MovieChat Forums > GoldenEye (1995) Discussion > A Flawed Love Letter To Real Bond Fans A...

A Flawed Love Letter To Real Bond Fans After the Travesty Of Dalton's Efforts


It must have been an absolute thrill to have seen this in the cinema back in the day after, not only the big gap, but the huge disappointment of Timothy Dalton's grim appearances as Bond.

The apology is set straight from opening with the outlandish skydiving into the free falling plane and nod to Sir Roger, with the Spy Who Loved Me homage in the car racing against Onatopp.

Personally I think the film loses its way a bit post the tank chase scene but nevertheless the strong pungent smell of genuine Bond is inescapable in this one.

One can only hope for something similar after the horrific damage done to the franchise by the Daniel Craig films but tbh I for one won't particularly be holding my breath.

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There was nothing wrong with Dalton's Bond. He was more like Fleming's literary version than any Bond since the early Connery films, and which we wouldn't see again until Daniel Craig showed up: dangerous. A cold-blooded, amoral and ruthless killer, who appeared to be only a few more mission's away from burnout.

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There was nothing wrong with Dalton's Bond. He was more like Fleming's literary version...

That's exactly what was wrong with him. No one was interested in seeing the "literary version" as they were fans of Bond films. Hence their relative failure at the box office - especially in the case of Licence To Kill, which was only his second film.

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You may not have been interested. Don't mistake your personal preferences for everyone else's. "The Living Daylights" was a critical and commercial success, so clearly, most viewers do not share your opinion. The following film, "License to Kill," made back $156.2 million against a production budget of $32 million, so it was a success too. It was not as big a success as other Bond films, but it still made plenty of money. These were not failures at the box office by any honest evaluation.

You are simply wrong on your facts: the films were not failures, and lots of people liked them, and Dalton as Bond.

The reason there was no third Dalton Bond film -- and there was one in the planning stages -- had nothing to do with lack of commercial success, or viewers not liking Dalton's take on the character. After "License to Kill," changes in the ownership of MGM, legal wrangles over Bond’s international distribution, and the potential sale of Danjaq led to a six-year hiatus for Bond film franchise -- the longest pre-pandemic. By the time the dust settled, Dalton wasn't interested in playing Bond anymore, and Eon productions wanted to go in a different direction after such a long hiatus.

I for one am sorry we never got to see more of Dalton as Bond, and so are lots of other people. Audiences may not have been ready for such a radical shift in the character of 007 so soon after the lighter-toned Moore era, but the idea of harder-edged Bond, who sometimes disobeyed orders, appeared to hate his job and be getting burned out on it worked absolutely fine when Daniel Craig played it exactly the same way, so don't tell me that "no one was interested in seeing the 'literary version,'" because that is manifestly not the case. If it were, "Casino Royale," which was the most faithful adaptation of a Fleming novel in decades, and Craig's Bond, again, a very faithful adaptation of the literary one, wouldn't have taken off like a rocket, as it did.

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You may not have been interested. Don't mistake your personal preferences for everyone else's.

I didn't - hence why I said "relative failure".
These were not failures at the box office by any honest evaluation.

It's a very honest evaluation to compare them against other films in the series. And that being said, whatever way you want to dress it up cannot avoid the fact that the two Dalton films are rank bottom (LTK) and close to rank bottom in terms of box office draw for the entire series.

That's nothing to do with me, my personal preferences or getting my "facts" wrong, that's simply how they were received in cinemas at the time.

Enjoy them all you like (tbh I myself softened to them a bit on a recent rewatch) but no amount of post Craig revisionism will change how these were really received at the time.

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I actually enjoy Dalton's Bond. Not a fan of the movies in general, but he was fine.

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This film led to the greatest multiplayer game on the N64.

The N64 game proved that console shooters could work.

Now video games make more money than music and films combined.

Thank you GoldenEye.

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Dalton was absolutely refreshing after the joke that was Moore's Bond.

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Yes, the fans / movie going public certainly thought so!

