MovieChat Forums > The Terminator (1984) Discussion > The Terminator mission would have failed...

The Terminator mission would have failed even without Kyle Reese being sent back


The Terminator went through the time machine first, and at the very moment that he was sent back in time, from the perspective of people in 2029, he'd already been back there for 45 years. He obviously didn't kill Sarah Connor because John Connor is still alive. Kyle Reese obviously didn't need to go back in order to become his father either, because, again, John Connor is still alive. That can only mean one of two things:

1. The Terminator failed to kill Sarah, and Reese wasn't really John's father.
2. Skynet had the wrong ideas about how time travel works.

In other words, if you're John Connor in 2029 and you see that a Terminator has just been sent back to 1984 to kill your mother, the fact that you're still there and nothing has changed inherently means that Skynet's plan didn't work. Even just a split second after the Terminator went through the time machine, it's already had 45 years to complete its mission. Had Skynet's theories related to time travel been correct and the mission been successful, John Connor would have poofed out of existence at the exact moment that the Terminator went through the time machine, leaving no time for him to do anything about it, or anything at all, for that matter.

Cameron was looking at this from the faulty perspective of, "Well, the Terminator just went through the time machine a few minutes ago, and a few minutes isn't enough time for him to have located and killed Sarah Connor in 1984," when in fact, he's had 45 years plus a few minutes to kill Sarah Connor at that point.

reply

The story itself is a paradox as John Connor wouldn't even exist in the first place, in the original timeline or beginning of the time loop (in whenever time travel model you want to put it) John's father wasn't Kyle Reese 'cause he wasn't even born yet so there's no way for the story to work, there would be another John Connor with a totally different genetic and thus different desitions, habilities, acts and thoughts, they just wanted to blow the audience minds throwing all those huge plotholes, but without much thought you can clearly see the story is a paradox in itself

reply

"The story itself is a paradox "

The story itself is not a paradox. If you want to call it one, you can say it utilizes the 'Bootstrap Paradox', but in my opinion, the 'Bootstrap Paradox', despite its name, is not REALLY a paradox, as it's pretty logical and everything CAN work out within it perfectly (if done right, and this movie does it 99% right).

I mean, there's nothing inherently paradoxical about it, and it's NOT like trying to lift yourself up by pulling your bootstraps at all.

Another movie, where Bootstrap Paradox is done flawlessly, is '12 Monkeys' (or is it 'Twelve Monkeys'?).

reply

I feel like more people should watch 12 monkeys, though I suppose, maybe it's not understanding that's the issue here. The changing of how time travel travel works in T2 onwards makes people forget what exactly T1 is doing, and people mainly remember T2's whole emphasis on the "no fate but what we make" bit, even though T1's ending basically trashes that concept.

Also, I think it's called a paradox because it does lead to some extraordinary claims when taken to an extreme. It's been a while since I read up on it.

edit: oh yeah, check out the movie Time Lapse if you haven't.

reply

"The Terminator went through the time machine first, and at the very moment that he was sent back in time, from the perspective of people in 2029, he'd already been back there for 45 years."

You are not thinking fourth-dimensionally. Also, it's an IT, not a 'he'.

It has also NOT been there for 45 years, because it was DESTROYED, so it ceased to be a terminator at that point, it existed in 1984 for a very brief time.

From the perspective of people in 2029, Reese ALSO has been in the past, because it doesn't matter when you SEND someone to the past, it only matters when they ARRIVE. Since Reese was 'destined' to be sent to 1984, Reese appeared in 1984 the same day the terminator did, regardless of how long a time passed between SENDING the two characters back in time.

Kyle's people could've waited for 50 years before sending Reese back in time, and from 2029's people's perspective, Kyle would STILL always have been in 1984, helping Sarah destroy the robot. It would still be history that happened in 2029, even though they didn't yet send Reese.

It's not like the 1984 happens ONLY AFTER they send Reese, it's TIME, we're talking about, it's linear in this movie, it doesn't CHANGE or GET CREATED at the point where something happens in the future - the past happens EXACTLY as it does regardless of when Reese is sent, the only thing that matters that Reese is sent at SOME point.

