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A simplified explanation of the necessity for an electoral system for people who pretend not to understand it


Example: Pretend both Grandfather's of the same family had 5 kids,all with their own families. Now, those 5 kids families have randomly 5,4,3,2 and 1 children amongst them.Now pretend that only one of the Grandfathers get a bunch of money every year if they can get the most votes from the families, it doesn't matter which. The grandfathers can promise anything they want to them,as long as they get enough votes to receive the annual money. How often do you think either Grandparents would bother trying to appeal to the families with 1,2 or 3 kids? Now, if the family's with 1,2 or 3 kids each had a VALUE of votes equal to the larger families, they would most certainly get the same amount of attention that the bigger families get, because despite being smaller,they need help from Grandpa too.
This is why we have an electoral system, because farmers,ranchers,loggers and the rest of middle America don't want to be and shouldn't be ignored by Grandpa,just because they have small familes.

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If Trump lost the electoral college but got the majority of votes, would you want him to be President?

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No. I didn't want George W to win,and Al got more votes than him,but it's the right call.

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There is no perfect person that can be President because no matter who it is half the country will hate and loathe that person. Its a vicious cycle of back and forth between the two parties.

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I'm not saying that at all, in fact I can't see how you came to that conclusion.

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I think its a great conclusion. The 2 party system is dead.

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The conclusion that I think Hilary should have won is what I was referring to. And I also think the 2 party system needs to die,and it's exactly why Trump won, because despite running as one, he isn't a republican.

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I think he won because most people didn't want another Clinton. As far as Trump being a Rep. or not is debatable. I think for the most part he is conservative.

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depends on your definition of "conservative".

i would rather say that he is a neo-republican, but as for conservative values i don't see much there.

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And for the record, I'm not a trump supporter. I'm a supporter of what's best for America,and in this election,this was the better call. That isn't saying he's perfect by any stretch.

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So "what" in your estimation is the "better call"? He's stripped all the regulatory protocols from all agencies in charge of health and human services, EPA, Consumer Rights, he wants to drill in national parks once set aside for the people by Obama. Nothing of his "better calls" is about anything other than undoing Obama's legacy. Ergo given Trump's racist leanings means and to be blunt "Take away all that Ni__er did." And if you say it wasn't, I'll call foul because nothing about what his "better call" has done is in any way good for America. He's given ginormous tax breaks to himself, his family and people like The Mercers, The Kochs, etc. In the meantime he's made it so that the normal everyday Joe/Jane will have to work instead of two jobs to keep their homes, they'll now have to work four jobs all because he has to have more money. He's not even a good business man. He has filed for bankruptcy 11 times, flip flopped on his political affiliation, and the coup-de-grace is his collusion with Russia because after no other banks would lend to him, he went to Russia. Now one of the most dangerous Russian leaders since Stalin owns Trump. So is that the "better call" than keeping alliances and all the safeguards Obama had for the American People and electing Hillary Clinton? Is she perfect? No. But she has experience and respect from allies. MAGA means nothing. Just a catch phrase that hooked a bunch of half wits who don't know they've just been conned.

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Yawn. To rediculous to reply to.

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You have no clue what you're talking about.

The electoral college encourages pandering to swing states and areas with a lot of electoral votes, which is what happens. It doesn't address the issue you're discussing at all.

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"Pandering to swing States" translates to "appealing to states that would normally get overlooked". Remain clueless if you want,but my comparison is spot on.

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Tons of areas get overlooked, as it is, BECAUSE of the electoral college. Where's your excuse for that???

Secondly, campaigning is just campaigning, it doesn't directly benefit people. Comparing it to giving away "a bunch of money" is so disingenuous.

Right there are two extreme flaws with your argument. The first flaw shows that your argument is backward, and the second shows that your argument is being presented with a "bait" that doesn't exist in reality.

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You don't think presidential candidates bait with promises? I never said they get fulfilled,but that doesn't make it less true that it happens.

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I also must say, I think it's hilarious that you think campaigning is more important than the value of peoples' votes.

I live in California. Why is the vote of a person in a sparsely populated, rural state worth nearly FOUR TIMES the value of my vote?

