My Favourite of the Three


Books or movies, this is my favourite part.

Every time I re-read the novels, there's something exhilarating about the setting out portion of the journey. I look forward every time to the eerie discovery of the nightmarish Black Riders, of the foul-fair friend meeting with Strider, of the visit to Lothlorien, Gandalf's contesting with the Balrog, and Boromir's betrayal.

Maybe it's that this section feels more "personal" than the others. By the time Return of the King is in full swing, half (or more) of the book (or film) is earmarked for WAR! Not that I don't love the epic battles, but there's something more thrilling about the fight in Moria, desperate, surrounded, weary from long miles spent away from sunlight underground...

Each book, film, or part of the story has its own charms and thrilling moments, it's own character bits that I look forward to, but Fellowship is, for me, the best stuff of all.

I'm not looking for a debate here, although I would happily read what people love about their favourite chapters, volumes, moments, books, films, etc., are - whether those are from Fellowship or the others (or The Hobbit or the Silmarillion or whatever! Long live Tolkien, even in death!)

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This used to be my favourite part too, I used to be disappointed that the Fellowship stayed together for so short and the lack of fantasy elements in the other parts, I didn't understand the focus on humans instead of Elves or Dwarves but then I got the theme of the fantasy world fading to lead to the current real-world age.

I guess some part of me still wishes the Fellowship would have stayed together, with Gandalf staying dead, specially because the other two parts are kinda repetitive. But I respect Tolkien's idea, it's kind of the opposite of traditional stories, where the fantasy or science fiction elements become more and more present as the story progresses.

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I love that, too. The sundering of the Fellowship and that first crack in the armour of the fantasy realm is so stinging and tragic.

The other parts are wonderful, of course, and the fading of magic is so sad. Evil is defeated, but the Shire is tainted, Frodo has no hope of recovery in this world, the Elves (and magic) depart, Lothlorien fades... it's a bittersweet ending, which is Middle Earth's appeal in some ways - that constant sense of tragedy and diminishing.

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Wow, totally agree with this too.

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I think Aragorn says something to the Hobbits in LotR (the book) about how all of Middle Earth's stories are, ultimately tragic, or bittersweet, or something like that. I seem to recall this. I believe it was Aragorn, and I think it's when he's reciting a poem to them and talking of the stories of the old heroes. I might be mis-attributing the quote, of course, but I read it somewhere in Tolkien's work, and I thought, "Yeah". There's always that tinge of sorrow that occurs, even when all else is bright. Re-thinking about the work as, essentially, tragic is interesting because Tolkien's critics mock the simplistic "good v. evil" thinking and the "predictable" happy endings, but are they? Frodo is irreparably damaged, physically and emotionally, and must sail away past his friends, family, and home just to seek peace again.

Naysayers begone, I guess is what I'm saying; Middle Earth is more complicated than a surface reading will belie.

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I love all three movies but yes, there was something special about this one - it has a dark tone and takes its time, whereas the others jump straight into the frenetic action. The first time I read the books - which is a very long time ago! - I felt the same way. While the later novels are great in their own right, they do tend to get bogged down in the lengthy battle scenes.

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Yeah, there's stuff I love about all of them, but Fellowship has that more personal touch. Thing get more EPIC later on. Those battles would be largely meaningless (cool, but meaningless) without the groundwork of Fellowship.

I re-read the books recently and a lot of new stuff stuck out for me. I've re-read them a bunch of times, but new stuff constantly comes to the surface. This time around, for me, it was Frodo's burden. This very normal, very small, very unassuming person has the Doom of the world and a small band of pure evil to carry with him across multiple countries. Sam gets a lot of credit as being the real hero (and reasonably so), but his is a more overt heroism, whereas Frodo is an almost "everyday" hero who has to just keep going in the face of relentless troubles.

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I thought the best part about the first book was how it starts out as an innocent sequel to the Hobbit. You think you’re going on another fantastic, light-hearted adventure with Gandalf, but it turns that little magic ring Bilbo found is actually a doomsday device and is basically the creation of one of Satan’s minions.

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"Oh, boy! Time for an adventure, right Gandalf?"

[Nazgul scream]

"..."

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heh heh!

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I've been tempted to start rereading them again. I just got to see the rerelease of the films in the theaters. I know these movies by heart but there is something about seeing them on the big screen. anyway, I felt the same as you with the movies where I was finding difference nuances and stuff brought to the surface I haven't payed attention to before. Frodo's burden was also one of them. I used to hate how weak they made Frodo in the movie. 1 because I love Elijah Wood and wanted him to have a more active role and 2. KNOWING Frodo has a more active personality in the book. But seeing the movies in their entirety without the bias of book memory or the 'he's my crush, he needs to do it all' I could see what they were doing with the character. I saw how bad the Ring was torturing him like I hadn't really seen before.

Frodo's lines to Bilbo about 'how he used to dream he was off on one of his adventures but Frodo's turned out quite different' really hit me this time around. And then there was a foreboding because I thought to myself: 'Dude, you have no idea what's ahead of you' lol

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Good art is fun the first time, great art bears up under repeat viewings, and the best stuff is the stuff you can get almost new experiences from with new viewings. Lord of the Rings, books or films, are exemplary. Then, of course, they get even better and better with all the peripheral material - if it can be called that. Read The Hobbit, you get more, read the Silmarillion, you get more; the deeper the dive with Tolkien, the better. But, of course, The Hobbit or the Rings stand alone and are great fun on their own, too.

I know I'll be re-reading them again at some point. Can't get enough.

One of my favourite books I've read in recent years was The Fall of Gondolin, which is elemental and feels like a long-forgotten myth rediscovered. It's probably not for everybody because it's among those half-finished Tolkien writings, and like The Silmarillion it's more "legends and history" than "novel", but I loved it. If you dig that side of the Tolkien ouvre, I heartily recommend it.

