Honestly, what if there IS no Heaven and you Christians have just lived your lives in a limited way, with a strict adherence to a set of arbitrary rules in a book that is most likely fiction, and not instead just enjoyed life to the full and live every day as if it were your last, because chances are that there is nothing after death. Think about that: NOTHING.
Well I am an agnostic but I would stack up the achievements of Christians ( Western Civilisation ) against the achievements of Hippies ( That's a really sweet joint you rolled there man ! ) any day of the week.
I'm an atheist, and not a hippie.
it has nothing to do with chrsitanity. Europe was uniquely situated due to geography. CHina for instance and other non Christian empires stagnated because they were empires. No serious competition meant stagnation.
meanwhile Europes uneven varied geography meant no single country could establish dominance. constant military competition as well as technological trade meant rapid development. paired with an interest in naval power, means once North America was discovered they had two whole continents to just rape for resources.
nothing to do with christianity.
what a load of nonsense. Christianity was enforced by the sword. even being a christian, but the wrong type of chrsitain would lead to death. its hardly remarkable that their "achievements" were in societies where it was only allowed one way. they had the monopoly of power and education. and when anyone atheist would have been literally murdered lol
shareChristianity was founded in Asia along with most major religions. Romans, aka: Europeans, killed Jesus, the Jewish founder of Christianity.
Many hippies were Christians. Old folks called them Jesus Freaks.
You can still enjoy life and live it up while believing in heaven. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
shareReally? What about sinning with drugs, alcohol and sex? What about the Ten Commandments? Do you go to church?
You can still enjoy life without drugs and alcohol. You don't need to break the ten commandments to live a full life.
shareI drink for pleasure, but come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard the Ten Commandments forbidding alcohol... unlike the Islamic religion, however.
Jesus drank wine. It's in the Bible. Only drunkenness is a sin, not enjoying a light buzz. Lol.
I don't think any drugs are forbidden either.
I'm a Christian (though not a literalist) and believe in a heaven of sorts in that I believe we all return to the One upon the death of our bodies.
That said, if somehow it was proved to me that nothing of me would survive my bodily death, I would live no differently. I drink alcohol (I don't remember seeing anything in the bible against that; in fact Jesus once allegedly turned a barrel of water into wine at a wedding). I don't do drugs, but I'm not seeing anything in the bible necessarily against that either. I don't kill, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery, etc., and so the Ten Commandments doesn't really interfere with my enjoyment of life.
Do you feel that "enjoying life to the full" means doing these things? Doing drugs, cheating with your neighbor's wife, stealing, killing?
Who, exactly, has the limited view?
"I don't do drugs, but I'm not seeing anything in the bible necessarily against that either. I don't kill, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery, etc."
"Do you feel that "enjoying life to the full" means doing these things? Doing drugs, cheating with your neighbor's wife, stealing, killing?"
No, of course not, but even though I'm an atheist, I still have morals, because I try to do good for the benefit of the community at large and not to harm them in any way, as any human being should. You don't need Christianity or any other religion for morals.
"You don't need Christianity or any other religion for morals."
No, you certainly don't. Agreed. And morals is not why I am a Christian. But this is beside the point. Your claim is that Christianity impedes "enjoying a full life." I'm not seeing how.
"Your claim is that Christianity impedes "enjoying a full life." I'm not seeing how."
Doesn't it depend on how literally Christians follow the Bible and the Scriptures? Many don't (at least not that closely) but what about this term I've heard called "God-fearing"? I've never understood what that meant.
"Fearing" is an archaic way of saying you hold something in awe.
share""Fearing" is an archaic way of saying you hold something in awe."
Yeah, and you don't want to do anything to piss that something off. That's what I'm talking about.
Well, as far as I know, I'm not doing anything to piss God off. I don't want to piss off the local police, either, but rather than pretend they don't exist, i try to keep my actions within the boundaries of the law. Which is easy to do because my personal ethic pretty easily accommodates those boundaries. So it is with my theological beliefs.
I'm sorry, I'm not really getting your point. Your assertion is that Christians are "utterly wasting" their lives by believing in heaven and I'm just not seeing how that is.
Let me ask it this way: let's suppose hypothetically that you suddenly became Christian and believed in heaven. You've already stipulated that you don't steal or kill or commit adultery, etc. What, exactly, do you think you would have to stop doing that you are now currently doing? How, specifically, would your life suddenly become an "utter waste"?
"Which is easy to do because my personal ethic pretty easily accommodates those boundaries."
Perfect, so do I.