Otherwise, who gets to the past first, would win, and change the future, and even if Reese is 0.001 seconds later, Reese would never arrive or be sent, and Skynet would win, etc.

But obviously that's not how it works, and you can understand this if you think fourth-dimensionally. From 1984's perspective, they both arrive at the same time, regardless of when each is sent. Then everything happens as it does - and then Skynet sends Terminator, and Reese gets sent a bit later, and that's that. Even if they wait 1 year, 10 years, 20 years, it won't matter.

reply

From 2029 people's perspective, Reese was always in 1984, and always stopped the terminator, even if he still waits 10 years before he goes through. There's no rush when we're time-traveling, because we control the point of arrival, which is the only thing that matters. Even if Reese hasn't YET been sent through, he has ALREADY arrived, because he WILL be sent later.

I hope you understand it now. It's not linear time, it's not "Reese will ONLY arrive in 1984 AFTER he has been sent", because he's not sent linearly to just some location, but he's being sent back in time.

The only way your thinking would make sense if Reese would NEVER be sent, but that's obviously not the case. Delays in the future won't matter, when the 1984 arrival point is the same.

reply

"You are not thinking fourth-dimensionally."

Your BttF series line is dismissed.

"Also, it's an IT, not a 'he'."

First, even if the Terminator were strictly a machine, machines are commonly referred to as "he" or "she"; cars in particular are commonly referred to as "she". Second, in this case, we have a machine/organic combination who can pass for a human male while interacting with people and whose organic parts include male reproductive parts, and it follows that the cells which make up his organic parts have male chromosomes, so there's even a scientific basis for referring to him as "he". Third, characters in The Terminator (and its sequels) have referred to him (and other Terminators) as "he", even characters who know what he is exactly. For example:

Kyle Reese: "You still don't get it, do you? He'll find her! That's what he does! That's all he does! You can't stop him..."

Reese has also referred to him as "it", which is fine too.

"It has also NOT been there for 45 years, because it was DESTROYED, so it ceased to be a terminator at that point, it existed in 1984 for a very brief time."

Regardless of what happened to him in 1984, he's been there for 45 years. A broken-down car is still called a car, for example. Also, we don't know what happened to him in 1984 before Reese went back there, we only know that he couldn't have succeeded in killing Sarah Connor or doing anything else that substantially altered 2029, because nothing in 2029 changed when the Terminator went through the time machine.

"From the perspective of people in 2029, Reese ALSO has been in the past"

Only after he goes through the time machine. The point is, there was obviously no need for him to do so.

"because it doesn't matter when you SEND someone to the past, it only matters when they ARRIVE. Since Reese was 'destined' to be sent to 1984, Reese appeared in 1984 the same day the terminator did, regardless of how long a time passed between SENDING the two characters back in time."

Those things are irrelevant to the point that there was clearly no need for Reese to go back in time. The same thing applies to your next two paragraphs.

"Otherwise, who gets to the past first, would win, and change the future, and even if Reese is 0.001 seconds later, Reese would never arrive or be sent, and Skynet would win, etc."

Yes, whoever goes to the past first would win, assuming they can successfully complete their mission. By going to the past first, the Terminator had 45 years to complete his mission. It doesn't matter how quickly Reese may have planned to follow him, because if the Terminator had been successful during all those years he had to do it, adult John Connor would have been erased from history thus 2029 would be drastically different immediately after the Terminator went through the time machine. "Immediately" doesn't leave 0.001 seconds to react; it doesn't leave any time at all.

Consider this more extreme example to illustrate the point: suppose the Terminator's mission was to release some hypothetical super weapon in 1984 that would blast the Earth into quadrillions of little pieces. Regardless of whether he achieved success in 1984, 1989, 1998, or any other time before present day 2029, there would be no time for anyone in present day 2029 to follow him back in time to try to stop him, because the Earth was blown apart prior to 2029. And if someone in 2029 is able to follow him back, that inherently means he was never successful anyway, so following him back is pointless.