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This movie is definitely my favorite of the 3 for the same reasons you post. The introduction is always the most interesting stories for me. The characters were funny and there is a definite feel of progression in the story as they hit each obstacle. That's not saying the other stories are bad but that freshness and progression wears off as the story proceeds. It becomes more about waiting for the impeding doom. Waiting for this battle, waiting for that battle. And I am not a fan of battle/war movies which the second two clearly are.

With that being said, it was AMAZING getting to see all 3 films in the theaters again this weekend. And I grew a greater appreciation for TT and Return of the King; specifically the battle of Gondor. That whole sequence, as long as it was, kept me on the edge of my seat and I really enjoyed it more than I use too. I still hate them for killing Haldir though...unforgiveable, lol

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Yes, I'm with you 100%; nothing wrong with Return of the King, The Two Towers is great, but Fellowship is my choice.

The Two Towers was weakest, I felt, partly because of the liberties taken, mostly with Faramir and Osgiliath, but also a bit with Treebeard.

The tragic deaths of heroes...when I resent filmmakers for wiping somebody out, that's always when I know they really made that death count. They made me care deeply. I hate that they killed a favourite character, but if they made me hate that demise, well...good job, filmmakers... Although, I must confess, I wasn't that busted up about Haldir's death. Boromir, though...that's tragic.

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Yes Treebeard and the Entmoot were sacrificed and that was a pity. I was really looking forward to hearing how the Ents' marching song would sound in the movie.

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They've always done a great job with music in these movies, too. Pippin's song for Denethor was very moving. Even in the Hobbit films they got it darn right. I was disappointed they cut a bunch of verses from the Dwarves' song purely because of how ominous and powerful it was.

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I totally agree. The first book is my favorite. I think for me it's the idea that the hobbits are living in this idyllic place and when they step outside of its borders they realize there's a whole different world out there. I love the way the tumultuous past of Middle Earth is not explained directly but is only hinted at in the descriptions of the Barrow Downs, of Round Top, and of the various ruins the hobbits pass on their journey away from the Shire. Each new place they visit is a revelation about what kind of place Middle Earth really is. It's just lovely.

By the time we get to Book 3, yeah, it's mostly war. It's fine, but it doesn't have the same unique charm for me as the first book.

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He (Tolkien) does such a good job in the set-up, too, taking his time to leave the Shire. We feel it along with Frodo; we really feel, "This is it!" and plunge with him into the wilds. I think every Rings fan has a soft spot for Old Butterbur and the scenes at the Prancing Pony because even that reasonably friendly place feels dangerous and alien and you realize how quickly things get dangerous beyond the borders of Hobbiton and the Shire.

Yes, yes! The ancient things and places they pass! Tolkien's greatest strength might be the richness of his world (I'd say second to the philosophies and ideas he brings forth about faith and sacrifice and friendship), and how the whole thing feels so real. I mean, he made it up, of course, but when Aragorn or Gandalf tell the Hobbits about such-and-such a place or hero, or when Elrond or Galadriel speak of Elvish ways and paths and magic, we get the sense that we're just getting reports of truth and history and culture.

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So true. And of course there's everything in The Silmarillion (which I admit I've only partly read) to "back it up." But yeah, those hints of a fully fleshed out world are there all along and it's just done so beautifully.

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Arda was (is) such a feat of imagination; it's truly a testament to the boundless creative energy we have available. Very inspiring. Very daunting.

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I'd say its the best of the Extended Editions.

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I tend to think of LotR films as the EEs, which brought more character, depth, and world exploration than the theatricals, although the theatrical releases do have a snappier pace which is nice. But Middle Earth is a place I like to stroll through and soak in, whether reading or viewing, so a lightning pace is not necessarily optimal for the films.

Still, either theatrical or EE, I enjoy all three.

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The preface of the edition I have of the books has a part in it by the editor where he tries to explain what he loves about the Shire, and he says something like, "I think it's because if I were really able to go live there, I would, like a shot." I think he really captured it. The movies do such a nice job of making you feel like, yeah, is there any way I can move into one of those hobbit holes? And even though Hobbiton is not a real place, Tolkein also captures the similarity of hobbit holes and our own comfy homes, so that you can feel Bilbo or Frodo leaving their nice cozy houses, venturing into the wilderness, and then coming back. And especially Frodo coming back and realizing he'll never quite feel safe or whole there again.

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There is so much about the Shire similar to the lifestyle of the English countryside - at least, there was - do you think anybody who desires to visit Middle Earth has ever tried moving there?

I've thought of it, although not really for Tolkien-type reasons.

What a wonderful thing Tolkien invented, to make people crave to just live in his lands. I give Avatar that much: people yearned to travel to Pandora. The movie failed on a story level and a character level - in a lot of ways - but making people want to be in a fantasy land is an achievement, whatever else happened in that film.

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I saw this before I had read the book so it holds a special place in my heart.

The introduction of the shadowy Black Riders is so good, as is Galadriel's prologue, Hobbiton, The Prancing Pony scenes, Rivendell…I love pretty much everything.

But if I had to gripe it would only be about Arwen replacing Glorfindel, but I understand why it was done and Liv Tyler was excellent in this movie.

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Glorfindel got chopped from Bakshi's version, too, replaced by Legolas. I get it. He's like Tom Bombadil. You want a smooth-flowing storyline? Rings is so massive that trims are needed and adding Glorfindel (badass though he is) would make a lot of movie audiences arch eyebrows. "Who's this? Why doesn't he come back? What's going on here...?" I feel you, but I get the cut/swap.

I don't hate that Arwen is given a more prominent role, if only because without appendices and the advantages of prose, it's hard to get a sense of hers and Aragorn's relationship in a film. It's nice to see her as somebody who is heroic and powerful because we get more of a vibe as to why Aragorn loves her and why they connect. I'll always side with the books, but in this case, the books get to dive in through prose-speak, telling us, "This is Arwen and who she is and what she means to Aragorn," but in the films, we can't get that, unless they wanted to hand Gandalf or Elrond or somebody some really clunker exposition lines.

