MovieChat Forums > Altered Carbon (2018) Discussion > Just completed Season 1 - Spoilers

Just completed Season 1 - Spoilers

posted 6 years ago by UpSideSunny (104)
27 replies | jump to latest

Overall I think it was very well done. There were 1 or two filler episodes where not much happens, but that seems to always be the case with shows like these.

I would definitely recommend it.

My biggest problem is with a fundamental premise of the show - the stacks and satellite backups.

If you can back yourself up sure that would mean a version of you could continue after death. But each iteration will be nothing more than a copy of the one preceding it. There is no continuity of consciousness. If you get backed up and die 1 day later, then when you die you will be dead and your consciousness gone forever. When your backup gets put in a new sleeve after your death it will just be a copy of your consciousness that is in the sleeve. You, the real you, will be gone.

This is clearly demonstrated by Kovacs making a clone of himself. Now there are two of him, and accordingly you can assume there is no continuity of consciousness.

With that being the case, the plot still works if we simply assume that they do not value strict continuity of consciousness, but I find that hard to believe. Every time you die it will be for real as far as you are concerned, so it does make some of the characters decisions a little more strained and unbelievable for me.

For example, Falconer's point that the stacks etc allow the wicked and powerful to continue to survive and take away from the word and control it still makes sense. Even though they die before every new iteration, their consciousness survives and thus their evilness and control survives. That would still make sense.

What would not make sense is jumping bodies just for the hell of it. For example, Kovaks sister changing to different sleeves (the little girl, another woman's body) in order to interact with Kovacs and certain other people. She would be killing herself every time - and that just strains the concept a little too much for me.

I still enjoyed it. But the above did bother me.

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

Why would that be a problem? Do you remember every second that you have lived? I surely don't... I have a lot of memories and knowledge, but don't always recollect how I got it. I might have a hunch, like I probably read it in a magazine ones or I watched it in a documentary, but that's a guess and I just don't know.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

The point the op is trying to make is: Laurens Bancroft killed himself. Takashi his sister killed herself also (lots of times)

Sure every 2 days he makes a copy of his brain onto a 'stack'. And after he blew his head up, this copy got put into another body.
But thats not really him is it? Laurens1 killed himself, now Laurens2 get put in another clone body. It's not actually the same person. It's a copy.

If I clone myself and then kill myself, then sure my clone would still be alive, but what good would that do me? I would be dead, my clone would live on. He would have my memories etc, but I would still be dead. Think about it

What they should have done instead of making copy backups of their brains is a continious upload, like a stream of your brain onto the system. So that you would exist in 2 different places at the same time (my english sux). The moment your body dies, your consciousness still continues on and gets uploaded into another body. Like a movie showing on 2 different televisions, one tv can break down but the movie would continue. Story would actually make sense then.
Grtz

[–] filmtenk (765) 6 years ago

Which version of Kovach survived? Also, Kovach will have to be recasted in future seasons because his sleeve is going back to Ryker.

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

He told Ortega, that it was the one who said goodbye. So I'm thinking that it was the one that "died" in the sky place.

[–] filmtenk (765) 6 years ago

So the real one then. Screw the clone. Besides, clone just spent a week on orgy island.

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

It still wouldn't be the same, it would only be a clone with no gap in the memory. Nothing wrong with that, since I don't believe in the idea of a soul.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

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[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

I just recalled that it wouldn't be possible to backup non stop. I mean you could in theory, but if you watch the series, then you'l notice that they are unable to do anything at the same time as they are transferring the copy (just standing there blinking).

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

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[–] vicky_lc2001 (1907) 6 years ago

The OP's concept was also shown in many other films which this film didn't get, an example of such a film is The Prestige.

[–] joegerardi (378) 6 years ago

You're only considering the backups. If someone dies and their stack isn't destroyed - and gets put in a new sleeve - then it's the exact same person, but someone who has died. In Kovacs' case, the one on the platform died, and was put in a new sleeve, revived, and his memories continued from the exact second of death.

So there IS "continuity of consciousness" (cool expression, BTW!) just not in the people who are backed up. Because the way the actors tend to mumble their lines these days - making people think they're "edgy" - I never quite heard how often the sister backed herself up.

Also, if someone knows he's dying, he can back up, top himself, and have his stack immediately placed in a new sleeve. Again, no loss of "continuity of consciousness." It would only be in the rare circumstances of an unplanned death (accident, crime, etc.) where there would be a break in the line of consciousness.

