MovieChat Forums > John Wick: Chapter 3 - Parabellum (2019) Discussion > LOL at "armor-piercing shotgun slugs"

LOL at "armor-piercing shotgun slugs"


12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of what makes a good armor-piercing projectile. They are relatively big (large frontal area) and relatively slow. For piercing armor, a small diameter, pointy projectile (such as a spitzer bullet), at high velocity works best, for reasons which should be obvious. This is why typical soft body armor such as IIIA will stop typical handgun and shotgun rounds, including 12 gauge slugs, but typical rifle rounds go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Ironically, there's a common-as-dirt cartridge that's far more effective against body armor than 12 gauge slugs, i.e., 5.56 NATO (which is the standard cartridge for the equally common AR-15/M16 rifle platform). Any armor that can stop 5.56 NATO will inherently stop a 12 gauge slug, even if the slug is steel rather than lead, with ease.

There's no such thing as soft body armor that can stop 5.56 NATO. In order to stop it you need thick, hard plates made of steel or ceramic (III+ at a minimum, and that's only against non-AP rounds; the best 5.56 NATO AP rounds [tungsten core, e.g., M995 AP4] will defeat even level IV if the barrel is long enough), and in practical terms, those can only be worn on the front and rear of your torso. If you tried covering your arms, shoulders, legs, pelvic region, and neck with them, you'd have next to zero mobility.

If the movie makers had asked someone who knew what they were talking about, instead of their secretary, when Wick's character asked for something more effective against armor, he would have been given something that can easily defeat any body armor in existence, including level IV, such as the 7.62 NATO M948 SLAP round.

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"Um, ackchyually, 12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of blah blah blah blah blaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

These movies are essentially video comic books for gamers. Get over it, nerd.

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Your non sequitur is dismissed.

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Your autism is noted.

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Your non sequitur is dismissed, simpleton.

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Yeah, it's a ridiculous movie, not worth watching. Is that your point? ;-)

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This is the film series where the main character goes to a sommelier to obtain weaponry for a hit.

I'm solidly aware of numerous absurdities in the film.

But when I got to that point in this film, in my mind, I'm just like hehe, weapon power up. But that's what Parabellum is tbh, video game in movie form.

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A lot of what you say is correct, but a lot also isn't.

Yes, Spitzer rounds pierce better than round nose. Yes, low brass has pressure (and therefore velocity) limitations. Yes, when you're trying to optimize for the most penetration possible you want high velocity and smaller diameter.

But when it comes to the question of "will a shotgun defeat soft body armor", we can apply those same ideas to say "yeah, it probably will".

First, copper slugs are already made. Due to how much lighter they are compared to lead, they have significantly higher speed at identical pressures. Due to being significantly harder than lead, they spend less energy deforming.

Second, there are already numerous videos publicly available on youtube (some as old as 5 years old) showing copper and brass slugs defeating Levell 3A armor (and some defeating level 3 steel plates). A few even use hollow point brass and copper slugs with cuts to facilitate flower petal expansion.

If we apply all of your logic... then the fact that copper and brass hollowpoint slugs already defeat 3A body armor... its virtually certain that round nosed steel slugs would do it, too.

But we will never really know. Because most people filming videos testing firearms against body armor are based in the US. And solid steel projectiles are federally classified as "armor piercing", regardless of their ability to penetrate armor.

So even if by some miracle a faster, harder round wouldnt penetrate deeper than rounds that already defeat level 3A... the rounds would still be classified in both US law, as well as New York State law... and in universe, this happened in Manhattan.

These slugs are armor piercing, and it's not crazy or inaccurate to say so.

Yes, I would rather have 5.56 in that situation. Yes, it was not really a good call from a tactical point of view. But if my time in the military taught me anything, it's that even the best people in the real world sometimes make poor or ill informed choices.

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"A lot of what you say is correct, but a lot also isn't."

Everything I said is correct, else I wouldn't have said it.

"But when it comes to the question of "will a shotgun defeat soft body armor", we can apply those same ideas to say "yeah, it probably will"."

No, the ones shown and described in this movie definitely won't.

"Second, there are already numerous videos publicly available on youtube (some as old as 5 years old) showing copper and brass slugs defeating Levell 3A armor (and some defeating level 3 steel plates). A few even use hollow point brass and copper slugs with cuts to facilitate flower petal expansion."

I've already addressed such videos in this thread; they are irrelevant. If you want something relevant, find a video of a steel, roundnose, 12 gauge slug (and no, a smaller diameter slug in a 12 gauge sabot is not a 12 gauge slug, obviously) in a low-brass shell defeating body armor. I already posted a link to a video where some 12 gauge slugs that were marketed as "armor-piercing", and used a steel projectile, failed to penetrate lowly level IIA body armor. And, they used high-brass shells, so they had a better chance of doing it than those laughable prop slugs in the movie:

https://youtu.be/iKfZRLfq8F4

"If we apply all of your logic... then the fact that copper and brass hollowpoint slugs already defeat 3A body armor... its virtually certain that round nosed steel slugs would do it, too."

Wrong (see above). "12 gauge" denotes a diameter, and slugs that are smaller diameter than 12 gauge but use a sabot to allow them to fit tightly in a 12 gauge shotgun's bore, are not actually 12 gauge slugs, obviously. The same thing applies to e.g., a .22 caliber bullet in a .308 sabot, such as in the Remington Accelerator .30-06 cartridges - https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002026387 . Those aren't .308 caliber bullets, obviously.

The large diameter of a 12 gauge slug is a problem for penetration because they are VERY light-for-caliber, which gives them a very low sectional density. You can solve that by using a smaller diameter slug surrounded by a 12 gauge sabot, though it's a stupid thing to do if you already have access to a centerfire rifle, because you typically get better accuracy, higher magazine capacity, and more compact ammunition with a rifle. The main reason for the existence of sabot slugs is for people who live in areas where deer hunting is restricted to shotguns. In any case, the slugs shown and described in this movie aren't sabot slugs, and they aren't even in high-brass shells.

"And solid steel projectiles are federally classified as "armor piercing", regardless of their ability to penetrate armor."

Utterly irrelevant. This is about whether or not they would actually defeat body armor, not about what some buffoons classify them as.

"These slugs are armor piercing, and it's not crazy or inaccurate to say so."

No, they aren't.

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