Star Wars Doesn't Have A Plan - Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

You are obviously right. What surprises me is that so many 'fans' deny this fact.

how can one watch TFA and honestly think they had a plan to fill in all those holes?

reply

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

I actually think it’s fantastic news, creatively speaking.[/quote]

[quote]The current approach to the Star Wars franchise actually mirrors the way that George Lucas carved out the original trilogy. It was an organic process, with last-minute rewrites that ended up becoming iconic.[/quote]

[quote]Star Wars has always been about family, religion, and politics.[/quote]

[quote]But would it really be so terrible if Rey turned out to be unrelated to anyone? Does everybody in the universe have to be part Skywalker?

[quote]I think it’s safe to say that Rian Johnson can be trusted to craft a good sci-fi story.

reply

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

With the narrative mess that is called The Force Awakens, I disagree. I also disagree because 3 movies has ALWAYS been expected of Star Wars by now, and there was no way they were gonna not make 3 movies. But if you know absolutely that you're absolutely gonna make a trilogy, you have to PLAN it out, not just wing it.

The difference is Star Wars was not as HUGE back then as it is TODAY. And the very first Star Wars was written as if there wouldn't be a sequel, becuz it wasn't guaranteed. It was safely self-contained. And the organic process led to a Death Star 2.0 and Leia kissing her own brother somehow knowing all along he was her brother. Lucas was lucky these things weren't that bad. TODAY, they could've had all the time and support they needed to plan out a reliable story for a trilogy, but as I suspected since Dec 2015, they had no plan.

Family: Luke has been made to abandon his family and friends to their enemies for unfathomable reasons that TFA decided to let a future sequel tell us about.
Religion: The Jedi have been purged again offscreen and reduced to Luke who is now the new Obi-wan and Yoda. Lame rehash. Wheres GrandMaster Luke of the New Jedi Order?
Politics: JJ Abrams is shit at politics and fucked up the politics of Star Wars beyond understanding. Everything is reset to the beginning of the OT. Good guys are poor underdogs. Bad guys are omnipresent. Nothing has changed at all.

I do trust Rian Johnson BUT he has to deal with the shit that Abrams left him to deal with.

reply

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

It is basically impossible to come back from.

They even released a novel in an attempt to retcon the lame TFA script - someone obviously pointed out the thousands of holes to warrant this. The explanations for some things in it are as terrible as what is found in the film unfortunately.

reply

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

If a movie is hopelessly dependent on an external source like a novel to explain basic critical stuff, the movie is weak and cannot stand on its own.

reply

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

Yup, it still shocks me that TFA apologist use such arguments to defend the film. and as tr1p1ea stated is is "impossible to come back from." So everyone that has hopes for the next movies is either gonna be extremely disappointed or double down in their denial even more hardcore.

I really do not see anyway that The Last Jedi can satisfactorily 'fill in' all the plot problems that it is inheriting from TFA and be a good movie on its own at the same time.

For all those people that say it is a trilogy so each movie does not have to be complete, this is crap; every movie within every trilogy has an arch. Even lord of the rings which actually was written as a single narrative when the publishers broke it into 6 books each one had its own arch. TFA has no arch on its own and requires future films to give the story it told proper context. 1. that makes TFA a rubbish film and 2. it is going to make it nearly impossible for the next part of the story to be coherent, entertaining, and progress the narrative (because every thing will feel retroactively trying to fix the plot).

reply

[–] Granitodiaz (52) 7 years ago

Unlike you and me, the other star wars fans are too dumb to care.
They're blinded by love

reply

[–] LeiaOfLothlorien (1980) 7 years ago

No, Star Wars has 12% of a plan. 😌

... Sorry. I couldn't resist the Guardians of the Galaxy reference. 😂
They're all owned by Disney now, so they could be connected somehow, lol.

Anyway, back on subject, I guess that could explain a few things. It is very annoying that they threw away all of the Expanded Universe. I just started reading some of the novels, and there's good stuff in there.
I still like Force Awakens despite its flaws, and I'm looking forward to the rest of the trilogy.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I'm going to take this as good news.

The same dipshits who decided to remake "A New Hope" are NOT in charge of the next two stories!

reply

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

The problem is basic. No movie can succeed on its own creativity once you get into the fourth fifth seventh eighth sequel. Disney was smart to rehash everything. Watch what happens (disappointment) when they try to be original. Prometheus anyone?

It's like expecting Bob Dylan's son to be better at writing songs than bob Dylan. No. Just play something similar the odds of being another bob Dylan are infinitely small, and even smaller if you are the sequel.

reply

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"The problem is basic. No movie can succeed on its own creativity once you get into the fourth fifth seventh eighth sequel"

Tell that to James Bond and Star Trek. Each had over 9 movies before they started rehashing and it was better before they did. A movie like Episode 7 obviously could not stand on its own without knowing what came before, but I have never seen an example that is going to use the next film in the series to go back and retroactively explain what was needed to know in the previous installment to give it context. It is the most backwards engineered story telling I have ever seen, and it was not an effective delivery of the narrative. It hurts it more than it helps.

"Disney was smart to rehash everything. "

off course they were economically smart, no one denies that by pandering to nostalgia and modern progressive grasps at 'diversity' they were not insanely financially successful. What critics like me address is just because it was commercially smart film-making does not mean it was artistically good film-making.

" Watch what happens (disappointment) when they try to be original. Prometheus anyone?"

Prometheus was not all that original. Original is like what they did with Logan, think about that; it was like the 9th xmen film and because they did so much original ideas and story decisions it ended up not only being brilliant but (at least for me) reinvigorated a stale series.

