at least it did not blatantly just copy the original series like TFA did.... - Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion

Do you think if you watched the prequels first, you’d be pissed at kenobi getting killed they way he did in a new hope?

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Hard to say. As an old Jedi, with tricks up his sleeve.... he clearly "died" with a plan in mind. So rather, I think, I would be intrigued just as I was then. If they would let him die in lava killed by Luke, that would possibly have pissed me off too... glad to see this was not the case. Say what we must about the prequels (and originals), their stories are original to each other.

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[–] ChuckFindlay (392) 6 years ago

Luke died using up all of his life force to be the legend the galaxy had turned him into. Whether that makes for a good story or not is up to each one of us, but luke did go out the hero we all wanted him to be. He gave his life to spark a new rebellion, which he did. The galaxy had lost hope, and he gave it back to them with a story of the old jedi master he stood against the first order alone and they couldnt kill him.

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[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

Yes, the Force projection was a good twist, and I love how he was looking at a binary sunset (complete with the amazing William's score from ANH). I liked the kid telling the story at the end. Reminded me of when 3PO was telling the story to the Ewoks.

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[–] Kaine (37) 6 years ago

Maybe.

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[–] maximmm (3089) 6 years ago

Well - since they've now covered the first and third film from the first trilogy - that leaves the empire strikes back as the template for the last film in this trilogy.

They are still copying the first three films, just in different order. That would imply that the next film will have twice as many plot holes as the last jedi.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

In truth we must realize this is not for us anymore. They know Lucas got it right. So they are just repacking the same thing. Why fix it, if it ain’t broke. Not for us old and loyal fans who wants progression in the saga, but for the new kids on the block who knows nothing yet. We do not buy toys. We are all in uproar etc. with all our opinions on how or what they should have done differently and better... but when it comes down to it, we are just not invited to the party anymore.

Hard pill to swallow, isn’t it?

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[–] ChuckFindlay (392) 6 years ago

Lucas did say, the fans grow up. Star wars does not. So no matter who made 7 - 9, I dont think it was ever going to be for us.

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[–] Keelai (32143) 6 years ago

This is deja vu for me. I'm not only a huge Star Wars fan, but also a Trekkie. I've watched as Star Trek was ruined by placing people in charge who had no respect for Roddenberry's vision. The present TV show is hated by the fans. But, a Star Trek fan, Seth Macfarland recreated Roddenberry's Star Trek in his TV show, The Orville which Trekkies love. It's Trek except in name.

I don't get the impression that Johnson liked Star Wars or he wouldn't have destroyed everything that fans have enjoyed about it for the past 40 years. Hamill was right about how poorly Luke's character was written. The Last Jedi has become yet another mindless action adventure flick with no soul. I hope Kennedy is paying attention to the fans' discontent and fixes it.

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[–] ChuckFindlay (392) 6 years ago

I have to disagree with how luke was handled. It may not have been what we wanted or expected, and in light of the passing of carrie fisher it wold have made more sense for him to remain in his "crude matter" instead of ascending.

That being said, it was very much luke skywalker that we know that would sacrifice himself to bring hope back to the galaxy. In much the same way that the character of rey was criticised too good, luke seems to be under the kosh for not being good enough. This luke skywalker has been beaten down by his failing as a jedi master. He failed his students and felt the burden of failing the galaxy as a whole because it was through his actions( in part) that kylo ren was born. The idea of the jedi and sith had worn thin with him. Yes it seems odd considering how in awe of it all he was in the OT. But its clear that being a jedi had much more to it than simply fighting the bad guys. And that the way of doing things is in part what led to kylo ren in much the same way the jedi councils actions led to darth vader. And because of that "the jedi must end".

Luke was never in full control of his emotions. He never had the rigorous training to be a jedi like those that came before him. So its not out of character that luke for the briefest of moments would let his fear of what ben would become being him to draw his saber on a sleeping ben solo. If he had done it, THAT would have been out of character. But losing control for a moment isnt. Like when he lost control and tried to strike down the emperor in anger at the end of return.

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[–] Keelai (32143) 6 years ago

"This luke skywalker has been beaten down by his failing as a jedi master."

That is what's bothering me. They took an uplifting saga and turned it into something else. Luke was the new hope, someone who wouldn't give up on his evil father. They removed our happy ending for our heroes and replaced it with something depressing. Luke didn't have to die at the end after rescuing the others and should've been allowed to be in Episode 9 since Fisher died. It's not necessary to kill off the main characters for new ones to be accepted by fans. I guess Chewie, R2 and C-3PO are next for the junk pile.

""the jedi must end""
The Jedi religion is the best part of Star Wars. Does Johnson know this? In the original EU, Luke recreated the Jedi Order, but without the rigidity that lead to their downfall. He even married and had a kid. There will always be children born with the Force so there will always be Jedi or Sith or similar religions around it. Luke should've known that they couldn't just be wished away.