Your next paragraph and your post below where you replied to yourself are irrelevant to the point for the same reason as your other three irrelevant paragraphs.

reply

The thing is, you are right. Kyle should have gone back first. End of story.

The problem is, the people replying to you don't get it no matter how many times you explain it.

reply

OP is not right.

Avortac, as far as I can tell is the only one who has a handle of what's actually happening in this film.

The terminator DOES not kill Sarah Connor in 1984 because Kyle Reece is always there in 1984. to facilitate her survival. This nonsense about the Terminator being around for 45 years first before we Kyle Reece makes his move is nonsense.

OP is trying to put a different model of time travel on this film from what I can tell (Sarah Connor Chronicles, I think, where every immediate act upon the past immediately redefines all of reality throughout time from that point forward).

T1 is a causal loop.
Kyle Reece has always come back to 1984.
Kyle Reece has always been John Connor's father.
The events of the film are the only way they happen, ever.

reply

Can't argue with a person who can't see the blatant fault the OP is pointing out.

reply

This topic made me think of a bit more interesting possibility.

If the terminator succeeded, it would fail, only by failing, can it even succeed a little bit.

I mean, if the terminator succeeds in killing Sarah before she can give birth to John, then John won't help humanity in the future to win, so machines will win.

This means, there's NO REASON to send terminator back in time to kill anyone, so Sarah lives, so John will be born, so Skynet loses, so now there's a reason to send the terminator back, but if it kills Sarah..

..it eliminates the reason for being sent back, so basically, if it SUCCEEDS, it won't be sent to 1984.

reply

Time travel movies ALWAYS have flaws in the flow of their logic. It comes down to what you will accept and what you won't.

This movie ended with that Twilight Zone-ish bit where Sarah looks at the photograph. It's the same one that we saw earlier in the movie. It's the only piece of evidence that suggests the future is set to repeat itself. You and the OP are just debating the same flaws in logic that have been made since this movie came out.

Cameron abandons this model in the second movie when we learn that 'there is no fate but what we make'. The new model informs us that the future WAS changed but not enough to prevent the rise of Skynet. It's a parallel timelines model. Each trip to the past starts a new timeline because of the cascading effects (aka Butterfly Effect) of changes to the past.

This model and movie also has its flaws with time travel. Everyone ignores them though for the sake of a good action flick. I won't bother with the flaws... lots of essays, blogs and vids go over that ground.

Looper was the best time travel movie that I know of that had a cohesive model... but it still had to make compromises for the sake of the story. It's the same one used in Frequency and Time Cop.

There IS a way to theoretically travel into the past and avoid paradoxes and such. If you're interested look up the concept of a light cone. It still wouldn't allow for time travel movies like this or any other though.

reply

Looper? Really?

I thought that was the most incoherent take on time travel in a movie that I'd ever seen.
Maybe I should give it another look.

reply

I don't know if it was intentional but the theme, title and story mimic that science experiment you probably did at some point in high school... the feedback loop.

An oscilloscope is hooked up to display an electronic signal. Then some of that signal is fed back to create a feedback loop. It disturbs the original signal which then changes to once more achieve a new equilibrium.

In the classic sci-fi time travel parallel timelines model, a TimeTraveler1 from Timeline 1 goes back to the past, changes some event. This starts a new Timeline 2. When TimeTraveler1 returns to the future, he returns to the new and different future of Timeline 2. This is what happens to Marty McFly, for example, in the original BTTF. He returns to a new future that he doesn't recognize because of the changes he made in the past. He still has the memories of his original timeline where his family was a collection of losers.

Looper is like the feedback loop of the science experiment. There aren't parallel timelines... there is only ONE timeline and changes in the past instantly reflect up and down the timeline to keep everything consistent.

Bruce Willis returns to the past to try to change events to save his wife by killing the Rainman. This is the feedback loop. As changes are made in the past, they instantly have an effect on Willis' memory and physical appearance.

e.g. Joseph Gordon Levitt communicates with Bruce Willis by carving a name on his forearm. Instantly, Bruce Willis' character has the scars appear on his forearm.

