MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > The big picture says: Okay YES, Lucasfil...

The big picture says: Okay YES, Lucasfilm/Disney brass made a cluster of poor choices (TLJ, Solo, Ep. 9)

posted 7 years ago by Frogarama (12942)
30 replies | jump to latest

At first I was thinking to make a topic speculating on exactly WHY Rian Johnson, with his slim resume and lack of experience, was handed a huge Star Wars movie... Compare that to Empire Strikes Back, which was handed off to a respected and seasoned director. Seriously, go to IMDb and look at Irvin Kershner's resume before ESB, if you're not already familiar with him.

But then I looked at the big picture of ALL THREE Star Wars movies we have on hand right now...

The Last Jedi: Handed off to someone who had only made 3 movies, none of which were big-budget projects, and one of which was a badly plotted gimmicky mess.

Solo, A Star Wars Story: Handed off to a pair of guys that made a few comedies and kids movies. THEN SUBSEQUENTLY FIRED (during production!).

Episode 9: Handed off to a newbie director who did one highly acclaimed movie based on a classified ad that went viral, and after that randomly got to direct Jurassic World (and he did a good job there). THEN SUBSEQUENTLY FIRED.

The fired directors were replaced with: Ron Howard, and back to J.J. Abrams. Yes, Lucasfilm brass got their heads out of their asses and realized they should go back to using seasoned directors who know what they're doing.

So yeah, they're probably going to take back Rian Johnson's new Star Wars trilogy too.

[–] Nipsey_Russell (1339) 7 years ago

Unfortunately the Damage is already done

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

It's quite interesting too, how Last Jedi added almost nothing and only subtracted....

Imagine if the end of The Force Awakens was this: Luke was already dead, the Resistance got almost completely destroyed at the same time as the Republic, there was no Snoke, and Rey was already known to be the daughter of random junk traders, thus there were no interesting story threads.

That's basically where we are now. The only things added was a love interest for Finn, and Rey has those Jedi books. It was basically one toe forward, four steps back.

Fairly competent movie, but so many lazy choices.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

Some of that could be explained away by Abrams in IX though. For example, it's entirely possible that Ren told Rey she was a nobody to make her feel isolated and easier to turn. It might not be true at all. Also, there's no reason that IX can't fill in the back-story of Snoke. And even Luke's death isn't such a big loss if he appears as a Force ghost.

Basically, I think it's potentially redeemable, but Abrams will have to write the best script he's ever done.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Yeah I think Abrams is going to get revenge on Rian Johnson, and undo things he did.

Luke knows something about Snoke, for sure. He knew of Snoke's influence when training Ben, so he could easily give us at least some context for Snoke, if not a backstory.

I think it would be interesting if Rey was another "Force conception" like Anakin, but with no parents. So when she said her parents were "Nobody," she may not have realized that this was LITERAL, and then Kylo just fed into that by lying about them even existing in the first place.

After all, when she was down in the cavern, she asked to see her family... And what did she see? HERSELF. That of course makes me suspect Rian is setting up having Rey be a pure Force entity.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

Pure Force entity? That could be cool.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

No more Mary Sue complaints after something like that.

[–] ReturnOfWhiskey (70) 7 years ago

shut up kermit, Rey is and will always be a blatant Mary Sue

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

And Luke would be a Marty Stu in your logic, with his miraculous Jedi development over about 6 years of his life with no more than 3 days worth of very limited training that somehow made him better than Darth Vader. Luke was also far too old to train (even Anakin was too old to begin training and he was 9 years younger than Luke was in ANH). Luke never even got training on lightsaber fight techniques, yet he beat his father who had been fighting with sabers longer than Luke had been alive!!!

Ah, but no one cared about these Stu/Sue labels until Rey came around, because she has a vagina and that makes you insecure. Poor little boy.

Although, maybe one day maybe you'll also understand that the Mary Sue and Marty Stu designations simply can't apply to magical superhuman characters (luckily, or else Superman and Supergirl would be the stupidest characters in existence according to you).

