...why do people get mad when a woman plays a female trans character in a film?
shareReal doesn't mean same. Idris Elba has come under fire for portraying Heimdal, the Gunslinger and even hypothetical Bond which never became a thing. Was he not a real man?
shareWell, racial factors come into play with those examples. Hilary Swank played a white transgender woman and only got away with it because it was in the 90s.
shareFelicity Huffman got away with it too some years later.
The point is, real doesn't mean same. It wouldn't be acceptable for George Clooney to play a person with dwarfism. That doesn't mean Peter Dinklage isn't a real man.
Peter Dinklage is a real man. He did nothing for that. Someone who is born a man and transitions to a woman had to change things unnaturally to do it.
shareNobody is born a man. A man is something you grow into based on culture. The same for a woman.
"Changing things" is your assumption of something that needs to happen. It does for sex, as in male or female, but not genders... boy, girl, man, woman, guy, gal, gentleman, lady, etc.
You can argue that in our culture the majority believes a boy eventually becomes a man. But you cannot argue that culture is set in stone and is unchangeable. The right-wing pitchforks are up because they see a change in the cultural wind.
You play the game of "I'm not a conservative or a liberal" but conservatism is sticking to tradition. And that is exactly what you are arguing here.
Nobody is born a man? And nobody is born a woman?
How idiotic is this statement? And yet you say you follow science???
As stupid as people are, never assume they can’t surprise you with something even stupider. Ultralite, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel of stupidity. Congrats!
Thanks. You said what needed to be said.
shareXX/XY chromosomes tell you that you were born a man. That's how forensics can tell apart a man from a woman when they find a corpse.
share"XX/XY chromosomes tell you that you were born a man."
No. XX chromosomes tell you that you were born female. XY chromosomes tell you that you were born male. Culture decides when a male becomes a man. I've never heard of a human being born a man. It's always been a baby girl or baby boy. Manhood happens later at some undefinable point but usually around adulthood. Keep in mind that "man" is also an expression for mankind, or humankind, or humans, which includes women.
"That's how forensics can tell apart a man from a woman when they find a corpse."
Again... male and female. Culture decides if a male can simultaneously be a woman, not forensics. Culture decides which bathroom a person with XX or XY chromosomes can use, not forensics.
Here's Shawn Stinson, a genetic female who identifies as a man.
http://www.transvalid.org/wp-content/uploads/shawn3.png
Not only would the majority of our society allow him to be called him. Not only would the majority of our society allow him to use the men's bathroom. But I would guarantee the majority of our society would demand he not be able to use the women's bathroom despite being genetically female.
As I said, gender is cultural. It is the culture that decides it, not forensics.
The slash between XX/XY was to separate the two.
A caterpillar is born a caterpillar then transitions to a butterfly naturally. People who are transgender get hormone shots. If hormones don't determine who is male or female, why get them? You are either born male or female, everything else are personality traits.
"People who are transgender get hormone shots."
Correction. Hormone shots are common, but are not required unless you are talking about SRS which goes beyond mere transgenderism. There are transgenders who have transitioned without hormones or surgery, and have typically been that way since before graduating high school. I have met a few of them.
"If hormones don't determine who is male or female, why get them?"
Hormones and sex simply don't apply here. There are men with low T who get testosterone injections to feel as masculine as they believe they should. Same with transgenders who take hormones to fit what they feel is right for their bodies.
"You are either born male or female, everything else are personality traits."
Well at least you've moved away from the ridiculous "born as a man" narrative.
How is saying being born a man any less ridiculous than saying you were born a boy? You talk about social constructs, and deciding what constitutes a boy and and adult could be up for debate.
shareOh yeah. He likes to argue semantics in order to WIN his arguments too.
shareI think Ultraviolet is referring to the difference between gender and sex. I remember it as gender is between the ears (in one's mind or what is culturally perceived) and sex is between the legs (being male or female).
shareI know what he's saying. He's referring to gender as a social construct, but it doesn't work that way. You are born either male or female (and rare cases of being a hermaphrodite), how you choose to live your life afterwards, whether it's a male, female, donkey, cactus, is a feeling. You can't be what you are transitioning to. It would be like saying woden leg on a pirate is a real leg because he treats it as one. The leg he had before he lost it is the real one.
share"He's referring to gender as a social construct, but it doesn't work that way."
Of course it does. It's very simple. Which bathroom should this person use?
http://www.transvalid.org/wp-content/uploads/shawn3.png
If you think he should have no choice but to identify as a woman because of XX chromosomes and must use the women's restroom, you are a damn fool.
He's not going to find maxi pads in a man's bathroom.
shareI'm pretty sure he doesn't menstruate. And I'm pretty sure you conceded by calling him a he.
The whole thing started with faux chivalry with conservatards trying to get credit for protecting women. But if you flip it to a transman using the women's bathroom, conservatards hit a wall and have to divert with something stupid like maxi pads.
I didn't concede. I called him a "he" because I knew if I called him a "she" you'd call me a bigot.
If conservatives want to talk about women's rights, then they can if they want but I don't care.
But I see how you're using "conservatards" when you very well know it's derived from "retards" which is derogatory when using it to describe someone's intelligence.
So instead of being called a bigot by me, a leftist, you get to insinuate that's what I would've done. Because if you gave me the opportunity to do it, I might not have done it, which is no good for your narrative.