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This entire discussion is wonderful & thoughtful & rich.

And I agree—in many ways, Fellowship is my favorite, both book & film.

What you wrote above about the story becoming deeper & revealing more with every return to it is spot on. This is what distinguishes Tolkien from the many fantasy writers who followed him, no matter how good & impressive their work is on its own terms—Tolkien's was (and is) the work of an entire lifetime, drawing on the depths of the man, his psyche, his heart & soul. Everything he was, everything he believed in & revered devoutly, is in his work. Every page is suffused with mythic & poetic power. It's as unique & powerful an individual, personal work William Blake's body of work. And to my mind, worthy to stand with Blake, without any quibbles or qualifications. True & enduring art indeed!

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I'm enjoying the conversation, too! I love talking about film or Tolkien, so both at once is wonderful.

Tolkien set the bar high, but also established a kind of template other fantasy writers use to greater or lesser success. You're right, he distinguishes by making the work worthy of re-reading. Other fantasy lit follows the template, but one almost gets the feeling they were drawing out maps of mountains and forests because there are maps in Lord of the Rings, and they're making up languages (in most cases, just throwing in a few terms or lyrical-sounding "elf" words) because Tolkien did it, they don't really need them for the stories.

I always love when authors have clearly abandoned the template. I believe greater success and more life in the genre will be found in works that take risks and try to just do their own thing.

That said, I have enjoyed many an ersatz Middle Earth over the years, so sometimes they can be really great and enthralling, too, and just because Tolkien blazed the trail doesn't mean others cannot walk there, nor find something new and wonderful along the path.

Your insight here is so dead-on: his psyche and his heart and his soul went into the books. When adaptations miss the mark - particularly when Jackson missed the mark - it's because they did not pay attention to that soul. (This is why I rather dread the Amazon series).

You have inspired me to seek out more William Blake. I am familiar with his work a bit, but not enough, and this comparison elevates Blake in my mind as much as Tolkien.

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While Blake is known by most for his shorter poems—"The Tyger" ("Tyger, tyger, burning bright ..."—it's in his longer, prophetic poems that he really works out his personal archetypal mythos. Like Tolkien, he was an artist as well as a writer & myth-maker; in Blake's case, he incorporated the art & text into one, using the technique of copper-plate etching that was revealed to him in a dream by his dead brother. In his mythos, various godlike beings that are portions of Albion, the Eternal Man (and thus also every man) contend with each other, because they've been separated from one another. They also appear in different forms, with different names, across the aeons. Sound familiar? :)

Interestingly, one of those figures is named Orc—in benign form, a fiery, revolutionary youth who overturns the power of cold, mechanistic reason & dogma; in his less benign form, a figure chained by that cold power & thus become a raging, violent harbinger of destruction.

The parallels with Tolkien? Both men's work is that of a lifetime, of a personal mythic vision that expresses the soul of the man, his worldview, his spiritual outlook. Both are distinctly English. Both see a fallen world that yet contains the divine & the sacred, which will one day be redeemed in the end—a world felled by an insatiable hunger for power & control, that destroys & controls, bur that is creatively void—it can imitate the creations of the divine, but only in ugly mockeries of them.

There's a third name to be mentioned here, too: that of Carl Jung. At about the same time that Tolkien was first glimpsing & struggling to create his mythos, Jung was undergoing the psychic descent (some have called it a near-psychotic breakdown) that resulted in his creation of The Red Book—and of course the Red Book of Westmarch is the hobbit-preserved history of Tolkien's early Ages. If you look at the paintings both men did, you'll note how much their trees resemble each other, in fact.

(continued)

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You just moved Blake to the top of my reading list. I'm in the middle of Travels with My Aunt by Graham Greene, but the minute I'm done that one, I'm diving into Blake. Thanks!

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I've always meant to read Travels With My Aunt, and now you've given me the nudge I need to finally do so. :)

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Moviechat.org: come for the movies, stay for the books.

PS
Travels with My Aunt is terrific. I love Greene's work, too, and this one is funny and engaging.

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In all three cases, these men were delving deeply into their psyches, grappling with primal spiritual questions that were of life-&-death meaning to them, and coming to terms with them via the creative act. And this dynamic, positive process continued throughout their lives.

There are two books that helped me to understand Blake when I was a younger man, both books from the early 1970s. One was by Robley Evens, 1 of 4 in a series called Writers For The 70s, about writers then popular with young people. (The others were Vonnegut, Brautigan, and Hesse—the last of whom incorporated much of Jungian archetypal material into his novels.) Evans' book was about Tolkien, and he explores the parallels between Tolkien & Blake, often in Jungian terms. (And Jung, of course, was in turn one of the great influences on Joseph Campbell.)

The other book is Where the Wasteland Ends, by Theodore Roszak, the man who coined the word "counterculture"—but his book is about the objective, reductionist, mechanistic worldview that dominates Western culture. He devotes several crucial chapters to the English Romantics, and has an excellent exploration of Blake & his vision. But much of what he explores about the Romantics as a whole will resonate with the serious reader of Tolkien: the respect & love for Nature, the divine & sacred power that creates & suffuses existence, the healing power of beauty & compassion, the rejection of power that's made only for the sake of more power & more control, the rejection of the mechanistic & the soulless & the merciless.

As I said, for me, good starting points. And there are many other fine books about Blake as well. If you begin delving into his work, I hope that you'll find some of the same wonder & mythic power that you've found in Tolkien.

A couple of interesting links about Blake:

http://www.towntopics.com/wordpress/2015/08/12/william-blake-and-the-imagination-which-liveth-forever/

http://www.cgjungpage.org/learn/articles/book-reviews/35-tolkien-archetype-and-word

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Tolkien had a lot of the Romantic in him. Actually, in some ways I think the Romantics kinda had Tolkien in them, although that's anachronistic. But Tolkien was drawing on myth and legend and Romance in the capital R medieval sense, and the Romantics were influenced by those guys, too. So, I agree that the similarities are abundant.