Maybe if there were super-strict limitations imposed on this fictional world, but that's just not the case. The Force is always being expanded and added to, and there is no "ultimate standard" for how powerful a Force user can be or how quickly they can develop or how naturally talented they might be.

Rey at least had examples to learn from. She only Force-pulled after Kylo did it in front of her. She only get into his mind after he did it to her. A Jedi Mind Trick is basically that same thing, but in reverse. The movie makes pains to show her "learning by example" but you couldn't be bothered to pay attention because you want everything spoon-fed to you on a shiny platter.

I guess that's what happens when someone lacks logical deduction skills. Good luck with that in life, by the way.

[–] ReturnOfWhiskey (70) 7 years ago

Ummm, yea. Rey is and will always be a Mary Sue, Kermit.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

And that is obviously the extent of your thought processes.

I haven't yet heard a Mary Sue whiner say anything remotely resembling intelligent thoughts.

[–] ReturnOfWhiskey (70) 7 years ago

Miss Piggy not giving it up for u lately, Kermit?

[–] Gastonian (946) 7 years ago

I previously said 1 step forward, 2 steps back. But you're right. More like 4 steps back. There really is nothing left to look forward to. No unresolved threads to speculate about, and even if there were, with the choices made in this film no one would bother speculating. That's the biggest sin of the film, it left you not wanting or caring to see what happens next.

The only thing that might have been interesting would be to see how Leia developed but we all know how that turned out.

[–] Devilman (445) 7 years ago

I think it has something to do about controlling the overall production. The more experienced means someone who would stands for themselves resulting in more resistance against certain studio/producer directions.

The Last Jedi was directed and written by Rian Johnson I could go and say he might be a good director but he's NO way a good writer the film is full of plot holes and badly written scenes and forced comedy. Overall the studio doesn't care it's all about how much money the film makes and by today's taste and standards it's making a fortune for them for a bad movie.

I'm sure after a few months we'll see a change in direction towards the next movie all the blame will be shifted at Rian Johnson for ruining JJ's basic plot. He's going to end-up as a scrap goat.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

"controlling the overall production"

Exactly -- Get a newbie in there who will follow orders.

Then the ones in charge didn't even read Rian's script, apparently, or one of them might have said "Hey this script is already going a bit too long (original cut was 3 hours!) but we noticed your Finn & Rose subplot is completely unnecessary... Maybe that should be reworked so they are involved in the main plot instead."

They wanted oversight and then they didn't even do quality control. Useless subplots are the kinds of things that get scripts thrown in the trash can, they are a mark of amateur writing.

[–] jareduf (48) 7 years ago

Good post. Should of either had experienced writers/directors or kept Abrams for all 3 movies. How did Disney let TLJ be released when it is not only poorly written but completely dismissed E7. Terrible job by Disney and despite their bs claims that trolls are trying to bring the movie down, the trilogy is probably irreparable at this point. Unfortunately fans are the biggest losers.

[–] Devilman (445) 7 years ago

I think they never cared about how the script goes Star Wars makes good money even if it was bad they'll be making hundreds of millions of dollar from box-office and other merchandise.

The sequel trilogy is big loss for fans but they can still ignore Disney era trilogy and stick to EU alternatives for example "The Thrawn Trilogy" which was a very solid continuation of the Original Trilogy.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Interesting... Disney's re-canonizing of EU characters has included Thrawn:

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/theater-arts/star-wars-thrawn-author-timothy-zahn-hints-villain-future-article-1.3243418

[–] AP (5260) 7 years ago

You seem to believe JJ Abrams is a seasoned and celebrated director. He drected five movies, all of which were based around the works of others: Mission Impossible 3, two Star Trek flicks, Super 8 (original but a HUGE homage to Spielberg), and Force Awakens. As a director, I find him servicable but not great. It took a few years but people quickly found his gimmick: set up a bunch of mysteries and explain nothing. It is all flash and no substance. He is better as a producer imo.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Yes but all four of those before Force Awakens are well-made big-budget movies -- That's not to say I like them all, especially not that dumb Super 8 and both Treks, but I can't deny they are all very well crafted both technically and in terms of plot structure.

