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Contrarian view of Russia, Ukraine, NATO & the USA.


Since the beginning of the war in Ukraine I have taken it on myself to research different points of view - because as an older American who has seen what this looks like so many times before, and read about it again and again in history books I recognized that most of what we hear in our media is total BS. In a way that has never been controlled like this before. There has always been strong contrarian voices in American before - but not any more.

First fallacy is that Ukraine is a country, in the sense that we in the US and Western Europe understand countries. That whole area of the world is a mess, and Ukraine is a patchwork of old and new type tribes. They are always changing and fighting over borders ( Except when they were part of the USSR ) These tribes can be infiltrated by money and the CIA in order for the US to exploit resources and the people there for our own gain. Ukrainians don't know what is going on.

Second fallacy is that Ukraine is a budding democracy. I cannot believe anyone is stupid enough to fall for what is obvious American military BS propaganda that has been used to justify force and gangsterism for Capitalism since very shortly after the US came into existence. You cannot have a democracy in country where there is not a united "moderate" population - let alone open military hostilities and assassinations in public throughout the land. It's BS, Ukraine is our tool to get at Russia. Russia is a huge prize to be taken by the West - the largest country in the world with relatively a very sparse population and vast resources. The last thing the US wants if for those resources to go to the people or Russia, or in general OUR resources that other countries somehow have on their lands that we are going to get to go to their people. The US "junta" has to own all resources and all streams of income based on those resources .... this is why the dollar is the only real currency.

The third fallacy is the historic relationship between Russia and Ukraine, or the claim that Russia does not have territories in Ukraine. Ukraine was Russia. It was probably a closer territory to Russia and more integral to Russia than Alaska or Hawaii are to the US, let alone Puerto Rico, or the stolen Guantanamo Bay. Ukraine was 1/3 of the Russian economy, and had massive industrial investment. The US and the EU has been paying off Ukrainian oligarchs to basically sell their country off to the West. Shuttering most of Ukraine's heavy industry because it would otherwise be competing with industry in the West. This led to massive unemployment in Ukraine that we never hear about - and emigration from Ukraine.

The breakup of the USSR was not done sensibly, nor with a ear to what this was going to develop into 40 years ago. Crimea and supporting environs is a critical part of Russia's defense and security including massive investment in the local economy and military installations, as well as Russia's only warm-water port access to the Atlantic. There are ethnic Russian speaking people who have lived there ... and be reminded that Ukraine and Crimea were Russian since the times the US become the US .... in the 1700's.

The combination of Russia's interests that are obvious, and the nasty way the US has taken over 50 billion of my taxpayer dollars and used it to set this military reality show up in our media, as well as clamping down on freedom of speech and the press in the worst way I have ever seen in my life make me sympathetic to the Russian side of this. I feel like the worse the US gets successfully, the worse it will get, and we have already turned a lot of countries against us, and forced other countries to go along with us in directions they don't want and never voted on.

In the interests of justice and fairness Russia should get what it wants. Which is, title to Crimea, either an independent Donbas and land bridge to Odessa or some way to resolve this so that it does not break out in war again in 20 years ... which is probably Ukraine ceding that area to Russia.

And the US needs to stop CIA and economic shenanigans all over the world. The amount of money that is thrown away in America's military and political intrigue all over the world could pay for all Americans to live a better than what we think of as average lifestyle that we think of as Middle Class. The best and brightest of America are being thrown away so we can suck foreign people from other countries and deplete them of brain power, and stomp Americans down here - making us a more global and oligarchic state.

*** Don't reply to me until you have read all of this, and have an actual intelligent comment to make - rebuttal or agreement.

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A Putin stooge says what?

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Any specific rebuttal .... read *** a-hole.

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This may come as a shock to you, but you actually don't make the rules for what people here have to read or under which conditions they can reply to your crap.

Sorry if I'm the first to disabuse you of that notion.

I read enough of that bullshit to know it was Putin propaganda.

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Good job being a corporate cocksucking waste of time.

