MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > Inconvenient Truths and Realities: When ...

Inconvenient Truths and Realities: When I Tell Black People and Women How Little I Earn...


...they're shocked, especially when I advise them of my very good law degree from a top-ranking university, and my post-graduate legal qualification, not to mention my vast pro bono experience.

They, at least temporarily, feel the need to clam up and stop talking about 'white privilege' and 'male privilege', and I see in their faces how uncomfortable they feel having their perceived wisdom being inadvertently challenged by my real-world experiences.

I bring this up today because I found in one of my extended WhatsApp groups a message regarding an internship open exclusively for black and minority ethnic individuals, with far less experience and qualifications than myself, and a starting salary of 27K which is far more than many of the full-time jobs I have done (in my experience, internships tend to be unpaid, even for people like me who come from poor and working-class backgrounds).

So, I leave it up to the usual suspects here like doggiedaddy, ultravioletx, Frogarama and others to please tell me how this is justified, and how we can still use terms like 'white mediocrity' and 'white privilege' in view of a situation in which a black and minority ethnic individual, potentially from a wealthier background than my own, is given an automatic job at a far higher salary than me that requires less experience and fewer qualifications than the jobs I do, occasionally for free!

Sorry if I'm a 'racist' for bringing this topic up, but if you can coherently and reasonably tell me why I'm 'wrong', go for it. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt you can.

reply

Do you just walk up to random black and female people and share this or are these people that you actually know?

If the former than I suspect I know why they clam up and act all uncomfortable!

reply

With all due respect Shogun, that's a silly question to ask.

I know we established yesterday that I am apparently more polite and open than a lot of you when it comes to speaking to complete strangers, but no I don't just walk up to random people who I don't know and start speaking about my salary.

I'm talking about people I know, or people who I meet in a public or professional capacity, who ask me questions relating to my work and my financial circumstances. Personally, I'd prefer not to divulge such information, out of shame and a sense of politeness that says 'one should never discuss what one earns', but if someone asks me a question, I feel obliged to answer it.

Funnily enough, I suspect they often end up regretting asking me such questions once they've asked them, or their brains are whirring and trying to come up with a rational justification for how someone who is more educated than them, older than them, more skilled than them, harder-working than them, and who comes from a poorer and less advantaged background than them, can still be doing so badly and without anyone giving them a helping hand, as they seem to be getting.

I think it puts them through a weird sort of cognitive dissonance, albeit one that probably doesn't last terribly long (seeing that most individuals tend to be shallower and less willing to get to grips with their own responsibility, guilt and sense of privilege than I am).

reply

On the the 'Silly Question' scoreboard you are kicking my ass, 50-1

Seriously though, you claim a higher education and experience and it doesn't cost me a thing to believe you...plus, I dig you Malko, I may be alone in saying that😉

So what's going on with you?
I don't have your stated credentials yet things are swell here
What's up?
You sound like you fell on your ass at some point...Get up sport!!

reply

I never mocked your credentials Shogun (I don't even know what they are).

I was talking about the people who ask me how much I earn and are then surprised to discover how badly I'm struggling. Not you.

reply

Not mocking, jeez!

You have a very good law degree from a top university and extensive pro bono work... that's more than I have!
I'm a community college product, not bad but not great, went to night school in fact and worked during the day so you got me beat in the education department!

Why are you struggling?
Honest question and don't deflect, you keep bringing this stuff up

reply

I've gone for good jobs and kept getting rejected.

People with my illness don't take rejection very well. It is too painful for us to cope with.

So I avoid applying for jobs that match my qualifications, meaning I end up having to survive by doing low paid jobs, which I hate (not because I dislike the work or my colleagues, I don't, but because I can't stand being judged and looked down upon by others, and it means I feel I'm wasting my potential).

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I know I can come across as a salty asshole here, but in the real world people compliment me on my people skills (admittedly, they've improved since my youth, which is when I used to be much smarter and more successful academically, but a much bigger prick in person).

Maybe if I started applying again I'd do better, but I've been out of my field for so long, I'd have to retrain, and I don't have the cash for that.

reply

I've said it every polite way possible so here is the hard truth...

•Get your shit together and stop blaming others

•The only Men that piss and moan about other people should start taking the initiative and bettering their position

•Balls conquer, naval gazing is a waste of time, your goal is to win

•Life is a bitch but she can be ridden

•Political posts are yawn inducing..who really wants these?

•Get to work

Follow these steps as many others have and you will be fine buddy👍

reply

Please do not insult me Shogun (i.e. "Get your shit together and stop blaming others")

You claim to be my friend, so this passive-aggression will not stand.

reply

Anger is the first step to gaining your footing...soon you will be kicking ass!!
Go on...

reply

I'm not angry. I'm frustrated.

reply


Amen, Shogie!

😎

reply

$27,000 as a starting salary is not high. Or do you mean pounds ??

reply

I mean pounds sterling.

So approx. 35K in US dollars.

reply

that is still low.

reply

For an intern!?!