"What, exactly, do you think you would have to stop doing that you are now currently doing? How, specifically, would your life suddenly become an "utter waste"?"
Since this is a movie board, I was thinking of Carrie White's mother in the horror movie "Carrie" of the 1970s - how she was overboard with Christian beliefs and raising her daughter as well by that extreme version of Christianity. However, others have told me that the mother was mentally ill, and no Christian in full control of their cognitive faculties would behave that way.
Forgive me, RichardBlaine, but while I don't believe that all Christians are like Carrie's mother, many are close to her. I didn't mean to offend, but it was also because I don't know many Christian people, so I don't know how closely and literally they follow the Bible.
I'm not offended; I'm just trying to get a handle on your thinking. You admittedly don't know many Christian people, you have an idea that "many" are like the mother of a film character, and your responses seem to indicate that you're not that well-versed with the basics of the religion itself. And yet you begin a discussion topic by making a bold pronouncement that Christians are "utterly wasting their lives" with their beliefs.
I'm going to assume, with really nothing to back it up, that (somehow) you meant well and move on.
How do you know you are a Christian?
shareYou're looking to make a point about literalism versus non-literalism. I'll listen to a little of it. Go ahead.
shareNo, I am genuinely curious as to why you think you are one. Many people on MC claim to be Christian but its quite obvious they haven´t been born again. Like those who say they are "progressive Christians" which is an oxymoronic term. I honestly don´t know what being a "literalist" even means. Some things in the Bible are metaphorical, like the parables for instance so not everything is to be read literally. That said, I am curious to know what you mean by that, whether it means you cherry-pick which scripture you follow or something else entirely. I hadn´t seen your name on here before so when someone claims to be a believer on MC, I tend to be a little skeptical.
shareWell, it's a definitional thing, isn't it? Whose definition do you want to use? For example, your definition of a Christian includes the requirement that one must be "born again." Tell me what you mean by that and then I can tell you whether I am a Christian by your definition.
shareIn John 3:3-5., Jesus says you need to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God (heaven). In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says many will claim to be believers on the day of Judgment (false converts) and will be cast into hell. So yeah, it might be a definitional thing but its quite an important one, your eternity depends on it!
What does it mean to be born again?
https://www.gotquestions.org/born-again.html
This article explains it if it interests you. Basically it is a spiritual rebirth. Sinners are spiritually dead before they convert. When they are born again, they receive the Holy Spirit and become a new creation in Christ. Those who truly repent of their sins (genuine Christians), will have their sins forgiven by God. There are also a bunch of behavioural changes that follow in the new believer (sanctification), you will no longer want to sin, and will start to seek righteousness etc.
"So yeah, it might be a definitional thing but its quite an important one, your eternity depends on it!"
Yes, but you see if it's a definitional thing, then it depends on the definer, thus rendering the question of eternity with respect to whether one is a "Christian" a debatable point because the definition is a debatable point. You've cherry-picked (to use your term) passages from the Bible (most literalists naturally choose John to do this) to arrive at your belief that being born again (in Christ and Christ alone, presumably) is a necessity. That, in your estimation, is what a Christian is. Moreover, that, in your estimation, is what is required to escape "hell." You've interpreted these ideas literally. (And that, incidentally, is my definition of a literalist. You qualify.)
I probably would not pass your test of being a Christian. My spiritual growth and development have taken place gradually over decades. It's been a very long, circuitous route. But I can tell you that I am a decidedly different man now than I was ten or twenty years ago and I attribute that to my spirituality. Does that mean I've undergone "a spiritual rebirth"? Well, maybe. I reckon only God can say for sure.
"You've cherry-picked (to use your term) passages from the Bible (most literalists naturally choose John to do this) to arrive at your belief that being born again (in Christ and Christ alone, presumably) is a necessity.
I dont "cherry pick" passages. I accept that the entire canonical Bible is god-breathed. Cherry picking would be basing my theology on a few passages and rejecting whatever doesn´t suit me like most people do. You asked me what being born again means. I merely provided examples in scripture where Jesus says you need to be born again. That isn´t cherry-picking.
"most literalists naturally choose John to do this) to arrive at your belief that being born again (in Christ and Christ alone, presumably) is a necessity"
I don´t know why you´re assuming I am only choosing John to arrive at that conclusion. The article link I provided has plenty of references to the new birth outside of John. Such as 1 Peter 1:3, 1 John 3:9. 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Do you believe unbelievers go to hell if they do not repent?
shareSorry, I didn't follow your link. And I was speaking about literalists in general and, more specifically, the assertions that Jesus is the only way.