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They only have rules because some morons don't understand how to behave or speak, or debate in public.

I could list Putin's propaganda, and nothing I said would be on that list, because they are facts. If you don't like the way Russia strings them together into a narrative, then compare it to the US version based on BS and lies.

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LOL.

Aw. The poor Putin stooges are upset.

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You gave it your all on that one, I can tell, you must be exhausted.

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It's so sad. Why won't everyone just accept the BS propaganda that you're spewing? Tragic.

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You seem to think that by calling my comment propaganda you are making a valid argument. Did you graduate from Elementary School even?

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Not at all contrarian, that's rhetoric straight from the dictator, Putin.

And even if all you said was true or would not justify the brutal invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes committed against the Ukrainian people.

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> And even if all you said was true ...

This is a tacit admission that you have no idea what is true, and are just parroting the company line. I guess you're not smart enough to understand what you say yourself.

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But comrad, you are parroting the party line of a brutal dictator. I've followed what's going on there for decades. I live amongst people from that part of the world. I'm not swayed by your lies.

Yes, there are ethnic Russians in Ukraine. They were under no threat and needed no protection from the Russian army. Your words are lies. Your pretending to have thought for yourself is a lie.

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Ethnic Russians were being shelled and in the last 8 years 13-16 thousand were killed.
They still are as Ukrainians find them they are shot and their deaths blamed on Russia.
You're stupid if you think I agree or endorse what Putin did.

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You are pulling out all of Putin's lies, so I have little option but to conclude you support him and what he's doing.

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None of what I said was lies at all ... none of it.

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If russians take over the ukraine what is going to happen? What will happen to the ukrainian citizens? Do russians think that russian society is something that a person who can feel real emotions want to live in? Do you think Ukrainians want to have russians who are psychopath like putin and the psychopath russian oligarchy to have any power over them?

Having psychopath russians take over the ukraine does absolutely nothing to make it so Ukraine heads toward being a place where people who can feel real emotions would want to live.

Putin will do nothing but make Ukraine into a psychopath nation that threatens to unjustly send Ukrainians into the gulags just because putin and the other psychopaths who control russia are not likable people.

Tell putin and the russian oligarchy that being wealthy and having high status does not make a psychopath a likable person. Tell putin and other psychopath russians to kill themselves.

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My post was not about any of that. I have no idea what Ukrainians think, and neither do we because all we get is BS propaganda. There's plenty of psychopathic Ukrainians as well, and the fact is you don't seem to be informed about that. The Nazi/Nationalists are threatening and murdering people, and are the ones the US are working with because like the loonie Republicans in the US they are the ones who are most likely to be violent and use violence.

> being wealthy and having high status does not make a psychopath a likable person.

Or maybe even a likable country? The US has the most billionaires in the world.

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tl;dr my sister makes porn

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Putin stated in an essay back in July 2021 that Ukraine should not exist independently of Russia. Russia has always had this possessive view of Ukraine as "Little Russia". Ukrainians have wanted to be free of Russia for centuries. The cossacks were dominant in Eastern Ukraine and their leader made an alliance with Catherine the Great but she had him killed before bsorbing Eastern Ukraine. Russia then seized Western Ukraine from Poland in another war. The Russian empire expanded through war and the Russian nation that formed in 1917 is not the same country as the empire of the czars or even modern Russia that was formed in 1991.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-new-ukraine-essay-reflects-imperial-ambitions/

There has been a debate between Ukraine and Russia over the ancient Kyivan Rus empire. The capital of Kyivan Rus was in Kyiv but many Russians argue that this was the beginning of Russian culture.

https://theconversation.com/how-moscow-has-long-used-the-historic-kyivan-rus-state-to-justify-expansionism-178092

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37871793 * Moscow Saint Vladimir statue *

Ukraine has been independent since 1991 and the BUDAPEST MEMORANDUM was signed by the US, UK, Russia and Ukraine.
Ukraine also declared independence in 1917 but the Soviets invaded and installed a puppet regime.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainian6SovietWar1917hD721.htm

I support the military aid for Ukraine against Russia. Russia has reverted back to a totalitarian state under Putin so it will be difficult to end the war. There is also ample evidence of Russian war crimes and genocide in Ukraine. The United Nations should be involved in ending this so-called special military operation but Russia can use their veto as a permanent member of the Security Council.