Great starting points, yes, and I'll start perusing this stuff, if I can get my hands on it, anyway.

Excellent stuff you've written here, too. Very insightful. Your contribution is deeply appreciated!

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As are your kind words. :)

I agree, look at Pre-Raphaelites, clearly following in the footsteps of the Romantics. William Morris is foremost among them with his earlier retellings of myth, including the story of Sigurd the Volsung; and late in his life, his fantasy romances such as The Wood Beyond the World & The Well At the World's End, which many scholars of fantasy regard as the first real fantasy novels. Lord Dunsany's exquisite short stories from shortly after Morris also partake of that mythic tone, with an emphasis on preserving the beauty & wonder of the imagination.

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One of the things we've lost lately, I think, is our capacity for sincerity. Modern society spent the twentieth century perfecting irony, satire, and cynicism (not that those weren't found before, and in quality ways). That's great and leads to stuff like Watchmen and other deconstructions, or to Dr. Strangelove and other pitch-black satires. But it's dampened our palate for Romance, sincerity, and things like epics. We don't have many epics because the zeitgeist likes to mock and tear down earnestness (how many Youtube channels are dedicated to ripping apart films? Many enjoyable channels, but still).

I remember reading about how John Lennon titled Yer Blues in an ironic, cheeky way as a kind of dodge. He was, apparently, insecure about the quality of bluesy lamentation he could write. But he figured if he went with a tongue-in-cheek song title, anybody who said, "Your blues are rubbish, mate," could be sneered at because it was just a joke. We do that a lot these days.

I love irony. I love a bit of snide humour, and cynicism can be useful in many ways. But if we lose what the Romantics valued, what Tolkien gave us, we lose so much of life. Balance is key. Sincerity and cynicism, Romance and satire, and the bitter and the sweet.

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This is a wonderful post. :)

Yes, sincerity, vulnerability, tenderness, etc., are indeed distrusted a lot these days, aren't they? There's the tendency to turn everything into "just a joke" instead. And even much of the satire & cynicism of the current day is more snark than scathing, spot-on satire. There's a fear of seeming weak, of being a target, if anything too honest & sincere is expressed. Anger & scorn can be loudly expressed, of course! But something more quiet & sincere? Not so much.

I like the John Lennon example, as he went back-&-forth with that fear of being vulnerable, sometimes hiding behind a gibe, but sometimes being astonishingly naked. When he dropped the protective sneer, he could write & perform something as haunting & moving as "Julia" for example. And Paul? He seemed more openly sentimental, but often spoke through fictional characters in his songs. Yet when he wrote as nakedly as John did, he gave us "Maybe I'm Amazed." I love all their work, but when they held nothing back, they were at their best.

Returning to Tolkien, Peter Jackson explained his rewriting of Faramir as being due to his inability to believe than anyone could be that decent & honorable. It was a mistake on his part. Faramir isn't a plaster saint in the books, he's just more aware of his own weakness & understands the full danger of the Ring, as Boromir couldn't. He doesn't reject the temptation of taking the Ring from Frodo because he's Just Too Good, but because he knows that he isn't strong enough to resist it—the very reason both Gandalf & Galadriel rejected it. In short, Faramir is sincere. And because he is sincere, he doesn't blame Boromir for briefly succumbing to the lure of the Ring, but grieves for him. And he's as honest with Frodo as he can be under difficult circumstances. And with Tolkien's world having a moral structure, Faramir's sincerity is rewarded.

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Thanks!

Yeah, satire can be useful, as can cynicism, but not if that's the only thing in one's diet. More full palates are called for.

Lennon regretted his decision, too. I seem to recall interviews where he basically said he shouldn't have pulled back on Yer Blues and just gone for it. I agree.

That's a perfect example of a mistake made in adaptation. "I don't believe this character would act this way," is a statement of hubris. You know the work better than the original author? Faramir functioned as you say and gave us a contrast to Boromir. It adds to the tragedy of Boromir's story because if Faramir was sent, as he wanted, Boromir would be alive and defending Osgiliath and the Ring would have had more solid companions for the Fellowship.

I've also heard that they altered it for the film because they didn't want to present the Ring as being so easily rejected, but I think that's rubbish. You just give Faramir a close-up, hear the voice of the Ring whispering to him, and have him struggle that way, then basically say, "put it away, get it out of my sight, I can't trust myself around it." Done.

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Precisely. And add Sam's comment that Faramir reminds him of Gandalf, to emphasize the parallel. Boromir followed after his father in seeing the Ring primarily as a weapon—understandable, given the threat of Sauron & their desire to defend Gondor. Their intentions were good—but as with Gandalf in rejecting it, it was that very desire to do good with the Ring that ensnared Boromir. Faramir, having been a student of Gandalf's, and being more of a scholar than his brother, had learned enough not to trust that specific desire to do good by using something evil—the end did not justify the means, and the means would most certainly have led to a very different & disastrous end.

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Boromir was a warrior, Faramir was a leader.

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In a nutshell. :)

Boromir's subsequent sacrifice gives us the positive aspect of the worthy warrior, something that Aragorn recognizes, respects, and acknowledges. Not only does Boromir redeem himself, his wrong action has that unexpected result mentioned by Gandalf, working good in the long run. And I would expect that in the Fourth Age, Boromir will be remembered for that redemption.

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Yes, I doubt future generations in Middle Earth will remember Boromir for his one faithless deed stacked up against all his faithful ones.

Although, it's possible he wouldn't be remembered at all...

Apparently Tolkien toyed about with a sequel to the Rings, set after the death of Aragorn and the kingdom of Gondor was starting to treat the concept of orcs as myths and the idea of such pure evil and noble heroes as legend and fable. Then there would be a secret cult discovered and so forth. It sounded kind of interesting, but I believe he rejected it because it was kind of just sounding like a thriller and wasn't really in the mode of the Romances he was writing. I'm trying to recall where I read this... I'm sorry I don't have a source on it.

