MovieChat Forums > Whoopi Goldberg Discussion > Are Jewish people a RACE or RELIGION? ...

Are Jewish people a RACE or RELIGION? And what about Catholics?

posted 2 years ago by davebuffalo (3026)
38 replies | jump to latest

My first thought about this controversy is to call her an idiot. She doesn't deserve to be in front of a microphone, and people who listen to her are idiots themselves.

But it did get me thinking.

I know Hitler most certainly thought of Jews as a "race", and was one of the biggest racists in history. And for that reason, the Holocaust was definitely "about race". The current American definition of "racism" doesn't typically include Jews, so in a very narrow sense, I can see Whoopi's point. (But please don't tell anyone!). The European definition of RACISM has always been more broad, to include {blacks, gypsies, Turks, Jews, Muslims, etc.}.

But Catholics are part of a "religion". Why then are Jews considered a "race", while Catholics are "only" a religion?

Is it more about having genetic ties to Israel?

[–] mtxmind (3017) 2 years ago

Some Jews do consider themselves as a "race", but actually I think the more proper term would be an "ethnicity ".

[–] davebuffalo (3026) 2 years ago

You are intelligent, and I appreciate your commentary. I had to visit Google University:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/race-ethnicity#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRace%E2%80%9D%20is%20usually%20associated%20with,and%20characterize%20seemingly%20distinct%20populations.

So "racism" and "race" are indeed slippery and controversial terms, and vary across cultures and geographies. And then we have the newer term "Ethnic Cleansing", as in Bosnia. Maybe that term fits what Hitler was doing. Still, we've always considered Hitler the biggest "racist" ever. So to claim that the Holocaust wasn't "about race", is just a very controversial and stupid comment to make.

I cannot think of any better term that describes this controversy, than the one in the Whoopi is jealous because Jews were more oppressed? comment: Oppression Olympics!

[–] Keelai (31975) 2 years ago

Whoopee didn't believe it was about race because Ashkenazi Jews and Germans are both white.

But, the German's incorrectly identified themselves as a seperate race too, aka: Master Race, while identifying Jews as an inferior race. It's a way of identifying Jews as subhuman and themselves as a superior human. All nonsense, of course.

I don't like that term "ethnic cleansing". Too sanitized for the vile atrocity of genocide.

Whoopee isn't jealous. What a horrible thing to write. Just misinformed.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Whoopi was both right and wrong. She was wrong about the holocaust not being about race, it was by the very definition of the Germans that behind the holocaust about race, only it was the German definition of race which was basically the Aryan master race versus everything else. So to a good little Nazi a black man from Africa was no different than a Jew from Poland or a Korean from Korea.. they were all non-Aryans and therefor not part of the master race.

Where Whoopi was correct is that Jews are not a race. A race is something you are born as and cannot change. If you were born Jewish you could convert to any other religion and you would no longer be Jewish, just as a black man in American can convert to Judaism and become Jewish... So Jews aren't a race, no matter how much some of them want to pretend otherwise.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) 2 years ago

thomas998 :

Re: If you were born Jewish you could convert to any other religion and you would no longer be Jewish

You can't tell me that someone in 1941 who looked like Gilbert Gottfried, even though he no longer went to Temple, living under Hitler's rule, would have survived an exodus to the ovens. He looks like a Jew. Off to the ovens. He would still be considered part of the Hebrew race, which Hitler deemed inferior, regardless of their religious beliefs. Hitler was indeed a bigot, a "German supremacist", and racist.

When we call him a racist though, we must understand that we are including both race and ethnicity in the definition of racist. His true belief was that the German "race" was superior, and all others were inferior. But the Jews were the "wurst" (Not a funny subject, but I couldn't resist).

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

You aren't very familiar with Germans, Germans are not some group or fair skinned blue eyed blonds. As for Gilbert Gottfried, his nose is nowhere near the stereotypical Jewish "hook" nose that you are alluding to. You could find many Germans with that same shape nose.