Your answer: Because we want to discourage candidates from campaigning in big cities once every four years.

So, democracy must be artificially taken out of balance for literally no good reason at all. Campaigning is, for some reason, HUGELY important to you.

But again: Most of the country gets overlooked during campaigning, and that's BECAUSE of the electoral college. The attention all goes to swing states, and areas where they have the most electoral votes with the smallest populations.

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Campaigning is a part of candidates expressing what their plans are for our countries future. Whether or not they live up to that can't be determined until they are elected.

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I asked twice for you to explain the electoral discrepancies I brought up and both times you ignored them just to repeat crap about campaign promises, which is irrelevant.

Yet you made this topic to defend the electoral college? Why make a topic you can't back up AT ALL?

Here let me shoot down your OP too: The family with 3 members needs only three-fifths the help that the 5 member family needs. Each individual family member gets the help they need, and it is equal for each individual.

In your OP, the electoral college would give the 3 member family benefits of a 6 member family, and the 5 member family would get the benefits of a 2.5 member family. Inflation and deflation of values.

See? You had no clue what you were talking about. Ah but because I called you out long ago for claiming I was a liar simply because you didn't like how I answered one question, I'm probably still on your ignore list.

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Also, your example is completely flawed. You're contrasting the current electoral system with a "balanced" electoral system.

If there was no electoral system at all, no votes based on areas, then everything you're talking about would be irrelevant. A per-person voting system would remove the incentive to campaign in specific areas.

Also, your concept of "ignored" is silly. All you're talking about is where politicians travel to during campaigning, where they make empty promises.

The addressing of actual local needs is done at the state and county and city level. Presidential candidates aren't out there giving away "a bunch of money," they aren't giving away anything. They are just seeking attention from swing states and looking for the highest concentration of electoral votes.

Your analogy here is absolutely insane, literally.

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a per person voting system would obviously encourage spending the most time campaigning densely populated areas.Unless you are "literally" stupid, it's an easy concept to grasp.

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Yet again: How does campaigning directly benefit people? How is it comparable to giving away "a bunch of money"?

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Read it again ,I said the Grandfathers get the money, which is the metaphor for the office,power,and yes money. I never said the families get it.

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Okay, well I think the example in your OP makes more sense to you than it actually makes sense. I no longer see any point to the example.

Basically you're saying that politicians will campaign in areas that are most pivotal to their campaign, a self-serving thing.

You want this self-serving activity to be taken to people who would otherwise be overlooked. There's no reason given for why this is so important, because it's just campaigning.

Campaigning in major cities is a "no-no" to you, because of some illusory benefit that comes from self-serving campaigns.

Thus, you want campaigning taken to areas that would normally be overlooked.

Then, your entire point is destroyed because the electoral college specifically encourages campaigning in the few states that swing between parties, and the few states that have the most electoral votes with the smallest populations.

All the sparsely-populated areas in "non-swing-states" still get overlooked during campaigning. MOST of the country gets overlooked during campaigning.

So as you can see, the electoral college doesn't solve anything about your argument. Your argument could be used against the electoral college even more effectively than it could be used FOR the electoral college.

Secondly, you never demonstrated any reason why it's so important for any area to "receive" campaigning during the Presidential race every four years.

Nothing about your argument actually makes any sense.

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Campaigning is an equivalent to promises and plans made to the people. Campaigning itself is just words,but we obviously need something to base our decisions on. You can feel free to be obtuse on this matter,but I have no doubt you see the relevance. My comparison is crude one for sure,but obviously needed to be even cruder for folks like you to grasp. I'm sure your feigning a lack of comprehension,just because it doesn't align with your particularly sensibilities.

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The Electoral College reflects the same political compromise found in Article I of the Constitution. It's nothing more or less than a means of balancing the interests of proportional representation with the principles of federalism and the co-sovereignty of the states. Without it, there would not have been a "United States of America" in the first place.

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I believe James Madison saw it the most clearly. His fear was a faction could grow to encompass more than 50 percent of the population, at which point it could “sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens.”

