes, but she had that vision at the House of the Undying which is the Warlocks’ place.
To quote Jon from last episode:
"Has it occurred to you [it] might not have been a reliable source of information?"
;-)
For five years now, I've been saying "Snow on the throne, geddit???", and after five years we find out he's the rightful heir to the iron throne. Ya think I could have been onto something there?
I didn’t say you’re wrong.
I’m just saying that the writers _might_ have misguided us deliberately. They could later always say: »Oooh, that vision back then… that was created by the Warlocks and thus, a fake«, and that would even be plausible.
But on the other hand, it would of course be just as plausible if they’d say: »Hey, you didn’t expect Jon to end up on the Iron Throne? Why do you think we fed you that vision?«
Well, the whole sequence seemed like so much fun for the writers that it rang "true", so to speak. We shall see.
Wanna hear my theory about Miri Maz Duur's prophecy, which included "...when mountains crumble and blow in the wind like leaves..."? Betcha when someone kills The Mountain, he crumbles to dust and the bits blow away in the wind
Given his current condition, that might well be…
And if another part of the prophecy comes true and the seas go dry... Euron and his Ironborn are in deep shit.
shareAlthough I _wish_ that Euron gets into trouble…
… I guess this could refer to the Dorthraki Sea.
I have no doubt that Euron will get into trouble, Theon has no other reason for staying the in story. But yeah, it could refer to the Dothraki Sea of Grass, or maybe the seas freezing over at the command of the NK, although that'd be a stretch.
I have absolutely no clue how the "sun rise in the west and set in the east" thing can happen. None.
Actually, IIRC, Essos does have its version of White Walkers in the books. Something about "dead things in the grass." But I honestly don't remember much.
shareLittle Finger had too little character development to be king. The night king would be a great twist. All of this build up for the battle of the iron throne to be Jon and Dany teaming up and they both eventually lose only so that the night king, after all the warnings and pleading by Jon t destroy him, eventually won.
shareSo I guess the only thing that wouldn't be fan service would be Euron becoming King after he marries Cersei, or perhaps the Night King wins and all of Westeros becomes a frozen wasteland.
It all depends what George told Double D when they did their deal, and he sent them pointers on what the story looks like beyond A Dance with Dragons. If he said "I want a happy ending" then they'll aim for that, if he wants a bittersweet ending--likely, then they'll aim for that, if he wants an apocalyptic ending--then they'll do that.
Essos being the hope for mankind would make for some engaging TV, and the Iron Throne covered in snow and the roof destroyed just like in Daenerys & Bran's visions would be perfect.
GRRM has definitely stated somewhere that it will be a bittersweet ending. Not happy, not apocalyptic.
shareAnyone becoming King is too much fan service...(as if what fans want is such a bad thing)..George RR Martin hates war and his series seems to be a statement to the tragedy that war brings.
All the GOT political maneuvering and back stabbing...and ultimate mighty losses and sacrifices...simply proves that anyone that thirst for power to the extreme of sacrificing everything and everything for power is not worthy to sit on the throne. It makes so much of it seem pretty petty really. And LittleFinger was the very definition of power hungry. He just used manipulation instead of force.
He was a consummate liar and completely self involved. So to me a sociopath such as Littlefiner would not be a good leader despite his intelligence. The time for it all to catch up with him was ripe.
To that aim Jon Snow is probably the most worthy(outside of being the right heir) because all he really cares about are the people and doing what is right by them. He doesn't care about the power or control or being king.
But I don't think the Iron throne will even exist as it once existed. So many houses have been obliterated; so many losses.. and it's not done yet. What will be left when the dust settles will likely not be one single ruler over 7 Kingdoms and no Iron Throne. But something entirely new and different.
It will be bittersweet. That doesn't mean apocalyptic and that doesn't mean happily ever after.
It's impossible to guess who will be King or Queen because I don't believe there will be a King or Queen. But there will be enough of humanity left to start over and I don't think being heir or rightful bloodlines will be the deciding factor of whoever leads.
Coming to think of it… all major characters dead, but the White Walkers defeated… and with all the great houses destroyed, the people of Westeros have to try something new, and we see the birth of democracy…
… an ending like that would certainly fit the term »bittersweet« quite well to me.