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Is lying in the name of good or to protect someone/something a GOOD thing?

posted 3 years ago by TheMan18 (12520)
29 replies | jump to latest

According to Emmanuel Kant, and is he right then?

Sure, we all know that in general, lying is considered BAD, but what if it is to protect someone or somebody from harm of any kind or trouble (even deserved and legal one, OK, harboring and aiding and abetting is immoral AND illegal, and I have no REAL plan to defend it all), including undeserved one, and that you KNOW it will be the case, can that be considered a good thing?

Also, in addition to this.

People say certain matters are bad REGARDLESS of the outcome, although in over 90% of cases, it is evidenced of course that in harmful deeds for one, the outcome is nearly ALWAYS damage and something that is bad, to which I say fine, but then morally and legally wise, can we judge them BY the outcome?

Say someone gets shot and doesn't get killed OR permanently injured? Say someone steals but something very small and either later returns and replaces it or does it by mistake etc? Say victims and survivors of something horrible and wrong DO heal and do get over it, even if we DO punish offenders and whatnot, but can at least THAT factor be taken into consideration in deciding whether to give a criminal say more than 15 years in prison sentence or one below five, oh, and also maybe look into conditions etc.

And I am certainly no anti-feminist in any way NOR do I think, like any human being who is NORMAL would and should, the question of what if offender was a woman, and besides a few factors here and there (and in one FILM for instance, there was even a question of traumatic past as opposed to lesser issues like good looks, although, yeah talks of various HARSH truths aside, in life, even THAT may NOT play into the role of victim trauma etc, besides murder of course), should they be given less or equal sentences to male offending counterparts, and why or why not?

But anyways, babble and bibble aside, lying in the name of good, good or a bad thing?

[–] BullSchmidt (3189) 3 years ago

See how happy the moose is after he's had a few pints? https://tinyurl.com/yybt5dbz

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

And did someone "lie" to this moose that those pints would be bad or something, only to force the moose to try it anyway to satisfy its morbid curiosity and in a dark sort of way the moose came to the realization that those pints are great and would make her happy?

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

Had to stop half way to vomit commas. But I get the gist (I hope). It is fine to lie to preserve a greater good but how do you define "good?" It could be different than someone else's definition. I would lie to save someone's life and I lie to preserve feelings all the time. But this is cognitive dissonance because I value truth and honesty. Probably only proves that I am not a replicant.

I don't understand your questions regarding sentencing and gender.

What lines do we cross based on our perceptions and beliefs? If you thought a candidate was two Hitlers in a man suit, would you think voter fraud was justified? If you thought abortion was murder would you cheat in a similar way?

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

With regards to the last part, it was basically based in some or other ways on the idea of punishing more or less same or similar type of people including for the kinds of damages they may inflict, and whether in some cases the outcome is more severe than in others, including from who it is coming from, and if such approaches can be considered 'correct'.

Based on Kantian ethics, more or less.

Its also that - many believe that lying is always a bad thing, but is it really, depending on circumstances and the outcome?

Not sure what you mean by "If you thought abortion was murder would you cheat in a similar way?", as in, lie about someone's pregnancy?

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Besides Emmanuel Kant, we could also look at Occam Razor here too.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

No. In the same vein as the previous statement about voter fraud. If right wingers think abortion is murder then what lengths wouldn't they go to to cheat an election against a candidate they perceive as pro-choice. The same applies to the left if they think the opposition is 3.75 Hitlers then anything goes when trying to defeat them. Beliefs can be dangerous. The slippery slope (a fallacious type of reasoning, yes) is that lying for the greater good can lead to acceptance of perhaps doing anything, however vile, for the greater good. Where do people draw the line? The line is definitely moved up in the last few decades. Good will is subjective.

What if a person lies to you in order to rob you but the consequences end up inadvertently saving 100 people's lives? The greater good has been served but at the behest of ill will. There is a "good intentions" flaw in most philosophy. Two can be at odds with each other and both be Kantians, etc.

Nothing works for everyone. Cultural and physical divisions accommodate this. The trick is peace.

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

This should have been in the politics board ... God blind me.

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Actually, for the absolute most part, this was not about "politics" at all, and I didn't really touch that much if at all here on the subject of "lying politicians".

[–] tcrum (29715) 3 years ago

I don't know how you guys write this much..I've turned in term papers that were shorter. Have a beer and relax.

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Hahaha tcrum, you've managed unexpectedly to make me laugh with this, lol. :)

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

What about secret agents including secret service, CIA etc who lie by pretending to be someone else, including the fictional James Bond character and the Robert De Niro's "Meet the Parents" (and "Feebles" etc) movies, or of course Arnie's "True Lies" (1994) by James Cameron, do they do any good via this lying or at least can they be forgiven and understood here?

