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"How Disney Pivoted Away From Villains"

posted 2 years ago by Furienna (3330)
26 replies | jump to latest

https://collider.com/how-disney-pivoted-away-from-villains-encanto-luca/

While I must say that the author makes some interesting points, I think I have to disagree with her.
No, it is not necessary for every Disney movie to have a traditional villain.
But I would be sad if the character type disappeared entirely.
All of the best classic Disney villains are actually interesting in their own right.
No, you will maybe not meet such a person in real life.
However, it is not impossible to come dangerously close to it.
Some of these classic villains are not that two-dimensionally evil either.
They can still show us that they have a sympathetic backstory or one redeeming quality...

ETA: I think I should add some examples of what I meant in the last lines of the previous paragraph.
All of these Disney villains are undoubtedly real bastards, but... :
* Prince John, Scar and Hades all suffer from feeling inferior to a much more popular older brother.
That is plenty enough for some people to start doing the wrong things to prove themselves.
* Ursula is clearly sad when her eels are killed, which proves that she loved them.
* Shan Yu sees Mulan as an equal in a way, that plenty of Chinese men wouldn't do.
Again, nobody has denied that they are villains and deserve whatever punishment they get.
But what I'm saying is that there is more depth to Disney villains than what some critics seem to believe...

[–] GlenEllyn (21219) 2 years ago

Interesting. I think there will still be villains. They just won't be as obvious as they were in the past. I watched "Encanto" with my granddaughters a couple of weeks ago. I consider Abuela the villain, even though she's not necessarily out to do evil. But the effect she has on Mirabel and other family members is pretty awful.

[–] chilidoggg (13365) 2 years ago

That sounds like the mom in "Tangled" the Disney/Pixar "Rapunzel." I thought she was scarier than Malificent.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

That is probably because Gothel is more realistic.
There are plenty of people out there in real life, who will use such methods on a kid.
You're not likely to meet an evil sorceress like Malificent though.
So I would say that your comparison makes a lot of sense.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Actually, I don't believe that we should call Abuela Alma a villain at all.
I would say that the real villains of the story are the mysterious men, who put a town on fire and killed Pedro.
Of course, I can see why people may not count them as such since we don't know anything about them.
It is never revealed who they were or what their motivation for doing these things could have been.
They seem to just be a symbol for the different atrocities, which did happen in real life in Colombia.
However, what they did is what scarred Alma and put her kids and grandkids through a generational trauma.

[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

Abuela might not be a villain, but she's an antagonist all right.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Well, this is maybe just me feeling sympathy for Abuela after we find out how much pain she must have felt.
But I don't think that she's an antagonist.
This story is not about beating or defeating any particular person.
But I would say that it rather is about healing a family with a generational trauma.
However, it is true that Abuela's perfectionism hurt Bruno and Mirabel and Luisa and nearly hurt Isabela as well.
And I feel that even her relationship with Pepa was more toxic than it should have been.
So I guess that it comes down to what your definition of an antagonist is...

[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

She's the kind of antagonist of a soap opera or tv drama, not an action movie. In most soap opera it's not about beating or defeating (physically) the antagonist either. But just showing that they were wrong or something like that.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Right, but I never meant that the beating and defeating has to be directly physical.
It could be that the protagonist simply wins and can stop the antagonist in the end anyway...

[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

That's literally what happens in the end.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Yes, and no.
I think I must say that "Encanto" has more layers than that.
There are the mysterious men, who for we don't know what reason burned the old town and then killed Pedro.
But other than that, I don't believe that there are any antagonists in that story.
Except maybe if you count a generational trauma as an abstract antagonist.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Too bad, because the villains are frequently my favorite characters. They're generally the uninhibited, witty, and bitchy ones, and sometimes they're downright camp! They're so much more fun than the good heroes and heroines.

No wonder so many recent Disney movies are flat and uninteresting, they lack the spark of a Cruella DeVille, an Ursula, or a Gaston.

[–] actionkamen (23176) 2 years ago

Or a Scar.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

He's definitely my favorite character in the movie! As with so many Disney villains, he's the only character in his film with anything amusing to say, or any wit.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

I see what you mean.
But I must say that while the heroes and heroines are ultimately good-hearted, they are seldom perfect.
That was becoming old-fashioned already in the 1950s and is hardly a thing at all these days.
But it's true that we love to hate a traditional Disney villain.
We have to hope that new ones will appear in future movies soon enough.
And really, there were several Disney movies without a villain in the past as well.
It is not like every story needs such a character, after all.
And yet, they returned to having villains again and again and never had to regret that decision.

[–] jriley555 (7192) 2 years ago

Or the tiger and the snake in jungle-book. Great pair of predators.