Later they argue about JGL's plan to go to France. Willis forcefully tells him to go to China instead, because that's where he will meet his wife. If JGL doesn't go to China, Willis' memory of her will be wiped and he will only have memories of a time spent in France.

-- cont'd below --



reply

The time traveler can never be sure if changes were made in the past because his memories will instantly change to reflect his new past... both versions of the time traveler, past and future, change to be consistent.

In the normal parallel timelines model, if the time traveler killed the younger version of himself, nothing would happen to the time traveler. He is from Timeline1, but he killed a version of himself in the newly created Timeline2. If he returned to the new and changed future in Timeline2, he could read an obituary about his death in the past. Time Traveler 1 is now an 'orphan' in the newly created Timeline 2.

In Looper though, the time line must remain consistent. At the end, to save the mother and child, JGL realizes that the only way to do it is to kill himself. When he kills himself, Willis' instantly disappears -- winks out of existence.

The single timeline rebalances itself to maintain consistency up and down its length. In this changed timeline there never was any future in which JGL's character grows up to be Bruce Willis.

Jeff Daniels character was tasked by the mob with trying to keep the future intact. He knows that changes to the timeline are dangerous because they can't be detected by anyone. Nobody has a memory of the original timeline, not even the time traveler.

That all said, the movie still had to cheat for the sake of a good story. For example, when changes are made, Willis' memory of his past sort of 'fade away'. The changes should be instantaneous just like when he winks out existence.

This same model was used in Frequency. The father in the past creates changes, then relays what he did to his future son via the radio so that he act on those changes. The father hides a wallet under a floorboard and only then does it 'show up' in the future for the son to find it.

Timecop sort of used it too although they cheated a bit because JCVD's cop keeps his original memories iirc.

reply

Thank you for the detailed breakout. Been a while, but I do recall that they were going for the feedback loop as you were describing, with all the realtime changes. I think the reason why I couldn't suspend my disbelief was rooted in:

That all said, the movie still had to cheat for the sake of a good story. For example, when changes are made, Willis' memory of his past sort of 'fade away'. The changes should be instantaneous just like when he winks out existence.


I don't remember anything specific, but I do recall my frustration was with how they chose to implement it. (Like the scarring on the arm thing that you mentioned. It came off very gimmicky to me because if we are to believe what they're suggesting; it means that Bruce Willis should have memories spanning his entirely life from that scarring to how he got here to the present.) So it came off as a broken approach to time travel. But seeing the way you broke it down so elegantly here, I'm now wondering...maybe I just wasn't open to it, given all the usual depictions of time travel (with the implicit parallel timeline situation that most media don't even acknowledge even though that would be the only way that could even make sense).

But obviously, I suspend my disbelief for T2, sarah connor chronicles (lol which is more similar to OP's conceptualization of time travel, and yet somehow John Connor and Skynet manage to wage a war throughout time lmao).

So perhaps I should still revisit Looper and see it for what it is. And if it's less than perfect, so be it, cause it's still a depiction of a type of time travel that we don't often see in films. And few depictions of time travel are "perfect" anyways.

I'll check out Frequency. I might ignore Timecop lmao though I do love a solid JCVD flick.

Unrelated to Looper, but related to T1, check out the movie Time Lapse if you haven't. You might dig it. Three ppl find a polaroid machine aimed apt and it prints photos 1 day in the future.

reply

" check out the movie Time Lapse if you haven't. You might dig it."

Thx. I remember the trailers but for whatever reason, I never got around to seeing this that I recall. I hunt it down.

reply

Connor knew the Terminator would fail since he was 5 WTF are talking about??The whole point of the 1st movie is that it is a closed loop and that you can't escape your Destiny(T2 changed it to NO FATE) and Reese is QUINTESSENTIAL for John without Reese there's no John REESE WAS ALWAYS THE FATHER there was no other original Father it has been debunked by Terminator fans in numerous posts in Imdb and other Internet forums.Reese must travel back no matter what John knew that and that is what matters not if the T-800 succeeded or not

reply

"REESE WAS ALWAYS THE FATHER there was no other original Father"

That doesn't even hypothetically make sense. And there could easily be an original father who wasn't Reese. It would just mean that the events that led to the original, different John Connor would have played out differently the first time around. It could have gone like this:

Original timeline: Sarah Connor gets knocked up by some random guy who isn't Kyle Reese, and there is no Terminator trying to kill her. She names her son John and he joins the military when he's 18 and makes a career out of it. He ends up being the leader of the resistance against the AI machines and happens to choose Kyle Reese to send back in time when the machines send a Terminator back to kill his mother in 1984. There is no gas station picture yet.