..Joe

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

Reileen, was a little bit more paranoid then Laurens Bancroft. She backed up every 24 hours instead of 48.

[–] UpSideSunny (104) 6 years ago

The way I understood it is that the stack is only the most current backup. Their brain is still their brain, and the stack is below it taking in information. If the brain is destroyed the stack is there (if it isn't destroyed too) to use as a backup. It is only the really wealthy that have satellites etc that can provide a further layer of backing up. But either way the principle is the same.

When you die you die. Your consciousness is ended. So if you get shot in the brain or die of cancer the thing which gives you consciousness (your brain) is gone. What is left is a backup of what you were, but it is not a continuity of your consciousness. As far as a stack is concerned, at best it is the closest proximity of who you were, but it isn't "you".

Someone above mentioned that it wouldn't matter to them because they do not believe in a soul and that misses the point entirely. All you are is the sum total of processes contained in your brain. If it gets destroyed, then you get destroyed. If it gets damaged, you get damaged. A soul is not necessary for this particular argument whatsoever. This raises an interesting idea. if you ONLY have a stack and none of the fancy extra satellites and you get brain damage, and want another sleeve, then that sleeve would do you no good, since the stack would be the last version of you - the brain damaged one.

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

When you die you die. Your consciousness is ended. So if you get shot in the brain or die of cancer the thing which gives you consciousness (your brain) is gone. What is left is a backup of what you were, but it is not a continuity of your consciousness. As far as a stack is concerned, at best it is the closest proximity of who you were, but it isn't "you".

Doesn't seem to cause any problems in the show. If it did, then no one would bother with stacks or other types of copies.

Let's think about this in real world terms. If a person gets amnesia, would you say that, that's not the same person anymore, just because they don't remember their past (part of an old recording gets damaged)? They can still create new memories and are likely to act similarly, because you are born with specific personality traits (think Meyers Briggs). Sure with a clean slate, or part of your old memories gone, you might make other choices in the same type of situations (because you don't have the same experiences), but you are likely to do something similar, because that's a part of your inborn traits.

As long as the brain, or a cloned body with an exact copy of the brain, is intact, then it is still the same person. The "program" (biological in this case) just paused for a time, and anything that might have happened in between is lost, but the program will continue where it left off, when you resume it.

[–] Cane (31) 6 years ago

Just to clarify, we are not talking about a clone made simply of a copied DNA. We are also talking about a picture (the stack) of all of the neurological connections, that have been created up until a certain point. If you clone something without any of the other information (like Dolly the sheep), it will not be the same being. The same can be argued for twins, in theory they are exact copies of each other, but they are of course not the same person. It is made even clearer when twins are separated at birth, to grow up in different families.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

But we are talking about a clone with a copy of your brain. Ofcourse it's the same person, or the person u were 2 days ago. Again if you would make a perfect clone right now, it would be the same person as you. But if you die your still dead. Dont understand how you do not seem to get this.

Think of it like this: Try to imagine you getting shot and dying. Then later or straight away an old copy of your brain gets put into another body. But try to imagine what happened to you after you got shot and died. Nothing.. you just died, or went to heaven or whatever I dont know. You dont continue. What do you get from some brain copy getting put into another sleeve? In what way would you still be alive?

That being said, I dont think stacks worked like that. I thought the stack was just your current brain and if the body died then your own brain (stack) gets placed into another body. So that works, you wont die that way, just 'unconcious' or sleeping or whatever the stacks do while not in a body. I just think thats its weird that they bother making day old backups since it does not benefits themselves in any way. Just feels good knowing some copy of you would continue your lifeswork or care for family I guess.

But then why the fck did Reileen betray the envoys which the end plan being her blowing herself up. What was her motivation to do this? She didnt want to go along with the plan so she killed herself and then a clone would continue to..take care of her brother?

[–] xfool (932) 6 years ago

Rei believe Quellcrist Falconer will get his brother killed in the mission so to save him and herself ,she betray them. Her body or sleeve doesnt matter when cloning is possible.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

Well yea her body does not matter but her stack also got destroyed in that helicopter explosion right? But okay I guess she did it to save her bro and trusted ctac to keep their word. Which they did (well sortoff, they did try to destroy kovasc but only half-serious). Ctac were actually pretty nice guys.