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> Ukrainians have wanted to be free of Russia for centuries.

You just cannot make comments like that. At the time of the American Revolutionary war only about 1/3 of Americans were gung-ho with independence. People always make arguments claiming what "the people" want ... usually people who want political power and are willing to lie about it.

The point is that there are multiple ethnic and political blocks in Ukraine that make it Balkanized, like the whole area. Look at the history of wars and ethnic cleansing and how borders have changed and groups fight each other even today - and it is not going to let up. In that context it really doesn't matter.

There is also plenty of evidence that Ukraine has committed war crimes, since even before the war with the shelling of the Donbas region and attacks on ethnic Russians. When our media withholds that information it is no small wonder that we get loud mouth idiots who think since they read some article or saw some spot on TV that they know all they need to know about the situation.

The United Nations should butt out of this, as it should butt out of the Israel Palestine situation - because it cannot be objective. The one thing that works is the UN veto, because otherwise the UN would just dissolve and fade away.

The UN is a nice idea, and I support the good work that it does, but on many issues it is corrupt or biased. Usually towards the US, but also towards the many Islamic countries that make a huge voting block.

You are cherry picking things from Ukraine, but if you look at its history, it has been a mess, and as I said, it is simply NOT A COUNTRY in the way that we in the US and Western Europe think or countries. Poland has a territory dispute with Ukraine. If you recall Yugoslavia, which I bet you don't, the totalitarian government kept the different factions at bay and living together. When that dissolved - boom, violence and hate broke out. So, what some people want has nothing to do with anything, and it changes as well.

Right now Ukraine has been lied to and promised all kinds of things from the US ... just like the Kurds, and other groups we have exploited and left to get murdered. The US cares nothing for Ukraine or Ukrainians ... just how they can be used to inflict trouble on Russia.

Both Texas and California have independent separatist movements ... so the fuck what?

You are regurgitating the establishment narrative, to which I was adding more context to show it is not the whole story. Nothing you said has anything to do with anything. It is a mess for the Ukrainian people, and everyone, and the world would have been better off if Russia had negotiated a peace with Ukraine and war avoided - but the US pushed and planned and schemed for war - it is what we demanded. That is what I am against.

Looking at the situation now, the pragmatic solution that saves the most lives and gets to peace the fastest whatever you feel about it is to negotiate a solid plan with Russia. Now that the US determination to continue to use Ukraine is widely understood, it makes Russia have to fight harder to secure even more of Ukraine than it originally wanted - and instead of leaving it as independent Republics, now they will want to annex it.

The actions of the US and NATO have only made this worse.

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I am certainly allowed to make those statements. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH. You obviously didn't learn that in your commie country. It wouldn't matter if 1/3 were gung-ho anyway. Most people don't want to start a revolution since they can die. There were no surveys back then to determine what the people wanted. It was also quite crazy to try to break free of the mighty British Empire. The Brits came back in 1812 to try to take back the country so independence from the British Empire was a massive undertaking.

I know that most Ukrainians don't want to be part of Russia. Stalin killed a bunch of Ukrainians during the Holomodor famine and then shipped Russians to eastern Ukraine. Stalin also removed the Tatars from Crimea and shipped them to Central Asia. There was a legal victory in 1989 that allowed the Tatars to return to Crimea. A big problem of the Soviet block nations are the minority populations of Russians who live there while maintaining loyalty to Russia.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ukraines-history-and-its-centuries-long-road-to-independence

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

https://www.fidh.org/en/region/europe-central-asia/ukraine/representative-body-of-crimean-tatars-to-be-banned-by-russian-law

The war started in 2014 so I haven't seen much evidence of war crimes. Russia was busy committing war crimes and genocide in Syria so they were not able to focus their full attention on Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/02/russia-committed-war-crimes-in-syria-finds-un-report

Totalitarian nations DO NOT NEGOTIATE. As long as Putin can draft his citizens and poison the opposition, the war will continue. The negotiators that met in Kyiv were actually poisoned and many oligarchs are dying under mysterious circumstances.

https://www.rferl.org/a/abramovich-ukraine-negotiators-poisoning/31774792.html

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I'm not saying the Russian leadership are nice people, or morale, like our shining leadership examples.