Abrams has a TON of experience overall, both in movies and on TV. He's created highly respected shows (Felicity and Alias, I won't count Lost), and has a LOT of experience writing, which he's been doing professionally since 1990.

[–] AP (5260) 7 years ago

He does have experience creatively I’ll give you that. He didn’t have me excited when he was announced.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

I had a bad feeling about Abrams back before TFA as well, since the only thing I liked from him was Mission Impossible 3.

The fact that he pleasantly surprised me is what gave me hope for Rian Johnson, who I worried about too... But Rian turned in a movie that I find to be on the verge of becoming great, if only he had tightened up the script and the plot structure, especially removing the amateur-level problems.

[–] AP (5260) 7 years ago

I liked Looper alright and I really liked Brick, but those were very small indie flicks, so it would be hard to tell if he could handle the weight of something like Star Wars. As far as visuals go, I was more impressed by certain shots in TLJ such as Snoke's busted ship after Holdo's kamikaze attack (physics of the scene aside) and I liked Luke's return at Crait.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Yes the kamikaze attack was beautifully crafted, a very nice moment.

I like pretty much everything with Luke/Rey, Rey/Kylo, Luke/Kylo, Kylo/Snoke, Rey/Kylo/Snoke. All that stuff was definitely very strong. I also smiled a lot when Kylo was shouting "more, MORE" as they fired on Luke.

And in terms of visuals, I might just have to credit Snoke with being the most impressive and most photorealistic CGI that I have seen in a movie yet. I read that the work they did on rendering his face wouldn't have been possible even in 2015 when Force Awakens was released (someone gave me that link recently, maybe it was you actually!).

I also enjoyed the way he was portrayed, and frankly I find it a good call to handle his fate the way it was handled, even though it was clearly tied into Rian Johnson's anti-creative theme of "let the past die, kill it if you have to," which seems to be how he approached the legacy handed to him from Force Awakens. Seriously, he didn't exactly build on ANYTHING, and his movie is almost completely subtractive.

As for my use of "anti-creative," I read an interview with Rian Johnson where he defended not giving Snoke any backstory, and what Rian said was literally just a terrible excuse for him not being able to come up with anything good. It's right from Rian's mouth and it further chipped away at the amount of respect I have for him as a writer.

I mean let's compare to Empire Strikes Back... Vader was given a backstory in six words: No, I am your father.

THE EFFING MILLENIUM FALCON WAS GIVEN A BACKSTORY IN EMPIRE STRIKES BACK!

But the galaxy-manipulating villain in Last Jedi wasn't worth it, apparently. That's lazy. The Emperor may not have had a real backstory before the prequels, but we at least know what emperors are and it's obvious that he "rose to power" in some political fashion.

Snoke wasn't even given a CONTEXT.

Still, Snoke was awesome in this, both in the way he spoke and the way he looked/moved.

[–] Gastonian (946) 7 years ago

They should cancel those plans. I think Rian has proven he can direct, but he can't write for shit. I can only conclude that he must have given Kathleen Kennedy her first orgasm in years and she said, do whatever you want. Now she's experiencing buyers remorse.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

Well, depends who you ask. Many posters to this board say she's a Feminazi, so not sure she'd have been interested in any ... persuasion ... Rian might have offered ...

[–] Gastonian (946) 7 years ago

Well regardless, I think we can all agree that all she cares about is money. And I have a suspicion that this one isn't going to do as well as the last.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

It won't, I'm sure of it. And yes, KK only cares about the cashola.

[–] Recognizer (386) 7 years ago

I agree on the competent directors. What is a mystery to me is why Spielberg hasn't been offered one yet?

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

Especially considering he wanted to do Return of the Jedi.

https://moviepilot.com/p/steven-spielberg-star-wars-return-of-the-jedi-director/4102768

[–] AP (5260) 7 years ago

Lucas wanted him to do one or all the prequels but he declined. Considering what Spielberg did for Indy 4, he might've lost his touch anyway.