I didn't get the impression Johnson cared about Star Wars. Tossing out all of Abrams setups felt gimmicky and having a "nobody" Rey be a match for Ren (a powerful Skywalker) with no training and no explanation is poor writing.

I'm willing to wait to see how Abrams fixes this since he's a fan - although an uncreative one.

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[–] ChuckFindlay (392) 6 years ago

I would imagine an easy fix, is that kylo lied in order to make her feel alone and need him.

As for luke, he didnt need to die just like kenobi didnt need to die. But I think for the rebellion to be reborn he did. He stood alone against the first order and survived long enough for the rebels to escape. Luke skywalker is once again bringing hope to the galaxy. Its as noble an end as he could have wished for. Far better than the shit show han solo bowed out with. The force projection and dying on the rock was done probably so that adam driver wouldnt be saddled with the legacy of killing off our child hood heroes one movie at a time lol.

With the passing of fisher it would have made more sense to keep luke around. Although if as I suspect a time jump is coming it makes sense that luke could be a force ghost for rey and leia dies off screen of old age. Perhaps 9 will open with her funeral? Who knows, but if time and money could have been spared I like many others think it would have been far easier to just let her end be with ackbar and the rest of the senior officers. Perhaps not the best ending for the character, but a end that would be easier to move forward with than what we have now.

The EU is no more, I think we all need to get on board with that. Luke wanted the jedi to end, but by the end realised his mistake. Kylo also wants the end to jedi and the sith. A death to the old ways. Perhaps we can expect a jedi order very much like the one luke created in the EU by the end of episode 9. Perhaps that end is what all this is laying the foundations for.

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[–] Keelai (32143) 6 years ago

Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in order to agree to do the movie so I'd blame him. His death doesn't really bother me since it shows how far Ren was willing to go to be evil. Kenobi's death didn't bother me either because he helps Luke destroy the Death Star.

But, Luke's death is an afterthought. He didn't need to die after helping the rebels. It seems pointless except to have a sad scene. The last scene could've easily been his sitting on the rock staring out at the two suns showing how far he came from when he was a kid on Tatooine.

Johnson wanted the Jedi and Sith to end. He basically took a sledge hammer to destroy what fans enjoy about the movie which is why it has a 58 score on RT. Abrams was using elements of the EU in Force Awakens.

Abrams swore he wouldn't do a sequel. This hatchet job to his movie's storytelling foundation must have convinced him otherwise.

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[–] Galactus03 (4293) 6 years ago

Totally agreed Chuck.....

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Funny that you mention Star Trek. Even though I liked the reboot because I found the first one to be a fine movie and good acion, it is no Star Trek. The thing that baffles me the most is that the two first especially have essentially no star trekking in them. I mean, wtf. That is absurd and sort of tells us those story tellers do not know what they are supposed to do. A bit like these Star Wars directors seem not fully understanding what they are supposed to do, I arrogantly say. MacFarland on the the other hand prove them wrong with his Orville. This got it right. It may not be called Star Trek, bit this is what it does.... unlike for example what I hear about even the latest; "Star Trek: Discovery".

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[–] Keelai (32143) 6 years ago

Roddenberry and Lucas were both visionaries, not easily replaced. It doesn't help that presently movies are expected to be almost all action and FX with less time taken to develop characters and tell a story. That's where the heart of a movie originates - not blowing something up.

JJ Abrams is good at recreating what was previously done, but he either doesn't have the courage or ability to go further and add his own creativity to the mix. I enjoyed the characters & their chemistry, story, look and feel that Abrams brought to both Trek films and Force Awakens. Not perfect, but close enough to the originals for me.

I agree with you 100% about the directors not understanding. Johnson appears hostile to the franchise when he tosses what makes it special out to do his own thing.

Lucas knew how to hire people who respected the franchise. I rarely read a SW book or played a video game that didn't "feel" like SW. My beef with ST was that they hired anyone (hacks and haters) which is why that franchise when downhill. Only fanfilms on youtube and Orville keep the original concept going.

Orville is my favorite new show. I seriously want Macfarland to do a Star Wars trilogy because I know he'll get it right.

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[–] maximmm (3089) 6 years ago

In that case, they should have just rebooted it 3 times.
It's obvious they can't come up with new decent material anyways. Lucas tried and it was crap.

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[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

It's a hard pill, but I find I have to agree. Paramount did the same with Star Trek. This is basically best viewed as a soft reboot of the series, whether us old guard like it or not. This would also explain why Johnson has gone down this path of killing off the old characters and having Ren's main agenda be about sweeping away the old ("let it die") to make way for a new order. As you said, we're not the ones who'll go out and buy load of merchandise, or persuade our parents to do so.