Second time around: Instead of Random Guy, Kyle Reese ends up knocking up Sarah Connor and the events play out similar to the movie. The picture is taken for the first time.

Third time around: This is the first time where the events could have been identical to the movie's events. And very similar loops could have happened many times after this, but eventually things change substantially as we find out in the sequels.

reply

Well the random guy did he die like Reese?Did he run away?Why John is named Connor?Why isn't he named John 'Random' in the Future?The random guy didn't recognise him as his legitimate son?Why John didn't give any info about the random guy except that he died before the war?Because he didn't exist.NEVER.Kyle Reese is the Father. Now let's talk biology 🧬 the hypothetical John Random is not John Connor it's a totally different person a half brother of John Connor and John Connor doesn't exist and if John Connor doesn't exist there is no TDE(Time Displacement Equipment) no Skynet no Terminator Universe and you are talking about some other thing some boring ass shitty fan fiction...John Connor is the key,always was,always will be he is the Messianic figure of the Saga literally Jesus Christ (JC) Skynet and John are intertwined together FOREVER ♾ it's a loop 🔁 This is why Dark 'Fail' sucked so much even to fans who can't afford to analyse the Saga.Subconsciously we all know that you CANNOT replace John Connor with some random 5'5 Latina hobbit or some other hypothetical half brother John 'Random' who could have been a wimp ,a beta cuck or gay or disabled or half Black or whatever...

reply

"Well the random guy did he die like Reese?Did he run away?"

It doesn't matter, so choose your own answer.

"Why John is named Connor?"

Because that's his mother's last name. You know that there are a ton of kids who have their mother's last name rather than their father's, right?

"Why isn't he named John 'Random' in the Future?The random guy didn't recognise him as his legitimate son?"

It doesn't matter because Random Guy isn't the father in this movie. His role as the father would have been at least two iterations behind the events of this movie, as I already indicated.

"Why John didn't give any info about the random guy except that he died before the war?"

The John Connor of this movie doesn't even know about Random Guy because his father was Kyle Reese, not Random Guy.

"Because he didn't exist.NEVER."

Or so you say.

"Kyle Reese is the Father."

He's the father of the John in this movie. There's nothing about the events of this movie that requires that Reese was always the father / that John was always the same John, as I've already pointed out.

"Now let's talk biology 🧬 the hypothetical John Random is not John Connor it's a totally different person a half brother of John Connor and John Connor doesn't exist"

Thank you, Captain Obvious, but I already said as much, though there's nothing to prevent him from being named John. It is a very common name after all.

"and if John Connor doesn't exist there is no TDE(Time Displacement Equipment) no Skynet no Terminator Universe and you are talking about some other thing some boring ass shitty fan fiction..."

No, that doesn't follow. It's entirely possible for a different series of events to lead to the creation and rise of AI machines, and it's entirely possible for a different son of Sarah's to become the leader of the human resistance against them.

"John Connor is the key,always was,always will be he is the Messianic figure of the Saga literally Jesus Christ (JC) Skynet and John are intertwined together FOREVER"

Nothing in this movie requires that to be true.

"it's a loop"

The events of this movie only require that there's a loop of at least two iterations (because of the gas station picture).

"This is why Dark 'Fail' sucked so much even to fans who can't afford to analyse the Saga.Subconsciously we all know that you CANNOT replace John Connor with some random 5'5 Latina hobbit or some other hypothetical half brother John 'Random' who could have been a wimp ,a beta cuck or gay or disabled or half Black or whatever..."