The simple fact is the Germans were not very good at picking out who was and wasn't Jewish simply by the way they looked which was why they had dedicated an entire group within the Nazi party to trace the ancestors and background of people to insure they weren't Jewish.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) 2 years ago

You don't know me. I am quite familiar with Germans, having visited there a dozen times. I know they are not all the ideal blonde/blue that Hitler found desirable.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

Then don't say stupid things as if Gilbert Gottfried is some quintessential Jew. You can say anything you want about your background, but your comments tell a different story which makes you look like an ignorant cunt.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) 2 years ago

On the sperm of the moment, I couldn't think of any other "stereotypical Jew" other than Gottfried, but admittedly I didn't do much digging. In fact, I didn't do any. He was the first one that popped into my head, I guess because I've complained about him on these boards before, so I went with it.

Who should I have used as an example of a "quintessential Jew", that may have prevented me from being called the C-word. (Gotta admit, that's the first time in my life!).

[–] scannerdarkly (1274) 2 years ago

Harvey Weinstein is who Hitler would have seen as a "quintessential jew" he would have been on propaganda banners for how sinful Harvey was.

But the man could produce a movie, may he do prison in peace.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) a year ago

You are the first person I've ever heard come to Harvey Weinstein's defense.

And you're (not your) calling ME a cunt?

[–] scannerdarkly (1274) a year ago

You misunderstood.

Its been awhile so I had to re-read your message and then mine. I never called you the C-word. I wasnt even a part of your original dialogue with you or this other person. But in the context of Hitler and the supposed "quintessential jew", Harvey Weinstein would have fitted the bill perfectly, as he would be who the Nazis could point at and say "See, this is who has hurt us all and oppressed us and ruined our country"! Harvey was a real cretin, a creep, and a scumbag, also was good with money and investing and made millions off the backs of others talent and used people like sexual objects. He could be used in propaganda to support the notion that Jews are awful. But you cannot use one, or even a small group of bad people to justify dehumanizing an entire race.

As for the final sentence, I own movies, and was surprised to see "The Weinstein Company" logo come across the screen for SO MANY of the good movies that I own! It was disturbing to think how this man kept his scummery going for a long time because he truly did know how to produce a movie! He had some talent himself, and helped others become famous. Also I was half joking about his prison bit in peace at the same time. Sure its in poor taste, but as a joke it did work.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) a year ago

I apologize scannerdarkly. It was thomas988 who called me the C-word.

No, your joke about him doing his prison time in peace did not work at all, sorry. Unless you care to diagram it for me. Still sounds to be like you're supporting him. No matter how good his movies were, it doesn't matter. I hope his ass gets traded for cigarettes.

[–] scannerdarkly (1274) a year ago

I accept your apology. There have been times I have been aggressive or too sensitive on this site, but I dont recall ever outright calling someone a name. So you had me scratching my head over this message post from a year ago.

It was funny to me at the time, but comedy is subjective and much harder to pull off if you dont know someone and its through text. You lose all the nuance of speech.

It would come full circle if he had to sell his body, sexually, for favors or protection.

I dont support his sinful behavior, but people can think what they want. I had two people (relatives) go to prison recently, and my prayers included that "they become better people for the time they serve in prison". They both did something that is abhorrent, some would consider worse than what weinstein did. But the hope is that people can change for the better.

Im tired of being a miserable person, that just sees negativity and darkness everywhere. I hope you are doing well. I am having a good week so far.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) a year ago

All good. I agree "comedy" is very subjective, and very difficult to convey in writing to complete strangers. Sometimes the LOL or :) help convey the message. Funny enough, there's a user here Poopsey1 who complains every time someone writes "LOL". I got in an argument with them over on the Columbo board.

I hear ya that we need to rid the Internet, and Life, of miserable, complaining, whining bitching people. In the words of druggie-turned-Millionaire Rodney King, Can't We All Just Get Along?

[–] scannerdarkly (1274) a year ago

Rodney King said those famous words? I was too busy beating him to hear what he said. *Dee Dum Chee*

That joke might be easier to see xD

The LOL and equivalents I never got annoyed by them, and by your reasoning they are quite helpful!

I actually didnt know Rodney King said that, its good to know where it came from. I had heard it before on various shows and movies and it always seemed to be used for a funny bit and levity, I didnt understand what the reference was.

My favorite comedian is Bill Burr, he has gotten more laughs from me than anyone else. Dave Chapelle is good too, but he's more an orator and storyteller. I also like Louis C.K. but he is too vulgar sometimes and I have to take breaks from watching him. And Daniel Tosh has been entertaining as well.

[–] Keelai (31975) 2 years ago

I suspected the term "ethnic cleansing" must have been coined by those committing genocide so I googled to be sure.