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AVTAK:$152.4 million
TLD:$191.2 million

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Yes, TD's first Bond - with all the additional lift that brings - barely outperformed Roger Moore in his final outing and looking well past it...

... But please keep going - after all this thread is about the shot in the arm in saving the series AFTER Dalton. So let's have your figures for LTK and Goldeneye as well please, so we can make a full assessment of the "refreshing" Dalton...

Thanks πŸ‘

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I said Dalton was refreshing after Moore and the figures of TLD sure don't support your assertion the audience thought otherwise.

LTK certainly had an inferior script. I'm not surprised it performed worse, especially against many other major blockbusters that year. GoldenEye is superior to both Dalton's movies and I consider Brosnan to be a superior Bond as well. I'm not suprised the movie performed so well, especially after Bond being absent for 8 years. However, how does any of this support your claim that fans were dissappointed with Dalton's performance? Don't confuse your own opinion with that of others.

Thanks.πŸ†

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As I said further up in this same thread:-

It's a very honest evaluation to compare them against other films in the series. And that being said, whatever way you want to dress it up cannot avoid the fact that the two Dalton films are rank bottom (LTK) and close to rank bottom in terms of box office draw for the entire series.

That's nothing to do with me, my personal preferences or getting my "facts" wrong, that's simply how they were received in cinemas at the time.


I knew you wouldn't want to give any further figures but they quite certainly uphold the fact that Dalton's Bond wasn't seen as "refreshing" by the movie going public regardless of my opinion...

His films are rock bottom and pretty near the bottom whichever way you want to dress it up. And, as I said, the fact that at best he only marginally outperformed Roger Moore who would have been shot if he was a horse by the time he was making AVTAK is just embarrassing.

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"I knew you wouldn't want to give any further figures"

Now why the fuck would I give you figures when we both obviously know them by now? I literally addressed the performances of both these movies. The only reason I gave you any figures in the first place is because you made an unfounded claim about the movie going public.

Not only are there other factors to consider in the performance of a movie at the box office, LTK performed better than AVTAK, so it does not prove your assertion that Dalton's performance was disappointing to the fans or disprove that he was refreshing coming after Moore.

Craig's movies are at the top of highest grossing Bond movies, I guess that makes him one of the best Bonds, huh?

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Craig's movies are at the top of highest grossing Bond movies, I guess that makes him one of the best Bonds, huh


Well, he was.

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The OP doesn't seem to think so...and neither do I...

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I liked him, although everything after Casino Royale sucked but I prefer him over the Irish dude with the annoying nasally voice

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Sean Connery is Scottish.πŸ™‚

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Aye πŸ₯°

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Craig's movies are at the top of highest grossing Bond movies, I guess that makes him one of the best Bonds, huh?

LOL - You're the one who started throwing box office figures in as the barometer, not me...

Dalton's first Bond outing was marginally better than the knackered Moore in AVTAK and not better AT ALL in his follow up.

You said he was "refreshing" yet in only his second appearance - i.e. the one after the public had first got to see him - he performed no better (in fact worse, given inflation) than the 70 year old or whatever he was, knackered Sir Roger in his final outing.

Sorry but by YOUR barometer, that absolutely proves (as best as is possible) that Dalton was disappointed to the fans and definitely not "refreshing"...

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LTK had other problems, can't you read?

"LOL - You're the one who started throwing box office figures in as the barometer, not me..."

HILARIOUS! Like I already pointed out, you were the one who brought up the movie going public to somehow disprove my statement. That's why I brought out the numbers. So YOUR barometer, not mine. The movie going public has declared Craig to be the best Bond and there's no denying it. Oops!🀭

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... you who brought up the movie going public to somehow disprove my statement.

LOL! Yes but then when you tried using actual figures to dispute that statement, you couldn't!

Seems stupid to have to repeat this again but - YOU used partial figures in a failed attempt to defend my joke that the movie going public certainly hadn't found him "refreshing".

Yet by that same barometer he obviously wasn't found to be a breath of fresh air / invigorating / "refreshing" / whatever you want to call it because LTK is the rock bottom, lowest performing Bond film whatever way you want to dress it up.