But the question remains, which bathroom? You can't hide behind your maxi pad diversion.
You're calling people "conservatards" so I think it's a fair argument that you would have called me a bigot.
To answer your question, if the person in the picture was in fact born a woman, then a woman's bathroom it is.
"To answer your question, if the person in the picture was in fact born a woman, then a woman's bathroom it is."
Which would scare the literal shit out of any woman using the bathroom. Nobody on the left agrees with it, people in the middle don't agree with it, and moderate republicans don't agree with it either.
Not only does your opinion go against the grain of the majority, it is a staunch conservative one.
Is it the minority opinion? If gender is a social construct then 99% of the world is perpetuating this notion.
shareGender is a social construct because society can determine however many genders it wants.
There are cultures that support more than three genders. Since our culture only supports two for the time being, transwomen get lumped in with women, and transmen get lumped in with men. That too is changing. Which is why right-wingers are raising their pitchforks. They are attempting to stop something already in motion that cannot be stopped.
I don't have to argue with you that Shawn Stinson should use the men's restroom. It's already a fact that he can and always will be able to.
It's only a matter of time before all the lukewarm conservatives pretend you were on the side of trans people the whole time like you pretended you supported gay marriage.
I can call my next door neighbour a white, but that doesn't mean it's right or even accurate.
shareBut we are already in agreement that race is not a social construct. Just like we are in agreement that sex is not a social construct. Just like we are in agreement that age is not a social construct.
Now let's assume the first name on your birth certificate is Joseph, but you go by the name Joe. I do not get to say that you must only go by your legal name of Joseph.
We are already in agreement that names are social constructs. Names and gender are both societal labels we use for identity.
Except I wasn't born with a name, I was given one. I was born with chromosomes, I wasn't given it from a social construct.
shareAs I said, we are already in agreement that sex is not a social construct.
shareAnd neither is gender.
shareAccording to you. There's never been such an agreement among any of the sciences that Gender and Sex are interchangeable. Until that happens, it is up to the majority of society to make the call. And culture is moving in the direction of trans rights. Shawn Stinson having to use the women's bathroom is already considered to be regressive thinking.
The only reason you are willing to say it is because you are on an anonymous message board. But that's conservatism for ya.
Another assumption. I no longer have a Twitter, but when I did I used my real name and picture and said the exact thing I'm saying now.
share[deleted]
True.
shareThat was a true story
shareThey shouldn’t. Same goes for gay and lesbian roles, anyone should be able to play them. It’s also hypocritical when gay actors have a free pass to play it straight, although they might not be embraced by everyone if they come out to be fair. That limits work.
Anyway last time I checked acting was about playing pretend. I have no issue with trans people getting acting roles and support those who do, Laverne Cox and Jamie Clayton were great in their respective shows, but creativity shouldn’t be regulated by any interest group.
I'm with you all the way on that.
shareBut with all due respect, trans women AREN’T real women, so it doesn’t even matter. I have no hatred towards them, and I hope they get the help they need. I just am not going to participate in their false fairy tale world.
And people get mad at ANYTHING...anything at all. Tell them to piss off and move on with your life.
It’s time for people to start standing up to the outrage cancel culture mob and to officially tell them where to shove it! I’ve personally had enough of their bullshit to last 10 lifetimes. This is what happens when “everybody gets a trophy” in life.
I agree with you. Trans women aren't real women. That was the point of my thread. They should be treated as equally as anyone else, but for people to say that gender is a social construct is insulting to me because they're telling me I'm a male because society told me that.
shareI know the point of your post, I apologize, I was kind of talking to everyone in the thread.
Logical human beings are on your side and know biology makes you male or female. It’s pretty simple. I would ignore the rest. They have their own problems, and that is pretty obvious. They are out there right now going through another round of “racial” protests to support someone who raped a 14 year old girl...so that should tell you all you need to know about them.
You should see the post I made on Harvey Weinstein thread last night.
https://moviechat.org/nm0005544/Harvey-Weinstein/5f485c3056f1f32c5305d923/I-know-a-way-for-him-to-gain-sympathy
"Real", "fake" - what does it matter?
I get the frustration some people feel regarding the vocal crazies with weird pronouns, but please don't lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of trans people, those who have gender dysphoria, are just regular people trying their best to live their lives and fit in despite their condition.
Absolutely. But the problem is that people who don't believe that trans people are not the gender they transition to, are called transphobic.
shareOk, but in what situations does it even come up?
And is it really that important to you that trans women/men want to be refereed to one way or the other? Especially when they've transitioned and it's hard to tell.
Sure, biologically, they will forever be a certain way... But socially, they can appear in a way that's more in tune with what feels right. I know it's easy to fall into the slippery slope way of thinking "what's next?!", but it's really not much of an effort to refer to a person who looks like a woman/man accordingly.
I just don't get this whole crusade of "yeah, but they aren't REAL men/women". What's it to you, or me or anyone else, lol?
It usually happens when a story comes to light like when a transgender says they weren't allowed to use a bathroom of their transitioned gender, not being allowed to play on a male/female sports team of the gender they weren't born with. Even thing like being allowed to be in a woman's prison.
However, it still doesn't answer my question. If trans women are real women, how come people get made when a biological female takes on a transgender role?