In this situation, even PBS has been passing along the government line. There is no freedom of speech that you rant about for Colonels Richard Black, or Daniel MacGregor, or Larry Wilkerson, or Scott Ritter, or diplomats and International Relations experts Stephen Cohen or John Mearsheimer. Those opinions have been censored - despite the fact that they come from experts and unquestionable Americans with far more understanding and experience than You or the links you cite.

The real issue is freedom of information and thought ... not only freedom of speech for morons to pop off their ignorant insults and fill up the discussion space with noise.

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All of the people you cited have written articles for Russia Today so they are getting paid to promote Russian progaganda. Russia Today only exists with the approval of the Russian government. There is not any freedom of speech in Russia. Putin has shut down all independent media outlets and media outlets that criticized him. It's also illegal to criticize the special military operation in Russia. Putin did not like the coverage of his regime in Vladimir Gusinsky's media outlets so Gusinsky was arrested and had to forfeit his media empire.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/apr/04/russia.iantraynor

https://deadline.com/2022/03/tv-rain-russia-tv-channel-protest-1234970555/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-shutdown-tv-channel-invasion-b2026139.html

Tucker Carlson had MacGregor on his show to spout Putin's propaganda and Carlson has been supportive of Russia in the past few years. Richard Black is a wacko and Ritter went to prison after getting caught in an online minor sex sting. While I do occasionally provide links to analysis from think tanks, I usually provide links to reputable news organizations. Russia Today is not a reputable news organization.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/the-virginia-state-senator-who-met-assad-thinks--and-acts--globally-before-assad-black-had-vietnam-and-a-nanny-with-a-wartime-backstory/2016/06/03/2e06da2c-1d38-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html

https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Scott-Ritter-paroled-in-online-sex-case-5936227.php

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You f-head ...

> All of the people you cited have written articles for Russia Today so they are getting paid to promote Russian propaganda.

All of the people pushing the establishment narrative are getting paid much more.

You are being dishonest ... I am not citing Russia Today ... I am citing some of the people who happen to have appeared on RT. By the way, all the folks who have been on Russia Today ( including Larry King ) said no one tells them what to say or censors them.

In terms of rogue oligarchs ... Trump should have been put in prison instead of being elected President, so maybe Putin knows something we don't know.

> Russia Today only exists with the approval of the Russian government.

And our media is all owned by 5 massive elite corporations owned by oligarchs who exercise veto control over everything we see.

You have nothing.

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There isn't an establishment narrative. News organizations report on the current conflict and much of the discussion has concerned the history of Ukraine and their attempts to separate from Russia.

You haven't really cited anything. I have actually provided links to sources to corroborate my views. You are the one who is dishonest and clueless. Larry King was a good interviewer BUT his guests were the stars of his show.

Trump is still in legal jeopardy so he might end up in prison.

There is still plenty of independent media in the USA but it is true that many wealthy individuals and corporations have purchased media outlets. The New York Times is still controlled by one family. Many British newspapers liked The Daily Mail and The Guardian are organized as trusts that operate independently. A lot of US news organizations have been organizing as 501(c)(3) organizations in order to remain solvent. Russia is attempting to block its citizens from viewing foreign websites but the US does allow its citizens to view the internet freely.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/11/vpn-use-in-russia-is-surging-as-government-tightens-internet-control.html

https://www.trustworthymedia.org/list-of-independent-media/

Russia Today is the propaganda arm of the Kremlin. Liz Wahl made waves when she resigned on air over the lies of Russia Today.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/russia-today-anchor-liz-wahl-resigns-on-air-ukraine

I know the truth and you know NOTHING.