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I think Tolkien was wise in that regard. There are so many sequels, prequels, sidebars & spinoffs to stories today ... yet nearly all of them diminish the power of the original, rather than adding to it. What was wonderful about the original is watered down by being "improved" with unnecessary fine-tuning or retconning. Everything doesn't have to be explained down to the most minute detail. A sense of mystery, of there being something more beyond the boundaries of what's been told, is far more effective.

One of my favorite examples: adding the scene of Roy Neary inside the mothership at the end of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Whatever special effects were put onscreen, they couldn't possibly have the same sense of awe & mystery that Roy entering the ship gave us, with each one of us imagining what might await him. And attempting to show that only diminished that sense of awe & mystery.

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Wherever I heard it, I did get caught up in the story being spun, this mystery and the idea of the crumbling kingdom, or at least the atrophied one that had forgotten its roots - there's a great metaphor there with modern times (we've spoken of the cynicism and detachment) forgetting what is good and sacrificing the True for the Fun or Convenient...but it's just not Middle Earth. An unworthy sequel would have tarnished the legacy.

Mystery is good, yes. Every question need not be answered as long as the *central* questions are closed. "Will Roy find what he's looking for? That wonderousness of the universe?" That's a central question of Close Encounters, and I believe it is answered. "What is the inside of the spaceship like?" has nothing to do with the narrative, and could be answered or not as the filmmakers' feel needed. The mystery is good, and serves that story best, I think.

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This sense of mystery is Romantic to the core. :)

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It certainly is!

Off sails Arthur, maybe to return some day, to the mystic Isle of Avalon. What lies there, why are Morgan and the Lady of the Lake in the boat? Maybe King Arthur will tell us when he returns...

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I don't know much about Bakshi's version, I've never seen it, I only know it from a Nightwish song!
https://youtu.be/80kk95-zZxI

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It's hobbled by the budget running out by the second half, and that it only gets as far as the Battle of Helm's Deep. Yet in some places, I think it outdoes the Jackson films—for instance, the temptation of Galadriel is played in an understated way that makes it superior, to my mind. I love Cate Blanchett, but she could have carried that scene all by herself, without any of the CGI bombast.

Bakshi's version is uneven, no question about that, but it's also strikingly inventive. And John Hurt as the voice of Aragorn is superb. I saw it in the theater when it first came out, and I've rewatched it again over the years. It holds up quite well for me on the whole, despite some dubious choices along the way.

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The animation used has always put me off, I’m not a fan of the rotoscoping or design of some of the characters, the poster with Gandalf is pretty amazing though.

But Anthony Daniels as Legolas?! I may have to watch just for that curiosity.

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He voices a very good Legolas. :)

I can understand that the rotoscoping isn't to everyone's taste. I like it & it works for me, but that's just me.

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It's just now occurring to me that Daniels was Legolas for Bakshi and Mark Hamill voiced Sean for Bakshi in Wizards...

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I'd say definitely check it out, but go in as "fresh" as you can. You can't compare it to Jackson's - it's really apples and oranges.

If you don't care for rotoscoping, that might hold you back some, from enjoying it I mean, but overall I like the art style (even the rotoscoping) and thought it was great (if flawed).

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I agree entirely. Bakshi brought some real charm and wonder to it and made a fantastic movie which is, tragically, held back by the budget, the time frame, and the fact that they only greenlit half the saga.

I really love his Gollum, which is no slight to Andy Serkis, and in fact most of the characters are done really well with the exception of Sam (what the heck happened there?) I prefer McKellen, but the cast is great. Aragorn, you're right, John Hurt is marvellous at that.

The Ringwraiths, though, are really something in Bakshi's. They shuffle and moan and they really are creepy and skeeve me out - eerie stuff. Jackson's are intimidating and fierce and are scary in that way, but Bakshi brought this almost nauseating quality to them that really stands out.

Personally I really liked the art style and the rotoscoping is neat and takes you into the picture more.

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Oh, yes, Bakshi's Ringwraiths! They do evoke a visceral, almost tactile sense of ugliness, decay, corruption .. the corruption of their souls, forsaken to gain power, and so losing themselves by that act.

And yes to his Gollum, too. I know that he's seen as Frodo's shadow, what Fordo would become if he succumbed to the Ring ... but I also see him as the inner being of all Sauron's servants, and even Sauron himself: a shriveled soul, self-damned by the power they crave that is always destroying them. If you strip away all their dark, brutal, horrific exterior, inside they are Gollum. If anything, Gollum is in some ways stronger than they are, because he's still capable of redemption, as we see in that poignant, tragic scene with the sleeping Frodo. Some part of his soul is still alive & longing for the good that could be reawakened in him. Sauron & his servants are beyond that. Saruman is a case in point, when he is offered redemption by Frodo. There's a flicker of yearning in him, but his pride & fear are just too strong, and he deliberately throws away his chance.

Also agree that his Sam was a mistake, going too much for the comic relief country bumpkin than the deceptively simple, feet-on-the-ground sturdiness, loyalty, and solid decency that's the heart of the character.

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I remember years ago discussing Tolkien's deep dives with language and how "Wring/Ring" and "Wraith/Writhe" are basically all connected by this twisting action/imagery. The function of the Ring, the state of the Nazgul's being - all about warping and being bent to evil. So when Bakshi's Ringwraith dismounts his steed and moves like a gimp corkscrew, it's such a clear, visual presentation of the warped nature of this lost soul.

Oh, yes...you know, I've never thought of Gollum as being parallel to Sauron. Gollum is so craven and Sauron so powerful that it seems to beggar such a connection, and yet you are correct. Sauron is a shadow of Melkor, and is craven in his own way. Holy cow, I'm now thinking about Saruman at the end of the books, too, reduced to this petty, mean little tyrant bullying Hobbits, but was he ever anything else? Was Sauron anything but a mean-spirited little bully picking on people? He enslaves orcs by such threats and bullying, which causes them to cycle that bullying on to others.