It couldn't out perform 70 year old Sir Roger, wearing a girdle and chasing after Christopher Walken using a Zimmer frame - literally on his last legs!

You can't even use the figures from just his SECOND film to back up your point. You could have just said that you personally found him "refreshing" which would have been fine...

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Both Dalton movies performed better than Moore's last one, so your suggestion that the box office performance proves the public did NOT find Dalton refreshing was not backed up. I do not need to prove the movie going public did find him refreshing because I did not make that claim nor am I the one who considers box office figures a barometer (it's also ridiculous you demand to measure someone's "freshness" by the performance of a sequel).

Now back to the original claim this thread is all about. Prove that the fans were disappointed with Dalton's performance specifically.

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You said:-

Dalton was absolutely refreshing after the joke that was Moore's Bond.


I replied:-
Yes, the fans / movie going public certainly thought so!


And you replied TO THAT:-
AVTAK:$152.4 million
TLD:$191.2 million

Literally just figures!!

And now you've just replied:-
"I did not make that claim nor am I the one who considers box office figures a barometer"! πŸ˜‚

I can't argue with someone who doesn't even understand what they've written.

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Then never argue with yourself...

YOU brought up the box office performance, so I posted the figures to show that they don't back up your claim the movie going public did NOT find him refreshing. Again, YOUR barometer, not mine. It should be easy enough to understand.

Now go back up your claim the fans were disappointed by Dalton's performance specifically.

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Also:-

Prove that the fans were disappointed with Dalton's performance specifically.


...it's also ridiculous you demand to measure someone's "freshness" by the performance of a sequel)


πŸ˜‚ Again - literally YOUR words...

How can you be happy to give half of the figures to support one thing you're saying, then call it "ridiculous" to use them to show something else?

(Answer: Because showing the full picture doesn't fit a particular false narrative)

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Answer: Because you either intentionally or foolishly fail to understand my posting of those figures. Not to support my own argument, but to dispute your claim the movie going public did NOT find him refreshing after Moore.

Try to keep the replies limited to one post.

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...Not to support my own argument, but to dispute your claim...

Hahaha πŸ˜‚ That's brilliant - Absolute gold Jerry!

I don't think that can be topped so for now I'll just say thanks for that and:-

Good day to you Sir πŸ‘

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No comeback to counter an actual argument, huh?😊

Good luck to you, Mr. Aspie!

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AVTAK:$152.4 million
TLD:$191.2 million


Just adding the full picture in here for completeness / fun for anyone who may stumble across this thread in future:-

AVTAK: $152.4 million
TLD: $191.2 million
LTK: $156.1 million

Post inflation figures (2022):-
AVTAK: $395.4 million
TLD: $469.2 million
LTK: $351.1 million

Timothy Dalton's second film (i.e. the one AFTER the viewing public had FIRST seen him playing Bond and could therefore make judgement on) remains the lowest ever performing Bond by Box Office after inflation is taken into account.

Given that there isn't really any way to contest that this was the reality at the time, I guess any response here will only be some further spurious, irrelevant nonsense which I won't have to bother with responding to...

Thanks again and Good day to you Sir πŸ‘

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Please share the figures that prove Craig is THE best Bond ever! (Skyfall at number 1, 3 movies in the top 10, ALL OF THEM in the top 15, FYI)

Thanks again, Mr. Aspie!🀣

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Wow, you read my mind on every count.
Add to it, after the great 007 stunt at the end of the intro, Tina Turner in a song by Bono & the Edge.
It truly brought the spectacle back in the theatre!

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🧦

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Yeah, good point re the classic Shirley Bassey-esque sounding theme tune.

Although, to be fair, I do love the Licence To Kill theme as well, which is very much in the same mould...

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After Living Daylights and License To Kill, GoldenEye was more like a wet noodle.

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Is a "wet noodle" some kind of Chinese proverb for something which massively reinvigorates after a period of almost terminal decline? I'm not sure of the meaning tbh...

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