Most interns don't get paid AT ALL.

reply

I thought you were beyond the intern stage.

reply

I was, but I had to go back to being an intern.

reply

Young lawyers in Canada make about $70,000-$100,000 per year.

reply

Good for them.

Unfortunately, I had to semi-quit and go to ground because too many of my pro-bono cases weren't going the way I wanted.

Even when I won my cases, my clients didn't get the justice they deserved/wanted, and too many of my clients' lives went to shit even after we'd succeeded.

I grew disenchanted and felt bad about my work. I didn't feel I was making a positive difference.

reply

Real Estate Law!
That's the way to go

reply

Not for me !! And I'm not a kid with his first job.

reply

I'm a woman and I'm not at all shocked to hear that.

reply

What's that supposed to mean?

If I am such a massive beneficiary of white and male privilege, and I work harder and do longer hours than my colleagues, and have higher qualifications than many of them, without the privileged socioeconomic background they do (meaning, I had to work harder than them to get those qualifications), why isn't it shocking to you that I'm so low paid?!?

reply

Because I'm already aware that's how things work. Why would I not be aware, simply because I'm a woman?

reply

You are much smarter than the above poster

reply

You're a troll.

reply

Me ?? Why ?

reply

You're the one who brought woman into this. Not me.

Where have I implied that you don't understand how things work simply because you're a woman?

Where have I implied that you don't understand how things work, period?

Maybe I misread you, but it seemed that you were making an underlying attack on me (i.e. 'I'm not surprised to hear that you're so poor, despite your qualifications etcetera, because I think you're an idiot'). If you weren't implying that, I apologise. I'm used to people being hostile (see captainbucky's post below), so I occasionally expect the worst.

reply

Read your thread title...

reply

Here’s a philosophy that helped change my life.
“It’s not what happens that determines your life’s future. It’s what you do about what happens.
All of us are in like a little sailboat, and it’s not the blowing of the wind that determines your destination. It’s the set of the sail.
The same wind blows on us all. The wind of disaster, the wind of opportunity, the wind of change, the wind when it’s upside down, the wind when it’s favorable and unfavorable.
The same wind blows on us all. The economic wind, the social wind, the political wind. The same wind blows on everybody.
The difference in where you arrive in one year, three years, five years, the difference in arrival is not the blowing of the wind but the set of the sail.” - Jim Rohn

reply

The same wind does now blow on everyone. That's feelgood bullshit designed to cover-up systemic unfairness.

I should add a very important fact that I did not mention in my OP.

I have several mental illnesses, many that were first diagnosed when I was in pre-adolescence.

And thus, I have been the victim on several occasions of abeist discrimination.

Maybe one day, after we've sorted out systemic racism and systemic sexism, we'll move on to tackling systemic ableism, and thus start guaranteeing automatic GOOD jobs to the disabled, they way some companies and institutions now do with POC and women. But I suspect I'll be old, if not dead, by then, and so it won't be much use to me and my life will thus have been wasted.

reply

Despite several mental illnesses you were able to obtain a law degree. I think that is impressive.

reply

Thank you. That is kind, and I'll admit those types of words do help, so don't think I'm not grateful. Still, it's not that impressive when you consider how little I've achieved with my qualifications.

reply

What do you think you could do to change this situation?

reply

I don't know. I've exhausted many of the options, and ironically, for someone with mental illnesses, I really do live by the idea that the first sign of madness is doing the exact same thing and expecting a different result.

reply

How would you like to see the points raised in your OP resolved?

reply

I'd like to see positive discrimination for the mentally ill, like we see for other oppressed and struggling groups.

We see so much in the media these days about 'mental illness', but nothing positive seems to get done.

Stop piddling about with targeting social media, and talking about therapy and anti-depressants. Speaking as a real-life mentally ill person, what we want our good jobs, so that we can make good money, so that we can rent/purchase good homes, and have good partners and eventually have good marriages and good families. Sort that stuff out and let us take care of our own lives and you won't have to waste time and money on doctors and drugs.

As a side note, I'm tired of rich people saying 'money can't make you happy.' BULL SHIT! Those types of people are clearly beyond help and should be ignored and forgotten about. Instead society should help poor mentally ill people like me (maybe we could have some of the money those miserable rich sods don't seem to derive any positive benefit from - because I can sure as fuck guarantee that if I had their money, my mental illness would be mostly sorted).

reply

This guy's Wind philosophy Blows.

reply

Am I the only one who sees this from the standpoint of supply and demand. Keep graduating lawyers when business is maxed out means declining salary. It's no longer 1975, 1985, or 1995, or whatever you perceived from the past where a law degree was a ticket to riches. Firms will pay what it takes to get the work done at a high quality level and no more than that. If the work is getting done at 35,000 dollars per year why pay 40,000 dollars? I always feared that if I got an education degree that would be the day they put a television monitor in every classroom sending millions of teachers to the unemployment line. We as a society are kind of meh when somebody else has their gig messed up by current trends but have it happen to us then we expect every available shoulder will want to be cried upon.

reply

I'm not complaining about my salary, period. I'm complaining about my salary compared to other lawyers/people with the same experience, skills and qualifications as me.