Even Melkor, of course, in his hubris, has no real gravitas, no real majesty. It's all fake pomp and circumstance. He's just a spoiled, angry child throwing a tantrum.

Tolkien highlights evil for its sinister, ominous, dangerous qualities, but also shows it up for the pathetic state of being it is...

Excellent point; good call on Gollum.

Gollum's nearness to redemption is one of the most tragic stories in the book. He's very much got that Judas thing in him - so close, so far - and by his treachery does the Victory come about. Saruman, too, rejecting redemption (another great insight of Tolkien's: redemption is always available, but is often rejected due to pride and/or despair). The first time I read the books, I really was hoping for Gollum to turn good. I really wanted that.

Even the character design of Sam was upsetting. He looked stupid and Sam's simple, but not dumb. Sean Astin did such a good job with that part.

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I was initially dubious about the casting of Sean Astin, but he really captured the essence of Sam, didn't he?

A recurring criticism of Tolkien is that his characters & his world are too black-&-white, either impossibly good or irredeemably bad. Yet as we see with Gollum, Saruman, Boromir, the Sackville-Bagginses, even the distrust between Elf & Dwarf at first, it's far more nuanced than that. As you say, redemption is offered freely to everyone—but not everyone accepts it. It is, in the end, always a matter of free will & individual choice.

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Astin was very, very good, yes. He made him simple without being dumb and loyal as anything.

Yes, that black-and-white criticism is built on a foundation of dust, I think. Even characters like Gandalf lose their tempers and we see the knife's edge that Galadriel walks when tempted by the Ring, albeit briefly.

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Arwen is the one change from books to films that I really liked. In the books, it's hard to understand what she means to Aragorn and the longevity and strength of their relationship, whereas in the films you can really feel it: both the hundreds-years romance between them and the dilemma they both face - she by giving up the privileges of elfhood to marry him and he by asking her to do so. So defeating the One Ring, although it's good for Middle Earth, and in a way good for their relationship (because they are finally able to marry) also means the beginning of the end of her elvish life. I also loved that even though Aragorn is, pardon my french, super hot, the contrast between his earthy humanness and the elves' otherworldly beauty is done in such a way that you can see why Arwen likes him but also why the other elves don't quite get what she sees in him. The portrayal of their relationship is another wonderful example of that bittersweet that makes the whole series stay with you. I also really loved the elvish language that they put together for those parts of the films.

Also Liv Tyler was really perfectly cast for this role. She was terrific.

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It was nice to feel her presence more. Again, it's an area where the books aren't missing but kinda works better in the translation. Tom Bombadill is the best example of a character who is great and adds so much to the world of the story, but definitely couldn't work on screen, which is by its nature a more "focused" storytelling medium. That's not to say it can't digress or be complex (nor that books are "rambling"), but just that it has to stay a bit more "on-track".

Good point about defeating the One Ring being the catalyst to further Aragorn and Arwen's relationship. Germaine to this conversation, of course is your point about that it also heralds her doom. Again we see the bittersweetness of Tolkien's myth.

Liv Tyler was a great choice, and all the moreso because you wouldn't necessarily think of her first. If I were casting it, I'd be thinking through a lot of British actresses before finding my way to Liv. The daughter of Aerosmith? Armageddon? That Liv Tyler? Yet she's perfect. I wouldn't have thought of Elijah Wood for Frodo, either, and he nails it. The best of those, though, might be Hugo Weaving as Elrond. "Agent Smith!?" But then you think about it for five seconds and go, "Oh, no, that's actually perfectly cast..."

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So true everything you said. Especially about Agent Smith! And yet he's absolutely perfect. Prior to LoTR, the movie I last saw Liv Tyler in was a strange coming-of-age movie the name of which I forget, but I needed eye bleach after watching it. So seeing her so perfectly and elegantly cast for LoTR was wonderful. Totally agree about leaving out Tom Bombadill, that would not have worked at all in the films.

We just watched all three parts of The Hobbit, finished last week, and it wasn't quite the same. Clearly they just were like, we just want to stay in Tolkein's world as long as possible, so they stretched everything out, and it was more than necessary. But I understood how they felt, because when I read the books, I never want them to end either.

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Yeah, the Hobbit films lost focus. Lord of the Rings was laser-focused on the plot and the characters, but to stretch out The Hobbit, they meandered around and forget they were about Bilbo and his adventure. It's a damn shame, too, because Martin Freeman is so brilliant in that role.

I prefer the Rankin-Bass cartoon. It's flawed, and there are parts that I still feel missed the mark in such obvious ways I stagger to think how they did it (the wood elves look like the California Raisins on heroin, for instance), but it's well-paced, well-performed, and Brother Theodore and John Huston are great. Plus, Smaug's feline design is interesting and wasn't just "generic dragon".

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Gosh, the Rankin-Bass was so long ago, I don't really remember it. Yes definitely The Hobbit films meandered a lot and it was a pity it diluted Martin Freeman's awesomeness. Sometimes it felt like we were experiencing Bilbo's adventure in real time, heh heh heh! But I'm glad to have all the movies, they are all a gift to Tolkien fans. Curious to see if the Amazon effort is going to be any good.

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I have trepidation with the Amazon series. I think they're moving through a minefield.

"Game of Thrones was huge; let's throw in sex and nudity everywhere." BOOM.

"People don't like religious stuff; let's ignore Tolkien's world's religious, spiritual, and specifically Catholic ideas. We don't like the idea of a good God." BOOM.

"Diversity and Equity are buzzwords our committees like; we should use this show as an opportunity to virtue signal from soapboxes and turn it into propaganda. Art? Art has never been as good as commercials." BOOM.