I couldn't care less about John Connor. In this movie he was nothing more than a plot device. He wasn't even shown onscreen.

reply

"if you're John Connor in 2029 and you see that a Terminator has just been sent back to 1984 to kill your mother, the fact that you're still there and nothing has change"

Kyle would've also realized at that point that they were in a time-loop, because otherwise the Terminator going back in time would've changed the future, regardless of whether he succeeded or failed. I actually see it as two overlapping time-loops, given that Kyle and the Terminator didn't depart 2029 or arrive in 1984 at exactly the same time. But as you pointed out, John had no reason now to send Kyle back, so the time-loop idea kinda caves in on itself anyway.

"the events play out similar to the movie. The picture is taken for the first time."

It wouldn't be the exact same picture if events hadn't played out exactly the way they did in the movie ... and events wouldn't have played out exactly the way they did in the movie if Kyle Reese had not had that photo.

So yes, Kyle Reese was always the father. There never could've been an "original father".

reply

"It wouldn't be the exact same picture if events hadn't played out exactly the way they did in the movie ... and events wouldn't have played out exactly the way they did in the movie if Kyle Reese had not had that photo."

This is what happens when you don't read the whole post to which you're replying. Of course it wouldn't be "the exact same picture" because it was taken for the first time. How can any picture taken for the first time be exactly the same as any other picture? The picture taken in the next loop will be exactly the same as the first picture, and the loop after that, and so on, for however many times the loop repeats. The first loop after the picture was taken for the first time is the earliest point at which the events of the movie could have taken place.

Again, this is what I said in my post that you replied to:

Second time around: Instead of Random Guy, Kyle Reese ends up knocking up Sarah Connor and the events play out similar to the movie. The picture is taken for the first time.

Third time around: This is the first time where the events could have been identical to the movie's events. And very similar loops could have happened many times after this, but eventually things change substantially as we find out in the sequels.

Does the "bolding" help?

"So yes, Kyle Reese was always the father. There never could've been an "original father".

I've already addressed the same assertion from someone else, you know, in the very post that you replied to. As I said in that post, that doesn't even hypothetically make sense. I said more too, some of which I repeated in this post, complete with some added "bolding." I suggest you go back and actually read it all this time.

reply

I did read your whole post the first time.

"How can any picture taken for the first time be exactly the same as any
other picture?"

The picture wouldn't have been IDENTICAL to the picture that's taken at the end of the movie if events hadn't played out EXACTLY the same as they did in the movie.

"that doesn't even hypothetically make sense."

It makes sense if you subscribe to the idea of an infinite time-loop with no beginning or end, which I think is what Cameron was trying to portray.

reply

"The picture wouldn't have been IDENTICAL to the picture that's taken at the end of the movie if events hadn't played out EXACTLY the same as they did in the movie."

Again, in the movie, according to what I posted, we are not seeing the first time the picture was taken. The first time it was taken it wasn't identical to anything obviously, because it was the first time it was taken. We are seeing the second time it was taken at the very earliest, and that second picture would be identical to the first picture, because the first picture is the one Reese was given by John in the future. Then the third picture would be identical to the first and second pictures, and so on, for however many loops happen before things change as we see in the sequels.

I've already spelled out how it could work without needing to invoke the "Kyle Reese was always the father / there never could've been an 'original father'" nonsense, and your replies haven't refuted anything I've said in any way. Your replies have been based on a miscomprehension of what I said, rather than what I actually said.

reply

that second picture would be identical to the first picture, because the first picture is the one Reese was given by John in the future.

It WOULDN'T be identical to the first picture if the events in this loop weren't identical to those of the previous loop. And the events wouldn't BE identical, because in this loop Reese has the photo - he didn't in the previous loop. And the events in the following loop wouldn't be identical to those in the THIS loop, because the photo he has in that loop wouldn't identical to the one he has in this loop. And so on and so on. Even the subtlest difference in the photo would alter the events ever so slightly. None of the subsequent loops in the template you've proposed could produce a photo that's identical to the one in the previous loop, because its events would never be completely identical to those in the previous loop. That's why this only works as a bootstrap paradox.