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[–] furiousstyles (4361) 6 years ago

copies ANH scene by scene mmm you sure you weren't watching ANH? don't recall a stormtrooper going rogue in ANH.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Guess which movie:

• Starts with a droid with important info escaping from the bad guys.

• The good guy/girl who sent the droid away is caught by the bad guys and interrogated and later freed by a renegade

• The droid is found by a young “Luke Skywalker” type person on a desert planet

• The “Luke” and the droid escapes this planet in the nick of time with the Millennium Falcon space ship - in need of repairs

• The “Luke” later finds out that he/she has special powers

• The bad guys have a type "death star" weapon with which they want to destroy the planet where the rebels have their base

• The climax is disabling shields to this "death star" and finally destroying it via a small hole in its defense.

• The “Darth Vader” type main bad guy escapes it all, and the “Emperor” type bad guy is somewhere else and so also escapes (we only see him in holographic comm)

• Happy ending, sort off as one of the good guys died.

• The good guy who died was killed by the “Darth Vader” type. Not defending himself as it happens, and oh he and the “Darth Vader” guy had friendly relations that went way back...

Which movie? It is:

A: Star Wars – A New Hope (1977)
B: Star Wars – The Force Awakens (2015)
C: All of the above

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Sorry but it's largely a mirror of ESB.

I went into more detail in my topic. I can copy and paste that later unless you see it before then.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Please do paste :)

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

No problem... Plus I was able to add a little note to it:

Small story without a lot of impact to the overall saga.

Resistance on the run, followed closely for the entire movie by First Order... Same thing happened in ESB.

Elsewhere far away on a green planet, a Jedi trainee meets with his/her Master and trains, until he/she leaves to go help the battle.

The master is alone in self-exile on this green planet, by the way, and has been there for a long time.

The Master meets with the ghost of another past Jedi Master.

Hoth 2.0 at the end. There is even a part with escaping the First Order using a cavern, just like the asteroid field.

Also, a couple who is separated from the rest of their allies begin to grow closer, so Rose/Finn mirror what Leia/Han went through in ESB.

I'm sure there are more comparisons to be made.

I don't mind this, in fact it's nice to see the mirroring. History indeed repeats itself.

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Oh and one last thing: Canto Bight is a mirror of Cloud City. Lando was a gambler, and had that kind of swagger. Cloud City has a bit of a loose yet upscale feel to it, which is due to the way Lando runs it as a low-key operation. If Lando could have, I bet he would have made Cloud City into a casino.

Also, they both have a private police force flying around.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Good point. And Lando double crossed them, like the code breaker did.

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Another good point! The only difference is that Lando was a good character in a tough situation, while that DJ guy was just a waste of time in a filler side-plot that had no impact on the movie.

Also, that stuttering... Terrible decision.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Agreed

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

Two more! Super Star Destroyer introduced in Empire. Snoke's huge Star Destroyer introduced here. Snoke talks with huge hologram head, like the Emperor did.

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[–] Jellybeans (36) 6 years ago

Yeah, bit of a ripoff of ESB.

- Luke goes yoda mode dying from exhaustion.

- Salt planet with AT-AT assault.

- New Republic making a run for it and constantly chased by First Order.

- More serious tone with comedy elements, even drafted the soundtrack from ESB in certain scenes.

- Meeting a friendly character that betrays them

- Master and apprentice training.

- Facing your enemy and failing

and more...

You think they doing this deliberately, because if you complain about this, it's like taking a dump on the original series.

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

There's another comparison: The gains of the first movie are largely ignored. Death Star is destroyed in ANH, but Empire seems to be in full power in ESB and Rebels are on the run still just like they were in ANH. No gains whatsoever.

Same thing here. The only gain that stayed intact was that the First Order destroyed the New Republic, however the loss of Starkiller only seemed to make them a bigger threat for some reason, as if they didn't lose many personnel when it blew up.

That may be the case, actually. Starkiller looked like it was mostly an empty planet other than a few installations on the surface that maintain its capabilities.

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[–] Jellybeans (36) 6 years ago

Problem with that is , the rebels were always on the run even in ANH. The Empire had the time and resources to secretly build the DeathStar. In FA how on Earth did they manage to build an even bigger planet killer (granted they scoped an existing planet).

When the New Republic had the resources to take them head on, you would've thought they would go for an all out assault on the base. They beat them at the battle of Jakku. And that was the Empires last stand.

It made more sense they would be hunted by the Empire. But you're telling me the New Republic concentrated all their resources on those few planets and can only muster one Calamari Cruiser with a few support vessels.

ESB is more coherent to me

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 6 years ago

"In FA how on Earth did they manage to build an even bigger planet killer (granted they scoped an existing planet)."