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Yeah I'm afraid that they will try to subvert all of Tolkien's Catholic ideas. LoTR is really very Catholic; if they took all of that out, it would stop being itself I think; it would just be characters with the same names and maybe long blond hair for the elves. And Tolkien himself would roll over in his grave.

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It's essential, and I worry that they'll try to ignore it, water it down, or just miss including it from ignorance. They might not even realize how deeply religious the story is.

I'm worried they'll try to do some "Maleficent" thing where it's revealed that Melkor isn't all bad and Illuvatar or Manwe are jerks, or that orcs are just victims of racism or something silly like that.

Now, I'd welcome them diving into an orc redeemed. That would be deeply spiritual and speak to Tolkien's worldview very much.

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Yes it would be interesting to do that re the orcs. I'm not sure if writers in the industry are even capable of seeing how essential Tolkien's Catholicism is to the story, or writing arcs from that perspective. Or, the temptation to undermine the ideas is too great for them, but it's impossible to undermine his ideas without detracting from what makes the stories speak to people.

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I agree with everything you say here. Whether done knowingly or not, I think most people would sense the "It's just not quite right" if they undermined the core tenets of Tolkien's world. It'd show through.

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If I'm remembering this correctly, it seems to me that Tolkien later expressed regret for not showing an orc redeemed, as he clearly believed it was possible, They are, after all, corruptions of Elves; and so some spark of their original nature may yet survive within them. That writer Robley Evans I mentioned in a previous post discusses the orcs & says at one point that he—and perhaps even Gandalf—feels a certain pity for them, as they are so obviously the helpless tools of Sauron (and Morgoth before him). And he also notes that they have courage & even a certain esprit de corps in their small groups—again, originally good qualities corrupted.

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He spoke in his letters about how orcs would, theoretically, be redeemable.

"They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making — necessary to their actual existence — even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)"

I know that Amazon is focusing on Numenor (so I've heard), but how great would a Tolkien Middle Earth series be if it started at the beginning of Sauron's first rise to power (which would lead to Isildur's claiming of the Ring), orcs raiding a village, and we meet one of the rising stars of the goblin hordes, some brutish lieutenant orc, and then he is maybe shown compassion by an elf or a hobbit or somebody and starts becoming troubled by his worldview, slowly rebelling against his commanders and seeking to become a force for good?

I'd watch it.

To your last point, Tolkien also spoke about how Sauron had this much to say for his "goodness": he was at least a faithful servant of Melkor's and though all is evil about him, there is something in being willing to serve others that is valuable and noble. I mean, we're talking a "silver lining" of a firefly in the blackest pits of Tartarus, but still...

One of the stories I wish we would tell more is the redemption of evil. I wanted that in Alice in Wonderland (the Burton one) - a little forgiveness at the end; grace. I would like us to ponder a world where we can be virtuous, strike down evil, and then give evil a second chance to put everything right.

Of course, Lord of the Rings has that, too. Saruman is offered such an opportunity multiple times.

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Great thread. Nice to have a thread that is so full of good discussion and yet everyone agreeing with each other!

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I don't mind dissent as long as it's thoughtful and respectful.

Honestly, this pleases me almost as much as the discussion itself. I've gotten embroiled in a few very negative threads (my fault, I know; I could just not engage) and I always kick myself afterwards. I come here for this kind of thing: positive exchanges of ideas. Those can be challenges (and challenging) and include heated disagreement, but just so long as points of view are exchanged, not just word vomit.

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This, a thousand times over!

We all have films we love, films that we hate to see attacked & disparaged, or interpreted wrongly—well, wrongly from our perspective, anyway. I try to keep that in mind & not get personal or too angry when discussing them. What's the use of getting ugly? It won't change anyone's mind; if anything, it'll just make things worse. At most, I'll try to explain just what it is I see & find in those beloved films that speaks so deeply to me. And different perceptions can be good, if we're open to at least hearing them out. I don't mind hearing a different take on a film—even if I don't agree with it in the end, it's made me think, and it shows me how someone else can have a very different & valid response to that film. This isn't a bad thing!

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That exchange of ideas about films, in agreement or contradiction, when done with grace, humour, and intelligence, that is the reason I come to movie boards.

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Agreed. And I welcome diversity & equity where it's organic to the original story—but "organic to the original story" is the key phrase here. In other fantasy worlds, such as that of Conan, or of Elric & Stormbringer, the diversity is there from the start, with many different races, different cultures, different customs, strong women characters. Nothing has to be distorted or shoehorned in. And I'd want to see that in any film adaptations of those stories—it would be great!

But Tolkien is writing about a specific & deeply personal creation, from a very specific worldview. I'd want that honored & respected in any adaptation of his work. And his creation is indeed quite Catholic: an expression of the man & his being. If someone wants to do a story where God or the gods are evil, then go to it, a la Phillip Pullman. That was as much an expression of the author & his worldview as Tolkien's work is of his. And I enjoyed those books on their own terms; they were inventive, gripping, and internally consistent, questioning the power & intent of organized religion. And that's worth exploring.

Again, though, Tolkien is writing from & offering a different vision, one that posits a moral structure to creation, where beauty & respect & love are all to be cherished & championed over controlling power, ugliness & cynicism. And that's just as worth exploring these days—if anything, it's a necessity.

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Story must come first or the whole suffers. Now, sometimes a little outside messaging or diversity imposed might not be "story first", but it might not be contrary to the world and so could cause an eye-roll at the mini-commercial in the film (the same way a Coca-Cola ad might) but it might not damage the film entirely.

The three levels:

1. The Coca-Cola billboard in the middle of Strictly Ballroom actually works. It's fitting this theme of finding glamour around you and not letting circumstance stand in the way of dreams. They dance by the light of a billboard because they can't afford a "real" studio. It's also really sparkly! It actually works within the world. Fed-Ex in Cast Away is another similar example.