[–] nolerhett (78) 6 years ago

I think it's more about perception, and what happens after death. If there is some afterlife then your theory would be more probable and when you die you die and the only thing being copied is your memories and the wiring of you brain (neural networking?).

Otoh if nothing happens after death other than your bodies organs shutting down and your brain ceasing to function, then when you are re-sleeved your perception of that would likely be similar to waking up from a very deep sleep (or being unconscious). I imagine after you've had your 1st death and subsequent wake up, whether that be in a new sleeve or in VR, your perception of that would probably feel like you never actually died (i.e. real death).

If you've gone through that process many times like the meths had, then it would probably become almost as mundane as going to sleep each night. You die, you wake up. You remember the death and you remember the waking up. Whether some version of you dies or not is irrelevant. Obviously some people would think as you are, and those people would probably have a hard time with it. They would almost certainly place more value on their original body and treat it with more care even if they could afford to upgrade it.

The double sleeve thing might not be so problematic either since you are creating another version of yourself, except that version becomes more unique as time passes and each version has different experiences. Even in that 1st moment of awakening the cloned version is already different (and to my mind a unique form of life) b/c they will not have experienced the 30 seconds (or however long it takes for the new version to awaken) after the stack download.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

No I did not mean the stack transferring to new sleeves. Don't think thats a way of dying since I dont believe in heaven or hell. Dont think op meant that also. It's just when you make a backup like Bancroft did and then shoot your stack out 2 days later. That's kinda pointless and it does not make sense that he (the new Bancroft) and also Kovascs sister did not reflect on this nor anyone else in the show.

[–] nolerhett (78) 6 years ago

My understanding is the backup is the same as the stack and just another layer of protection that only the very wealthy can afford. They had obviously been re-sleeved many times. Sometimes it was b/c their body died (like when Bancroft died from the weird virus) others it was just b/c they wanted to travel somewhere quickly.

Regardless of the why they re-sleeved the result was the same. Why would they reflect on something that's as common to them as sleeping? This had been going on for longer than 250 years, which was the time Kovacs spent asleep in stack prison.

The religious people did reflect on it, although not in the ways mentioned here. However Lizzie most certainly did. At the end the voice-over mentioned how she kept her silicon body b/c she wasn't sure she was still the real Lizzie. I suspect that was due more to do with how damaged her mind was when she was tortured in VR, but it was obviously something that was considered by the people making the show.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

Yea the backup is the same as the stack, just a copy, but if the original stack gets destroyed then that person stops existing, he/she dies. Thats just a fact, does not matter how many copies continue your life or how long ago the copy was made.

A copy is a copy, its not you. This is just a fact. Im not gonna argue over this anymore. Read first post by op he explains it better.

Being resleeved has nothing to do with your original stack getting destroyed.
Then the backup stack gets put in a clone body and yeah.. so the Bancroft we see mostly in the show is just a copy of the original Bancroft. Just like Kovasc sister. It doesnt matter much for us as viewer but it seems strange that they did not think of a better way. They had 250 years!
If it were me I would put maybe 2 stacks in my body, one in neck and one in my leg or something. Or just live in VR (ghost in the shell style) and control my sleeve from a distance. Tbh I would just live in VR, who needs a real body anyways?

good show though, enjoyed the fast pacing.

[–] nolerhett (78) 6 years ago

I don't think you're grasping my point(s).

The backup is a 2nd stack. It's just not in the body.

Also, it doesn't matter if you believe they're just a copy. Only their belief matters.

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

? How am I not grasping your point. Yes the backup is a 2nd stack. A copy. I don't believe it's a copy, it just is. Don't know what else to call it (clone maybe?) And? Their belief?

[–] Nicolai (138) 6 years ago

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[–] nolerhett (78) 6 years ago

I thought it was amazing until the end, which felt forced. [spoiler]Especially the way the Bancroft's just allowed themselves to be arrested sans ironclad proof of their misdeeds. They were supposed to be gods and the cop arresting them was on their payroll. It just wasn't convincing even if it's what they deserved and what I wanted.[/spoiler]

I had some minor quibbles with Takeshi's abilities coming and going at various times that appeared a bit too convenient.

[–] Alex (1495) 6 years ago

Same problem I had with Prestige with Hugh Jackman or the 6th day with Arnold. A clone with your memories just isn't you, no matter how you slice it. For all intends and purposes, you are actually dead.