"It's like expecting Bob Dylan's son to be better at writing songs than bob Dylan. No. Just play something similar the odds of being another bob Dylan are infinitely small, and even smaller if you are the sequel."

yes but if Bob Dylan's son did a crappy cover of one of his dad's songs everyone would say it was a crappy cover; not try to defend it by saying "well what do you expect he is not his dad." if that is the case he would do better honor to the memory of those songs by not touching them; which is what I at this point preferred disney do.

reply

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

Yeah. But Star Wars was never artistically good. The only reason you even like the OT is because nostalgia. So obviously Disney is going to capitalize on that

reply

[–] AngularTurnip (3334) 7 years ago

Nostalgia blinds people to the fact that the OT was no more pre-planned than the currently trilogy is. But since they grew up on the OT they're willing to cut the OT some slack; the current trilogy, on the other hand -- no way.

I disagree that Star Wars was never artistically good. "The Empire Strikes Back" is good. It's the only good Star Wars film there is. Star Wars' entire reputation is built on that one film. Without it I'm not sure Star Wars would enjoy the following it does today.

reply

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

Nostalgia blinds people to the fact that the OT was no more pre-planned than the currently trilogy is. But since they grew up on the OT they're willing to cut the OT some slack; the current trilogy, on the other hand -- no way.

The OT gets some slack cut because there was no guaranteed exception of a sequel or trilogy. It was entirely new. AND because Ep.IV was written to be a self-contained complete story with some wiggle room by the end and no stupid mysteries or cliffhangers reserved for a future sequel that didn't exist yet that may never get made.

With the new sequel, there has ALWAYS been an expectation of another trilogy for years. An Ep.7, 8, and 9. They had YEARS to PROPERLY pre-plan out a trilogy. But with TFA released, more people should've realized they were just winging it and crossing fingers. And TFA suffers from the poor planning.

reply

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

The thing That ticked me off is they had lots of well written novels to choose from in the expanded universe. They could have easily picked up the story thirty years later. And it didn't have to be about fighting a new empire. It could have started smaller than that. Why did they just rehash a new hope? Money. Simple answer. Once I came to that realization, I realized that it is actually
Impossible to make a fourth fifth sixth seventh eighth sequel original. Because if Disney can't even do it. It can't be done. Name a seventh sequel that is original. I heard Star Trek and James Bond be thrown around. Hogwash. Star Trek and James Bond seven were not original films. This was the best shot at it because there were actually novels written for it. And Disney couldn't risk it. DISNEY couldn't risk it. Who could then? I said Prometheus because it actually was a fresh take on the alien. And people hated it. So we will all get to watch Thor fight the hulk and megatron fight Optimus prime this summer.

At this point I am much more interested in the John wick series than Star Wars or marvel.

reply

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

"never artistically good"

I do not agree with this in the slightest.

"The only reason you even like the OT is because nostalgia"

I show the OT to my wife for the first time in 2015 when she was 24 years old. No nostalgia involved because she is not even from this country. She loved the OT. She also hated TFA, fell alseep 3 times when watching it. So Nostalgia is not the "only reason" to like star wars. They became nostalgic because they were so good they impacted the movie making business like nothing before or since I would say.

"So obviously Disney is going to capitalize on that"

They could have capitalized with out it turning into pandering and thus hurting the story. But they didn't the movie felt like it was written by a marketing PR department.

reply

[–] Benjobuff (406) 7 years ago

Yeah true. I think they should have used the novels that were already written. You're lucky your wife likes Star Wars. Mine won't even watch it. Only chick flicks and comedies for her. Yes it's true, One movie had an original story and one movie didn't that's why she fell asleep. But Disney made the calculation that better for your wife to fall asleep than miss on a huge film that kids absolutely loved. Your wife is the bottom rung of their target demo. And this isn't Picasso or Beethoven. Or Casablanca. Actually run a test. See if your wife can stay awake through Casablanca. I've never dated or been with a woman who could make it through Casablanca. Girls these days have almost zero attention span. Lol. If she sleeps through Casablanca I'd say your theory is shot

reply

[–] saviodium (500) 7 years ago

With the casablanca test she would have to be in the mood to watch that kind of movie. Like most woman, my wife's enjoyment of something depends on her mood. However my wife does not fall alseep to a movie unless she really can't get into it.

Yes i am lucky my wife likes chick flicks and comedies but she also likes almost everything I have shown her, and because she never tried it before she is experiencing all my favorites with me for the first time and loving almost all of them.

She didn't like Big trouble in little china though which is one of my fav's. but she loved The Thing.

reply

[–] Keelai (32098) 7 years ago

There are two different subjects that he is discussing. The first is about the next trilogy or saga. The full title is "Star Wars Doesn't Have A Plan Beyond Episode IX". Let them finish the Skywalker family saga or at least begin filming Episode 9 before they decide the next trilogy or saga. No rush at this point.

The second subject was about how each movie in the trilogy is written. Future movies aren't written with specific details that can't be changed no matter what. Otherwise, we would've ended up with Attack of the Clones practically starring Jarjar Binks.

There is probably a general outline re: general direction and story. The specifics are filled in when the script is written and later more liberties can be taken during filming. Many films improvise and get input from actors. Nothing new. Film IS art. For instance, Harrison Ford improvised "I know" after Leia tells him she loves him. His original line was scrapped.

Anyone reading the original Star Wars novel in 1977 would've known how the Empire is created and how Vader was injured. Lucas did have this information as part of his backstory and it was placed in the prequels years later.

Kennedy already said that each trilogy was to focus on each of the original main characters. Force Awakens was Han Solo; Last Jedi is Luke; and Episode 9 was Leia. Too bad because now the latter has to be changed.

The author writes, "Without a concrete plan, the story can evolve and adapt to mirror current cultural events." He then criticizes Mattel for making "assembly line pre-packaged." movies.

reply