Yes it definitely helps to use a planet... But the Empire still built Death Star 2 in record time after the first Death Star was destroyed. Keep in mind that the first Death Star was absolutely PACKED with Imperial personnel, as it was the core of their fleet.... AND that first Death Star apparently took 20 years to build. Despite the huge losses for the Empire, the second Death Star took like five or so years to become mostly built. It was well over halfway done.

"When the New Republic had the resources to take them head on, you would've thought they would go for an all out assault on the base."

It would have been interesting if the new Republic was lost in some other way.... Like deciding to sign a treaty with the First Order, and then the Republic is basically overtaken with that military-driven greed and becomes the same threat that the Empire was.

That concept would fit in nicely with the "war profiteers" angle that was barely hinted at in Last Jedi. If the same people supply both First Order and Resistance, well then those profiteers may be pulling some strings. They could have pushed for the treaty, knowing that there would be resistance and a new war.

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[–] Recognizer (386) 6 years ago

Yes, but this would have been actual imaginative writing that explores new possibilities rather than rehashing old ones, something that seems to escape modern script writers.

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[–] furiousstyles (4361) 6 years ago

I much prefer TFA to this , at least TFA felt like a star wars film

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[–] AP (5259) 6 years ago

This is ultimately why I prefer Last Jedi over Force Awakens. Force Awakens seemed like a shallow remake of A New Hope with uninteresting characters (except Finn). Last Jedi had its issues and there are still elements of both ESB and ROTJ, but I enjoyed it more as it tried to do something new at least. I'm more willing to watch it again.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

Cannot disagree. But was it good enough? They wasted Luke to an almost insulting degree. They mirrored Ray and Kylo and Snoke, to Luke, Vader and the Emperor. Some of this dialogue is verbatim, even some scenes are mirrored. And when Snoke is ended, it is the same reasoning as in ROTJ (more or less). The Salt/Ice planet showdown.... so while not as shameless as TFA it is borrowing still.

And this is not mentioning the majority is about waiting for the rebellion to run out of gaz.... what a snooze. And some side mission with no purpose, except to press the snooze bottom, I suspect..

I am angered precisely because they seem finally to try a little bit to further the universe, and then just falls flat. TFA was a cheat indeed, though well executed. In the end it entertained, and introduced characters... fine. TLJ is just heartbreaking because it had this wonderful potentiel and I think ambition at one point in time. Yet ultimately it took Luke away for us.

Alas, we shall never see him in his might as I think we have all wanted to see for the last 40 years....

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[–] AP (5259) 6 years ago

The salt mines ended up looking nothing like Hoth or any other snow planet, so I was glad for that. The Kylo, Palpatine, Rey scenes were mirrors of the climax of ROTJ but I didn't feel it was a shameless as Force Awakens (for instance, we finally got to see what those red guards can do since they kept showing up in the background of previous movies without actually guarding a body).

Also, I would argue that Luke's death was handled better than Han's. Luke went out in a badass act of power while inspiring hope in the Rebels as well as saving their lives. Also, he at least got to say goodbye to Leia and 3P0 before it happened. On top of all that, I'm 99.9% sure Luke will show up again as a Force ghost. Han, on the other hand, spent most of his screentime talking about how great Rey was, had one scene with Leia (I HATE that they split up), then died for no real reason while on a mission. Han didn't have to go out and confront Kylo but I guess they needed an Obi-Wan death even if it made no sense to the plot. It would've been nice to at least have him die with Leia nearby or something but instead, two characters who barely know him got to mug for the cameras and look sad. What's worse, after his death, Rey, for whatever reason, has to be consoled by Leia (even passing Chewbacca to do so).

So yeah, Han's death pissed me off WAY more than Luke's.

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[–] HAL 9010 (904) 6 years ago

wouuu let us not go there. The fact that TFA pretty much made all the previous movies meaningless is rocky ground to me. TFA essentially showed us that the bad guys are still bad and as strong as ever, the good guys are still a resistance kind of thing (which I never quite understod), our heroes have split. One ran away for unknown reasons. We learn later he stopped caring???. And our wonderful couple split, because.... well as you do. Han was back to being a space pirate etc etc, so I guess he gave up too... essentially all was like before A NEW HOPE.... "Return of the Jedi, and then he said fucx it" is a more befitting title, we have learned last friday.....

So I was naively hoping the saga of Luke would change this outline in TLJ. But no. Even Ray we now learn is of no important bloodline. The saga of the Skywalkers are no more? Or rather now the final Skywalker are the sole evil ruler of the universe. Yep, sounds good and respectful ? No, not in my view.

That Luke confronted the First Order in the end is the one thing I liked. And then he became a hologram..... good luck that they sent down Kylo... if they would just have continued their advance, then his hologram would have had no effect.

Given what TFA was, I can accept the death of Han. Given what Star Wars was, I cannot accept TFA and TLJ.... not easily, at least.

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