The law is still very lucrative, particularly for someone from my lowly background, and I don't even want to be mega-rich. I just want to get by. But I'm barely doing that at present.

reply

Where do you live, for #1?
For #2, I understand you may feel discriminated against, but I guess it's the fall out of YEARS and decades of discrimination against Blacks and Women. If you are a smart person (hey, even a dummy like me went to law school for a year. That didn't work out so well), I'm thinking you will be fine in the long run. Some entities want to make sure they are giving the chance for historically down-trodden groups. It may be frustrating and it doesn't make you a racist or a misogynist. Keep circulating that sterling resume from that top-ranking university. You are bound to get an olde boy White only firm interested in you. Work on that handshake !

reply

I don't want to benefit from white or male privilege. White and male privilege should NOT exist. They're hateful. And I actually understand why we need forms of affirmative action to counterbalance those forms of systemic privilege.

I support affirmative action. I've even voted for it.

But what some people don't understand (I'm not referring to you here), is that there are various other forms of discrimination apart from racism and sexism, and they aren't being considered and addressed.

Also, the biggest beneficiaries of white and male privilege tend to be wealthy and well-connected men from powerful and privileged families. If you're some white boy growing up with a single parent on a council estate or some glorified shack in Appalachia you're probably no better off than many black people and/or women. And if you've got a disability, mental or physical, or you're the victim of some form of abuse, or you're on the LGBTQ spectrum, you've probably got added issues to contend with, even if you're a white male.

I think you understand that. You're a very smart poster. One of the more reliably smart ones here. But I needed to make it clear what the grievance is.

I'm not blaming black people or women. I'm saying that they have been the unfair victims of discrimination. I'm simply saying that they're not necessarily the only ones.

reply

Thank you for having some regard for me. I truly appreciate it. I guess one thing I'll say is don't try to change things you can't control. Change what You can control. This is not an original thought. I just hope you can continue to do good work and not be too concerned with the Bottom Line. I never reached my potential (such as it were) but I stitch together $$ one way or the other. Had to take in roommates and thank god it's worked out o-k. Some people might think this would be a great comedown but we make it work. Hard times for a lot of people.

And don't be concerned with what others think. This does not lead in a healthy direction.

reply

It's seriously ridiculous to assume that any demographic is supposed to think the same. Yes, there are black Trump supporters. Yes, there are male feminists. Yes, you can be gay and be homophobic. This entire mentality that we have that we must all think the same because we share a same character traits is extremely closed-minded. It's ridiculous to assume that because you're white, you're immediately earning a pretty penny. How can we be individuals if we're being grouped?

reply

I agree.

But if I'm white, I'm male, I'm educated, I've got decent public people skills (never mind the complete headcase I really am behind-the-scenes, as most of you here are all too well aware), I'm experienced, and so on, I suspect most average people would expect me to be doing well.

Unless I was a complete slacker. And I'm not. I don't even play video games.

reply

I've noticed that over the years, someone is always trying to be a victim. I have bad stuff happen to me all the time, but I'm not going to blame or judge anybody unless they're directly the reason.

reply

Yeah, I'll hold my hands up.

I play the victim. At least I'm honest about it.

Many people do it, and to be perfectly honest, I don't blame them. Many of them deserve to be pissed off with their lot in life, and if they can get someone to take notice and do something about it, more power to them.

I don't have a problem with people saying 'I'm stuck here, and I need help'. My problem is with those people who refuse to see that others are struggling.

reply

Bingo.

reply

There's a lot of misconceived perceptions of different kinds. In the example you state it is race based. Non whites & women have it drummed into them that the white heterosexual male has it made. And all we have to do to get where we want is call someone and we're in.

It's the same situation I realized at work. For years I thought my position was pretty crappy. A few years ago I started to actually open my eyes and do some research. I found that I am on more money than some of the people who I thought had prestigious jobs. One guy wanted to be promoted so badly he took a backwards step and left his position for another one that actually paid less but required more work! He saw the other position as having more potential which it did as he has since been promoted again.

Anyway, my point is, the grass is always greener on the other side, especially when you have been brought up to believe your white neighbour has it made.

reply

I quit a job a while back that was well-paid. It was my first job post-college, and I learned later that I was getting paid more than some of my colleagues who had been working at the place for longer (then again, I had more qualifications than them, I'd been in the specific role longer than them, and I was promoted very early on, by a female boss I hasten to add). Suffice to say, they weren't exactly happy.

But it wasn't the job I wanted. I was well-paid. I liked my colleagues. And I could afford the stuff I wanted. But I hated the industry and what it stood for, and I wanted out, so I quit. Plus, I was studying part-time for the career I did want.

Unfortunately, no-one had ever given me credit for following my integrity and for working hard (i.e. working full-time plus over-time during the week, and attending post-grad school on the weekends), when everyone was slacking during the week/had their weekends off, or were studying full-time (mainly because someone, most likely a relation, was paying for their education).

reply