"the term was first used by the perpetrators as a euphemism during the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s. Since then, it has gained widespread acceptance due to journalism and the media's heightened use of the term in its generic meaning"

I'll use genocide.

[–] davebuffalo (3026) 2 years ago

Genocide is much more accurate. Definitely, Ethnic Cleansing is a terrible euphemism. It sounds too much like "bath time", analogous to the Nazis sending concentration camp prisoners to "the showers".

[–] thbryn (226) 2 years ago

Whoopie speaks in kind of smug uninformed answers and I'm sure she didn't mean anything hurtful by this. I don't think she needs to be suspended but the front office knows who controls the media and for that reason wants to be seen as punishing her as a warning.
I don't know if the question of 'Catholicism is a race' is serious but Catholics are for the most part N.European whites like French, German, Italian, Polish,Irish, et al.

[–] Keelai (31975) 2 years ago

Catholic and Protestant are only religions. There is no Catholic cuisine or musical tradition.

Being Jewish is a religion and ethnicity. Jewish people share a common heritage, culture, cuisine, language, music/dance, religion, etc.. Of course, there are cultural differences among Jewish people because of the diaspora.

All the nationalities you named have their own unique cultures and when they're saying Catholic mass it's in their own vernacular language. There is no Catholic ethnic culture.

[–] AmeriGirl26 (12358) 2 years ago

Oh yeah! There's an unwritten points system they have among liberals (particularly in Hollyweird and even the political world) where you get a different score based on which "oppressed groups" you are part of or identify with. The highest points go to people with the darkest skintones or had the worst things happen to them in history. Evidently Jews are still higher than blacks in that system, because I don't recall black people ever being systematically annihilated by anyone using death camps. Gays and trannies also rank high in that system. The higher your "score," the more likely you'll get a job in Tinseltown or Washington these days.

[–] AmeriGirl26 (12358) 2 years ago

Judaism is a religion and a culture, but it has several ethnicities mixed into it. I've seen Israeli Jews, I've seen Ashkenazi Jews (light-skinned Jews of Germanic Descent), and a few other groups. Sadly, a lot of people mistake them for "white," like our "genius" Whoopie did.

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] AmeriGirl26 (12358) 2 years ago

Prove it. I got the information out of a reputable book about Crohn's Disease. What have you got?

[–] [deleted] 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] AmeriGirl26 (12358) 2 years ago

And guess how those European females got inter-mixed in there? By inter-marrying with Jewish men. It's the only way you can join Judaism if you're not born into it. It's an extremely exclusive "club," has very little interest in spreading the word of Yaweh, and often only allows outsider women in if they are going to convert and marry the men.

[–] Devilman (442) 2 years ago

Well according to Zionists. Jews can be whatever they want to be depending on what fits their political and financial agendas...a religion, a race, an elite privileged level of humans chosen by God, a squashed minority, victims of something...etc.

Poor Whoopi she choose a generalizing word and forgot that the Holocaust is copyrighted to Jews only !

[–] LanceDance (1088) 2 years ago

Catholics and Muslims aren’t a race as you know, they’re just people who practice a religion, and the practitioners can be of any race. Same goes for all other religions too.

Jews are an interesting case, since they can be a race, ethnicity, and religion. There are non-Israeli Jews that consist of people who practice the religion, but they’re in the minority. There are ethnic Jews that don’t practice Judaism, but are still referred to as Jewish.

[–] Freddy (1317) 2 years ago

I don't think you can just call yourself a Jew
think you have to be born or swon in

[–] Devilman (442) 2 years ago

General rule is if your mom is Jew you are Jew...

[–] Leodicaprio (6426) 2 years ago

Jews are an ethnogroup

[–] asom (6511) 2 years ago

Well, to be fair the Jews were used as scapegoats for the situation in which Germany was and due to their financial success.

It was mostly painted as a ethnic cleansing but actually it was about power and finances, Hitler just needed someone to blame.

[–] Devilman (442) 2 years ago

Actually many financially successful German-Jews actually lived a great life under the Nazis it was the middle-class under Jews that got the end of the stick.

Some rich people always change skin no matter what religion (they worship money !).

[–] Gd5150 (11042) 2 years ago

They can be both. There are Jewish people who are an ethnicity. And there is the Jewish religion made up of people from all ethnicities.