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> News organizations report on the current conflict and much of the discussion has concerned the history of Ukraine and their attempts to separate from Russia.

I don't think I want to bother talking to you because that is just flatly not true. The control of the history as the saying goes controls the present, and the establishment narrative around Ukraine is very purposefully slanted to analogize Ukraine as the US, and Zelensky as their George Washington in order to brainwash gullible dupes who fall for that stuff ... over and over and over.

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[deleted]

Still fighting hard to try to make your first intelligent civilized comment ... good luck with that, maybe someday.

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What I find fascinating is that if you take any dissenting view at all about our involvement in the war between Russian and Ukraine, you're accused of sucking Putin's dick. Yeah Kowalski, I'm talking about you. I have NEVER in my life heard ANY pro-Russian rhetoric in the US, let alone from a conservative. I don't give a rat's ass about Russia or the Ukraine, or what they do to each other. Nor do I think we should have spent a single dime on their conflict. It pisses me off to no end that Biden has spent billions on it. The Russian people have tolerated one totalitarian regime right after another, let them sort it out for themselves. In my view, all this nonsense about the war is just deflection to take our attention away from other nefarious shit going on. If you're reading this and think I'm a Russian advocate or apologist, go fuck yourself and work on your reading comprehension.

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"It pisses me off to no end that Biden has spent billions on it."

There wasn't a vote in the Senate?

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How many were RINOs?

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You guys have A LOT of RINO's

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/19/senate-40-billion-ukraine-aid-bill-00033719

The Senate passed a $40 billion emergency aid package Thursday to buttress Ukraine with weapons and other military help as the Eastern European country fends off the Russian invasion.

The chamber’s 86-11 vote clears the legislation for President Joe Biden’s signature

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I don't care, whoever voted for it needs to get out their own damned checkbook.

Then I want the $85billion back that BIDEN walked away from in Afghanistan. Yes, give real machineguns to the Taliban but try to ban AR15's in the US. Democrats are the fucking fascists.

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"First fallacy is that Ukraine is a country, in the sense that we in the US and Western Europe understand countries."

So please do tell. How do you think we in the US and Western Europe define what a country is? Until you spell this out, your arguments as to why Ukraine isn't a country are utterly incoherent.

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> How do you think we in the US and Western Europe define what a country is?

Please learn how to read and understand what someone is saying before you blabber off what you should say in your own comment that doesn't relate to what I said.

I did not say the the US and Western Europe defines what a country is, I said we have our own idea what a country is ... the US having never been invaded and only one Civil War a long time ago.

So you have no argument other than you disagree dishonestly and nastily with my opinion. So what?

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lol! What's hilarious is that you're already floundering because you're so inept and unable to defend your own argument.

You're clearly not the brightest pipe in the crack house are you? It explains your 12495 comments because all you're capable of doing is spewing incoherent babble on a message board because you're unemployable.

So please learn how to read yourself before making critical comments. When you don't it makes it easy to dismiss you as an invalid.

"I did not say the the US and Western Europe defines what a country is"

I never said you did, learn to read. I asked YOU to define what you believe what westerners consider a country to be. You keep making allusions to "us" having our own idea what a country is but you're simply too stupid to define what that is. Since you're having such difficulty processing simple sentences lets try and get you to do this simple task before proceeding onto more complex arguments that will melt your brain.

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I make my argument here, based on facts.
I don't need to defend my argument ... look up the facts.
Nothing I could say can penetrate the lead encrusted skull of the hypnotized.

After all the lying the US has done around wars and foreign entanglements
a bunch of you fake accounts that post every day all day and all night are
so eager to lap it up and fight to defend it. Why? Because you are just
trolls patrolling the boards to try to defend an American militaristic
narrative that is tired and worn out, that's why.

I don't read past your first line on comments like yours.

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Thank you for proving my point, that you're simply too stupid and incoherent to define what a country is.

You should really get a job.

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