Nothing you've said in any of your posts refutes MY assertion that Kyle was always John's father and that there never could've been a different father.

reply

"It WOULDN'T be identical to the first picture if the events in this loop weren't identical to those of the previous loop. And the events wouldn't BE identical, because in this loop Reese has the photo - he didn't in the previous loop."

Again with your comprehension difficulties. I said:

"We are seeing the second time it was taken at the very earliest, and that second picture would be identical to the first picture, because the first picture is the one Reese was given by John in the future."

So, yes, he did have the picture. Once the first picture is taken that allows for the start of the implied loop we see in the movie. There's nothing in the movie that establishes that its events have happened exactly like that before; there's only the implication that they can potentially happen exactly like that again. The events of the movie could be the first time they happened exactly that way or they could be the 100th or the 1,000th or the 1,000,000th, and so on; there's no way to know. As I said, the very earliest that the events this movie could have happened was during the first time traveling event that happened after the first picture was taken.

"And the events in the following loop wouldn't be identical to those in the THIS loop, because the photo he has in that loop wouldn't identical to the one he has in this loop. And so on and so on. Even the subtlest difference in the photo would alter the events ever so slightly."

You don't know what you're talking about. The only importance of the picture is that Reese becomes infatuated with Sarah before he travels back in time to save her. Most any picture of her would have the same effect, especially if it contained only "the subtlest difference," such as one individual grain of the film, out of the millions of grains, having a slightly different hue, which wouldn't even be a detectable difference to the naked eye.

"Nothing you've said in any of your posts refutes MY assertion that Kyle was always John's father and that there never could've been a different father."

Wrong. I've told you that it doesn't make sense. It is nonsense in the same way that a "square circle" is nonsense. It violates the fundamental concept of cause and effect. You already conceded that it doesn't make sense when you called it a paradox; not making sense is a defining factor of a paradox, obviously.

reply

I comprehended fully before what you said. I think you're not comprehending what I'm saying. We keep going around in circles. To a certain extent I think it's just a question of interpretation, though it's sort of moot-point, since the whole premise of the movie is flawed no matter which way you interpret it.

reply

This and other reasons are why I avoid almost all time travel stuff. It's never going to be possible and it is always a stupid contradiction - a joke. But, I have to admit this movie was fun because it did not take itself too seriously.

reply

Time is linear or there would be no causality. Therefore sending the terminators back was unavoidable.

reply

I think you forget the easier solution. If the terminator succeeded in killing Sarah connor he would never had time traveled back to 1984 and thus it is impossible for him to kill Sarah!

Hollywood time travel rules are silly like that.

reply

There are so many things in this and some other movies, that when you think about them, the whole movie falls part like a sundried cracker under a terminator's foot.

Back to the Future also makes no sense, and the sequels even less. I mean, if Marty disappears, then there's no one to stop George from being hit by a car, and thus no Calvin Klein to make Lorraine fall in love with him, thus nothing stopping Marty from being born.

So all Marty has to do is hang around and wait to disappear, then he can live again. No need for the convoluted plot.

How about Doc realizing how dangerous it is to even invent a time machine, as it could mean disappearance of someone and altering history drastically (Doc is ADAMANT about not changing history.. sort of), and decides NOT to invent one. Problem solved, Marty can never travel back in time, Doc is never shot by the Lbyans, and everyone lives happily ever after.

If the terminator succeeds, it will only make sure it can't succeed - it's the same thing, really.

Let's look at it logically.

1) The terminator terminates Sarah, mission successful. It goes to do .. err.. well, maybe let's not think about that, or we might come up with a fate too dark to want to imagine.

2) Now Skynet wins the war easily, because John Connor is not born.

3) Because John Connor is not born, there's barely any resistance, and thus NO NEED to send any terminator back in time.

4) Terminator is thus NOT sent back in time, so Sarah is not terminated.

5) Sarah is not terminated means John Connor is born and Skynet has to wipe out his entire existence, so it sends a terminator back in time.

6) Go back to part 1)

It's an impossible loop, but these time travel stories can usually go only one way.



reply

Doc invented the time machine to travel forward in time.

reply