[–] tcrum (29715) 3 years ago

In answer to your question I think lying is ok if it hurts no one and protects someones feelings. There's no point in telling the truth if it changes nothing and hurts someone.

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Remember how, for one, among others, Bryan Ferry sang in his classic pop hit "Don't Stop the Dance" from 1985 - "Mama says truth is all that matters. Lying and deceiving is a sin. Drifting through a world that's torn and tattered. Every thought I have don't mean a thing"

[–] snepts (11123) 3 years ago

There is also "lying by omission," which one might argue isn't lying at all.

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

As Fishburne's character says in "Fled" (1996) - "No, I just didn't tell you the whole truth".

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

2 snepts - would *you* consider lying by omission to be "not lying at all"?

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Some professions, besides politicians, like lawyers also may require them to lie or exaggerate certain bits of truth to defend their clients, in those cases, its a bad thing?

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

And I know it may sound SOMEWHAT off-topic but I would like to ask this anyway - is the fact that people can be sentenced for same or similar crimes to prison for less than other people for the same crime necessarily a bad thing?

And is the fact that women and men in legal system at least are or can be treated differently than their male counterparts, particularly for same or "similar" crimes, in any way, shape or form a bad thing?

Also, is taking say someone's in the above scenario like "not too bad looks" in any way worthwhile, and the fact that, again, not saying "I agree", some people DO bring it up and even stereotypically make statements on the order of "I'll leave it to your imagination to think which ones", well, are they wrong, and regardless of TO WHAT CONCLUSION the law and the society and humanity may come to in all of this, in the name of rights, equality, justice and just plain old normality, well...

What do you think? (And please don't imply "I am being" in any way here or there unfair etc, however angry such queries MIGHT make a lot of people, for better or worse, for I am merely just EXPLORING certain matters here, without any unnecessary or necessary "finger pointings" and "justifiable" or otherwise err "knee jerk" or "MIND jerk" reactions of outrage, thank you.)

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

And of course, how we might react to all of this in REAL LIFE and in FILMS and MOVIES is a wee bit different, honestly.

I mean, for one, when I watch plenty of action movies that involve plenty of killings etc, I rarely if ever shout and protest "Those bastards x and y should NOT be allowed to get away with it, and have the police here or there" but fair enough, I can understand others thinking this in those or OTHER examples portrayed in movies. And in real life of course even MORE SO. To say the least!

[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 3 years ago

Two instances of the same crime can have different adjudication depending on endless possible circumstances ("looks" not being one of them). It's why we need judges and juries and not simply a coin operated Law Processor.

[–] chilone (17278) 3 years ago

Q. Does this dress make me look fat?

A. No. Being fat makes you look fat.

See how well that goes over.

[–] moviechatterer (13330) 3 years ago

The answer is yes.
Everyone knows that.
The real question is 'where is the line drawn?'

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

In the middle of the piece of paper with a red permanent marker pen of the Sharpie W10 brand (I still have one at home)? :) (Lol.)

[–] moviechatterer (13330) 3 years ago

Close, but its not red, its blue , its not W10 , its thin:

https://moviechat.org/tt0112194/The-Thin-Blue-Line

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

It's an OK war movie although I haven't watched it in about 15 years or so and Mallick himself has done better works. I wonder though if its theme has anything to do with what we're discussing here, as in, was the movie really asking a question along the lines of "where to draw the line?" albeit during a period of World War 2?

[–] moviechatterer (13330) 3 years ago

told you, its not red.
You're thinking of The thin Red line. :)

The Thin blue line is where the boys in blue draw the line..
More relevent to the subject at hand

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

Oh yes I have heard of the Thin Blue Line show but never actually got around to watch it.

[–] johnmarti59 (2356) 3 years ago

That depends on how you feel about it.

[–] TheMan18 (12520) 3 years ago

On a slightly related but otherwise totally different topic, I have to admit that in the last 5 years or so, no matter how many arguments and tellings off I have received from people online in the process, and even say parents and people in real life, or not for that matter, I must declare that I personally have...

Developed an inordinately passionate obsession with such subjects as the differences between real life and movies, men and women when it comes to certain bad deeds and even criminal offenses, human sexuality, internet message board forums and people's reactions and discussions and related approaches to such with regards to various subject matter, why we feel certain way about some things and not the other and if its right even if it is, whether or not in life we can just relax and be happy and take life easy etc, and also about say NOT being in any way different towards ORIGINAL subjects but if in related bits, like in case of the Danish acclaimed movie "The Hunt" (2012) by Thomas Vinterberg and starring Mads Mikkelsen, we can, respectably, as tough as it may be, look at the other side differently and judge it on a SEPARATE basis and not say constantly think "Oh, but the other example is what is really happening etc", even if the aforementioned example, on its own OR in context of the original issue, is rather, perhaps, rare and small, even if still possible etc.

Hope its not too troublesome overall though. )