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If a faction grew to more than 50 percent of the population, it would be a controlling interest, and no electoral college would stop that.

A faction THAT organized would just distribute itself in sparsely populated areas if it wanted to elect a national leader that furthered its interests. It would take advantage of the system, and the electoral college would HELP it by inflating the votes of its members.

Hmm.... Sort of like what racists do. Like the racists who absolutely love Donald Trump and have been celebrating his presidency. Donald literally campaigned on a racist promise to build a meaningless, symbolic wall to keep Mexicans out (even though most illegal immigrants come here legally at first).

One CANNOT combat the threat of political manipulation by instituting political manipulation. It's just like trying to balance an economy with institutionalized economic manipulation.

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Typical liberal. If you can't win an argument call the other side a racist. Your pathetic.

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And liberals, a faction, did encompass more than 50% of the vote, but thankfully the electoral college prevented their wish from becoming a reality. Thanks for proving my point. I'm done with you.

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Frogarama- HOW are you an illegal immigrant if you came here "legally" at first?

I'll tell you, he arrives on a visa. IF he overstay his visa, he's here ILLEGALLY. Just because he entered on a tourist or work visa, that does NOT give him "squatter's rights." Once his visa expires, he is bound by law to get OUT! Just because he doesn't get caught or is here "long enough" doesn't mean that he has an automatic "right" to citizenship.
(If I rob a bank and don't get caught, is the money legally mine?)

Get your illegal a@@ in line behind others who have come here legally, paid lawyers and legal fees, wait patiently for years, and jump through all the legal hoops to become citizens.

I am so sick to death of leftardos who label those of us who want our laws obeyed as "racist". Stick it in your ear!

And if a wall is "meaningless and symbolic", then why do you folks fear it? I would prefer an electrified fence with armed border guards stationed every half mile.
Just because someone can successfully sneak into a country that doesn't give him the right to stay.

You are so quick to vomit on American laws, why not take a moment to research Mexico's laws regarding illegals? Illegal entry into Mexico is punishable by two years imprisonment. A return "visit" will get you TEN years in prison.

Mexicans are able to make citizens' arrests of illegals and turn them into the authorities. So different from our sickening sanctuary cities where the AUTHORITIES get in trouble for enforcing the law!
"Outsiders" must enhance Mexico's economic and national interests and they must be healthy. They have to show economic independence and provide for their own health care.

in Mexico there is no snotty flag waving with signs that read, "No humans are illegal" or "We all have rights". In Mexico, political speech is banned for non-citizens.

Why do you come to the defense of people who are here illegally? Dems need more voters?

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PJ, don't sweat it.

You are talking to a person who doesn't understand men are in the minority within the US.

They don't understand what majority means.

They think that the majority of people (Women) are somehow oppressed within the US.

You are wasting precious moments on this Earth trying to convert someone like that into thinking straight.

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Thanks, Reality, I try to do the impossible, explaining reality to people who are intent on "racist" labeling when we just want our laws obeyed!

It's snowing today and I am stuck inside and I just go off!! LOL

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Have a nice whisky or cup of tea and release this fool from your grip - they are not worth it.

Get to enjoying yourself and the community that you love.

See a movie!

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Just got done shoveling about a ton of snow! I think I will watch a movie or some old TV show and have a cup of hot chocolate!

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After that I think you deserve it!

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Well, that would be Grandpa's choice not trying to appeal to the families with one, two, or three kids. And he will reap the consequences for doing so. He may come within 1 vote of the other grandpa (who did choose to appeal to each family) and may lose out by that one vote.

It's about choice - the candidate's choice, and the voter's choice. It should not be about electoral colleges. That's antiquated.

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You can argue that the electoral college is necessary when it treats all parties relatively equally, but when it clearly gives one party an advantage over another, that is when it either needs to be done away with or revamped. Right now, there is absolutely no reason to keep the electoral college the way it is. I would even say it's corrupt to do so.

The problem isn't even the electoral college. The problem is 'winner takes all' despite never truly winning them all. A possible fix could be to divide every state by their electoral votes, and then give each candidate the same percentage of electoral votes that they got in total votes. You could even divide it unevenly in close battles like in Michigan. Instead of dividing Michigan's 16 EVs to give Trump and Hillary 8, Trump could get 9 (because he won) and Hillary 7.