[–] sslssg (29884) 2 years ago

Maleficent was one of the best Disney villains, and then they made her sympathetic.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

This week, I managed to finally watch "Coco" with my niece.
It is really a good movie, but I guess that I have to say that I still prefer "Encanto".
However, "Coco" is maybe the latest movie from Disney or Pixar to have a traditional villain.
And I was reminded of how much that character type would be missed if it disappeared.
Let us hope that the villains return in at least some movies in the future...

But when I think about that article, I think I have to bring up another point as well.
And that is that I don't agree with Emily Kavanagh that the villain is the only conflict in the Renaissance movies.
Usually, we still wonder how the two lovers will be able to stay together.
Because that is still often a problem to solve even after the villain is defeated.
Ariel can't be with Eric as long as she's a mermaid, right?
Is it really true that Beast is dead?
How is the poor street rat Aladdin supposed to be with a princess like Jasmine?
Is it possible for Hercules to be with Megara after he became a god again?
Will Jane really leave Tarzan and go back to England?
So really, "Coco" is hardly that revolutionary in that regard.
Even if Miguel is too young to get a love interest, it is not like he's the first protagonist with two issues to solve...

[–] ElizabethJoestar (945) 2 years ago

I've often felt Disney and Pixar are trying to emulate Studio Ghibli with a lack of overt villains. It can be interesting, but I love me a good villain. It annoys me when people act like the only good antagonists are "well-meaning" or whatever. There's room for both complicated antagonists and gleefully wicked villains in movies.

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

I contend that it is linked to this wacky left concept of restorative justice. It explains why lefties don't want to expel kids from school or lock up criminals. They don't want to acknowledge that some people are inherently evil. I contend that there are people who will NEVER stay out of trouble and will need to be locked up BEFORE they kill somebody. The lefties who believe in restorative justice want to do away with incarceration and school expulsions.

This restorative justice concept appeared in Spider-Man: No Way Home. It also explains all these movies like Cruella and Ratchet. I believe they are trying to justify bad behavior by these villains. I'm just concerned that creative directors are trying to inject politics into entertainment for young adults. Kids will naively believe that incarceration is wrong until they are victimized.

https://www.edutopia.org/article/what-heck-restorative-justice-heather-wolpert-gawron

https://wagingnonviolence.org/2021/12/the-new-spider-man-movie-is-a-lesson-in-restorative-justice/

https://www.morningsidecenter.org/teachable-moment/lessons/prison-abolition-and-restorative-justice

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

That was an interesting take on the subject, but I can't fully agree with it.
There are some criminals, whom 99.99 % of us want to see punished as much as it's legally possible.

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

Good point. I think everyone agrees that murderers should not be allowed to walk the streets but people would certainly disagree over the length of the sentence or even capital punishment. I also know that a lot of crimes go unsolved so the guy who is picked up for battery could be a murderer walking among us.

I'm a hardcore believer in inherent evil so I say lock 'em up BEFORE they kill somebody. I also think murderers should be executed STAT so they don't kill anyone again. Citizens shouldn't have to pay money to keep inmates well-fed with cable tv and amenities. The supposed woman in the article below was imprisoned TWICE for killing two people and killed a third woman at age eighty-three.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10596441/Woman-83-parole-killing-two-arrested-charged-murder-sfa.html

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

This is not supposed to be a political thread, so I won't say more than I don't support the death penalty anymore.
I prefer to pay for a murderer's upkeep in prison rather than risking that innocent people are executed.
And yes, that is very much a possibility as long as the death penalty is around.
Also, there has never been an execution here in Sweden since 1910.
We don't really think of death penalty as a serious option anymore and don't even discuss if it should return.

[–] joej2923 (2959) 2 years ago

I'm a regular on the politics board so I may have inadvertently brought up politics. I will try to keep your thread clear of off-topic political stuff like the death penalty. I might send you a private mail over the death penalty issue.

I will mention that Disney has adopted a social/political agenda with their REIMAGINE TOMORROW campaign. They are requiring all content to include underrepresented groups and I believe that means everybody but white males. It looks like any viking movie from Disney will have female lesbian jarls leading the raiding parties. The Oscars adopted a diversity/equity/inclusion quota system for Best Picture movies and it looks like the Disney standard might be even more rigorous. Disney's emphasis on more LGBTQ+ characters concerns me since the target audience for most Disney shows are children. I'm certain that most parents don't want their five-year-old exposed to a LGBTQ+ character or story arc.

https://reimaginetomorrow.disney.com/assets/DGE-INCLUSION-STANDARDS-ONE-PAGER-6-16-2119.pdf

https://nypost.com/2022/03/30/disney-executive-wants-more-lgbtqia-minority-character/

https://www.oscars.org/news/academy-establishes-representation-and-inclusion-standards-oscarsr-eligibility

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Yeah, that is what I think as well.

[–] Furienna (3330) 2 years ago

Here's a new article on the subject:
https://movieweb.com/disney-villains-where-have-they-gone/

[–] Furienna (3330) 9 months ago

Bump