2. Dr. Pepper clearly paid some money for SWAT with Colin Farrell. Characters would get food from McDonald's, but also a can of Dr. Pepper (not a fountain drink from McD's) and you better believe those cans (and the fast food bag) were facing the camera just as much as Farrell and Samuel L. Jackson. You roll your eyes, you move on. The movie isn't that badly damaged.

3. If they stuck Coke or Dr. Pepper into Middle Earth, it would turn it into something like Airplane!

Pullman's a great example. You could no more make a pro-Catholic His Dark Materials than you could an anti-Catholic Middle Earth. The ideas and philosophies he put into Arda matter for the material and without them, the question is: did you really want to tell a story in Tolkien's world? I'd say no. You're bending his world to suit your soapbox.

I agree so much with that last statement. Tolkien gives us a foundational story, and like all good myths, it gives us aspirations and ideals. It isn't sugar-coated. Boromir and Gollum share his world, too. But it does give us paragons and virtues, and we do so need that.

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If a film adaptation is faithful to the heart & soul of the original story, it should stand the test of time. If it changes that heart & soul to suit the current trends, even though they don't suit the original story, then time will not be kind to it. Even when an adaptation champions views that I wholeheartedly agree with, I don't want that to be at the expense of the original's vision. Either tell your own brand-new story, which might well be something I'd enjoy on its own merits, or be faithful to vision of the original. (Again, there's room to make changes in going from page to screen, without losing that original vision. The depiction of Arwen in the films works beautifully, without rewriting the essence of the character.)

There can be exceptions to this, of course, if the director and/or writer(s) are making a film as a comment on & a riposte to the original story, as in Kiss Me Deadly, for instance. But that sort of thing comes more easily to the darker & morally uncertain world of noir in the first place.

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That's an excellent point. Lord of the Rings is timeless; Tolkien's myths are timeless. Any alteration on a large or fundamental scale can only reduce their longevity and relatability. Excellent point.

Good example with Arwen, too. Adjustment or adaptation need not be (indeed, should not be) slavish replication. Let the movie be a movie, not a book, but let the story be the story.

Sure, yes. A direct contrast can work, but then it must be presented as such. A total re-write becomes needed, like West Side Story. They've reset the time and place of the original story, but given brand-new dialogue to go with it so the story works. Or with something like Wicked (which I haven't actually read, but I think it holds) where if the story is to be re-worked, it should be done so to create a new story, not to masquerade as the old story.

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While I would love to have seen Tom Bombadil, that would have been extremely difficult to get right. If the films had been an even longer mini-series, perhaps ... but even then, the key would be to show the immense power & knowledge beneath the merriment & rhyming, the sense of Tom as indeed this eldest & earliest of powers in Middle-Earth. And considering what a ghastly caricature Peter Jackson made of Radagast the Brown, I'm just as glad that Tom wasn't portrayed.

I've always seen Radagast as having the quality of a St. Francis in his love for the natural world, albeit a Merlin-like St. Francis, the Merlin of The Sword in the Stone as he instructs young Wart by turning him into various animals. Radagast's perceived simplicity (so mocked & scorned by the likes of Saruman) is actually sincerity in its purest form, a sense of oneness with the birds & animals he loves & cherishes & studies, and from whom he learns.

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Bombadil might work in a TV series. If they did a limited series, say 6-10 episodes per volume, there might be time enough to smoothly transition into and out of the bucolic interlude with Bombadil, but in one film, the tone must be consistent or the whole foundations of the thing shakes. It would also mean more time for a few lines later at the Council of Elrond about why this deity-like figure cannot aid them with the Ring.

Yes, Radagast was done just awfully, wasn't he? I felt bad for Sylvester McCoy, who clearly does a good job and doing...whatever that was, but was given such waste to work with. I've long said this: Radagast should have tapped deep into those Celtic, British Isles roots and looked like a druid of old, some dangerous nature god, as unpredictable as the seasons, and stalwart as an oak. And he should have been played by James Cosmo.

I do love your comparisons with Merlin and St. Francis. Very astute.

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"Radagast should have tapped deep into those Celtic, British Isles roots and looked like a druid of old, some dangerous nature god, as unpredictable as the seasons, and stalwart as an oak."

What a perfect description!

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Thank you. I've brooded on it ever since seeing a pot smoking man with bird feces matted into his hair being presented in its place...

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Ugh! Radagast deserved far better than that. Again, a distrust of the author's worldview in that regard & a failure to respect it. Radagast himself is only spoken of in the books, yet even in those brief passages, I get a sense of someone worthy to stand beside Gandalf & a pre-corrupted Saruman, someone with his own very deep & rich well of knowledge. And of course it's his sincerity & trust that enables Gandalf's rescue from Orthanc, by sending the Eagle to carry his message (in the books, of course). And again, Saruman's scorn for that sincerity is precisely what sets that rescue in motion.

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I do sorta get where they were going with it, what they were trying to do. I figure they thought, "Hey, it's a kids' movie, let's make him like, the "fun" wizard." Something like that, and then they just went for this comic figure of fun, but they should have come up with the perfect Radagast and then just put him in situations that would be family friendly. I'd go more for the wonder of nature's beauty, have him showing Bilbo some special flower. Maybe he could be jolly, deep hearty laughs and so forth, but not bird crap. That was a humiliation.

You are right, of course, that he should be an equal with the other Istari, who were varying in terms of their individual power, but were certainly peers.

Maybe a sense of the detachment would be okay, that connection with animals that led him away from the mortal races of Middle Earth.

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I like your ideas for Radagast on film. :)

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Thanks!

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The Two Towers is my favorite, most serious and most well-wrought of the three.

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As the middle of the narrative, it does have the fun of being the most dire situations. The muck is building up around the heroes, armies massed against them, the Ring asserting control, Gollum being treacherous, kingdoms who ought to be allied in a state of surly rebellion, and the way out is dim at best. That's a fun place for a story to take you. Helm's Deep is such a good part, too.

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Kind of an odd post considering this is only the first act of one film but whatever. I guess the third act of The Dark Knight is my favorite.

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