You might think that would remove the purpose of the Electoral College. Well, you'd be wrong. The purpose of the EC is to give smaller states more power by having less people equal one electoral vote compared to larger states. That would still remain the case. Small states would still have a smaller amount of people equaling an electoral vote. The major difference is that it would no longer be winner takes all.

Right now, winner takes all is what is killing democracy. It's bad in the general election, and it's even worse in primaries. Primaries are absolutely disgusting right now. And on top of it, the democrats made it worse with their stupid system of superdelegates.

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It may need to be revised,but it is still needed.

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right now gradpa lied to all of them and even though your preferred system is in place, he fucked them all no matter if they have 1 or 200 children, unless they are filthy rich.

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Trump has already fulfilled more campaign promises than most Presidents do,despite an unreasonable resistance from the Democrats. Don't let your immature bitterness blind you to the truth.

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"This is why we have an electoral system..."
No it's not. You don't know history. It was a flawed compromise to appease the states that depended on slavery.

"...don't want to be and shouldn't be ignored"
Newsflash! Most of America - large cities and small towns - are ignored because presidential candidates concentrate their campaigns on the few swing states. Two-thirds of the campaigning in 2016 was limited to 6 swing states. For instance, swing state Florida had 71 campaign events, Alabama had 0, Idaho had 0, Kansas had 0, New York had 0, Louisiana had 0, New Jersey had 0, swing state Ohio had 48, Kentucky had 0, Montana had 0, California had 1... you see where I'm going with this. Your theory doesn't hold water. Link to total state list:
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/campaign-events-2016

"How often do you think either Grandparents would bother trying to appeal to the families with 1,2 or 3 kids?"
Your example sux. The reason is because each kid doesn't have one equal vote. The family with 1 kid gets 5 votes. The family with 5 kids only gets 1 vote.
Then to make it more of a confusing mess, two families always vote for grandfather, but two families always vote against him making it an equal vote. One swing (state) family votes either way so grandfather can ignore the four families who always vote a certain way and concentrate most of his attention on swing(state) family.

I wish people like yourself would stop rationalizing inequality. For instance, a person in Wisconsin has 4 votes per 1 vote in New York. To make it worst, people in New York receive less in Federal dollars than someone in Wisconsin.

Unequal vote:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/11/presidential_election_a_map_showing_the_vote_power_of_all_50_states.html

Unequal federal tax distribution:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/

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Your knowledge of history is obviously limited to repeating talking points you've heard somewhere else. I already posted a quote from James Madison that shows this was definitely a concern of theirs.

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You mean slave owner James Madison? You must come from a freeloader state that my taxes are supporting. Obviously, you're used to receiving more than you have a right to. One vote per person. Period.

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This is why people with your lower intellect don't make the laws. Did you even bother reading the quote. I know, liberals assume everyone that doesn't agree with them is racist. That card must get hot from playing it so much.

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When a person can't defend their position, they resort to insults. You haven't presented one counter argument to any of my positions re: the electoral college voting system vs. the popular vote.

You also stated that the electoral college voting system exists to allow ranchers, etc. a fair vote which I said was nonsense since it's origin is based in slavery - not cattle drives.

Furthermore, you have incorrectly made the assumption that politicians represent the common person which is nonsense. Most people, including your ranchers, etc. were against the tax giveaway to the rich. That didn't matter because one day after it was signed, Paul Ryan received $500,000 from the Koch brothers. Common folk be damned! Whoever you vote for has been bought by lobbyists and large corporations. But don't let that stop you from holding your prejudiced views against "liberals" who are in the same sinking boat that you're in. Continue to allow your silly prejudice to divide us so that we continue to suffer together while the rich rob us blind. How easily manipulated you are!

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You have replied with nothing but non sequiturs , and inferences about my statements I didn't make in my op. You don't want to have a discussion,you want to be right, even if it means arguing semantics, instead of the relevant issues.

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I must be right since you still have not presented any rebuttal.

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