"I accept that the entire canonical Bible is god-breathed."
Upon what do you base this?
I have no idea where unbelievers go. However, I believe one can separate oneself from God and, upon the death of the body and brain, remain in that separate state. Isolation from that which is God would be my conception of hell.
"Upon what do you base this?"
The Bible of course.
2 Tim 3:16-17.
"I have no idea where unbelievers go."
Jesus said its more than just isolation. He said it was a place of eternal torment. So do you reject the teachings of Jesus? Or you have some figurative interpretation?
You believe the Bible is God-breathed because the Bible says it is God-breathed.
Okay. Thanks for your honest reply.
"Okay. Thanks for your honest reply."
You seem surprised. Should a Christian not believe what the Bible says?
Surely you can see the circularity of your argument, a circle that has come to define your entire worldview. Please tell me you can see it, Billy. You're a Christian because you believe in the Bible because the Bible says it is God-breathed and so you believe in it, thus making you a Christian who believes in the Bible.
I've engaged with enough literalists to tell you that, no, I am not surprised.
What other "worldview" should a Christian be defined by?
share"more specifically, the assertions that Jesus is the only way."
Plenty of scripture that says Jesus is the only way. Do you reject that too? Curious, what do you actually believe is true in the Bible?
If you must know (and I gather you must), I believe (and it is only my belief) that the central tenet of Christianity can be summed up by Christ's prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. "Not my will, but thine be done." Our sacrifice of the ego self to the true self is our means of aligning with the universe. Flesh to spirit, as beautifully symbolized by the crucifixion and resurrection (which may well have happened), is something available to us now. "The Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." That's the gospel of Thomas. I'm not sure if it claims to be God-breathed, but I think I like it anyway.
Additionally, I love the Christian ethic and I would recommend the Sermon the Mount to anyone who would ask me what it means to live a Christian life.
This is the Cliffs Notes version of my worldview, in so far as Christianity is concerned. I'm sorry i don't have time (or the interest, really) to go into any more detail. As I mentioned, my beliefs have come to me over a long period of time. They would not interest you, I'm very certain.
The gospel of Thomas is apocrypha, it also presents a different/false gospel. It is gnosticism. Gnostics believe you get to heaven by acquiring special knowledge which is what the Gospel of Thomas claims. Christians believe we are saved by faith in Christ alone.
I do find the subject very interesting because there are many supposed Christians caught up in false teachings and it brings me great joy in being able to share the truth with them. :)
I mean no offense, but I think I've come to the end of my interest in debating with someone who, first, is tripped up by the most fundamental of logical fallacies in his worldview, and, two, can't even see it.
Listen, Billy, I know the world is a mysterious and scary place. We'd all like answers to everything right? Wouldn't it be great to know that there's a specific place we can go to find them? Wouldn't it be great to know that we know the truth? And to know it for certain. To know it for sure. But life is not so, my friend. And so we all do our best to try to make sense of it. And we all come at it through different ways and from different perspectives. If there's one thing I can leave you with, it is this: The questions are bigger than any single religion. God is bigger.
Perhaps the best we can do is live the questions. Don't be scared by this. My advice would be to please not limit yourself to a single, logically dubious, point of view. Look deeper. Look broader. The Bible is amazing. But so is the Tao Te Ching and the Buddhist canon and the conclusions of philosophers and theologians and kings and warriors and poets down through the ages. Don't be afraid to extend yourself, to expand your mind's reach.
As the man said, "There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
God bless.
because chances are that there is nothing after death. Think about that: NOTHING.
What message do you want the disadvantage Africans to take?
What message would you particularly liek young Africans to get?
Where we are in the present doesn't happen out of nowhere.
yes history existed and events that happened before effect what is now today. god is not nessecary or any part of that conclusion
share...and in your post, lies the deception of 'sin.'
You see the enemy is very cunning, he gets you to believe that not drinking, or taking drugs, or gambling, or cheating on your wife and so on, is boring, it's not 'living your life to the full.' When in reality, these things are destructive, ...that's the clever deception. Why do you think so many who practice such things, wind up in addiction?
As Ackbar once said, 'It's a Trap!'
True happiness comes from freedom from such things, ...not needing the next temporary fix to validate your life. There is no greater thrill, than knowing the Creator of 'all things.'
God will blow your mind beyond comprehension, and unlike the enemy, who will give you the temporary desires of your flesh, ...God will give you the eternal desires of your heart.
I wish you well,
God Bless xxx