MovieChat Forums > Justice League (2017) Discussion > Moral of the story here: Don't rush your...

Moral of the story here: Don't rush your cinematic universe just to try to play catch-up with your rival


Idiots. DCCU fell flat on its a$$ and deservedly so.

They rushed and rushed and RUSHED toward Justice League to try and catch up with the MCU. The results were everything that anyone with even a SHRED of common sense would expect: mediocre films that feel half-a$$ed/rushed, lack of audience investment in the characters/story because no one knows half the League before the team-up, muddle tone and direction of the franchise that makes it obvious that its creators don't have a damn idea of what they're doing and, at the end of the road, the one film they were building it all up for: Justice League...falls flat on its a$$.

It amazes me--absolutely amazes me--that people actually expected this to do well. Really? I mean--really? They blatantly jumped into a competition with the MCU and tried to upstage them at every turn, failing miserably at every turn.

I love DC and Marvel. I loved DC LONG before I loved or knew about Marvel. My top three favorite comic book movies of all time are all Batman movies. What the hell happened? I mean--this DCCU isn't just muddled--EVERYTHING is terrible: from casting to writing to that idiotic slow-motion crap.

There is no heart in this franchise. No evident love and care as you can see in the MCU. No clear direction. No clear plans. It's literally a reactionary studio that keeps making reactionary decision after reactionary decision.

They deserved this end result wholeheartedly. Just like real life, you can't just half-a$$ something and expect Grade A results.

I look at it as two high school kids: One Straight-A kid and one D- doofus. The Straight-A kid puts together a class project, putting in much leg-work beforehand: studying, extended time spent on crafting it and time and patience. D- doofus envies the kid and is too lazy to think his own idea up so he copies the idea of Straight-A but is too lazy to put the same homework into it. The end result is a hastily-crafted class project that vaguely resembles Straight-A's project but looking quite crude.

The moral of the story here? Don't rush your cinematic universe and stop copying off the other company's paper. Do your own thing, stop viewing it as a contest and take PRIDE in what you do. DCCU WB didn't do that and this is the result.

The MCU was a success largely due to the fact that they took their time and won over audience good faith slowly over time. They took reasonable risks but did so with passion and pride. If a person works hard on a piece of work it shows. It resonates in their finished product and people take notice.

The MCU has had a few missteps here and there but the built-in good faith audience forgave them and maintained their faith. The entire DCCU, on the other hand, is one giant misstep.

I love the old Burton Batman movies--even Batman Forever. The Burton movies are still revered today. I strongly attribute that to the fact that WB took more pride in their work then. They made those movies with heart and it showed. Somewhere along the way they made Batman & Robin and freaked out because of the reception. As a result, they aggressively changed their Batman films to be the polar opposite.

They went far too dark with the early days of the DCCU but that wasn't even their only problem: bad writing, directing and overall poor choices in casting and story direction all plagued the DCCU. They never understood these issues and, instead, did all the wrong things: drag in Batman as a revenue boost, mimic MCU both in structure and attempts at humor, etc.

The case has been made: they never had competent people at the helm of this thing and, rather than just swallow their pride, reboot and start over, they continually doubled down on their efforts and just compounded and compounded their mistakes.

It's sad because I love DC and want a great alternative to my MCU movies. DC could be a juggernaut in the proper hands...these are not the proper hands.

They need to dump this entire thing, actors, directors, producers, writers and all, and either start over or sell it off to a different company. Either way--this DCCU turd needs to be flushed.

They just don't get it--five obscure Harley Quinn movies and "barely better" Wonder Woman movies are not the answer here. If you craft a DCCU and Batman and Superman aren't generating interest, you're doing something SEVERELY wrong.

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WB: "that pie looks delicious. Can I have some?.... how do I eat it?"

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Exactly.

WB needs to stop thinking that everything DC needs to be dark and serious. On that same token they need to hire better comedy writers, better actors and better directors/producers.

They need to stop being so reactionary to everything as well. They act like a new kid on the block desperate to fit in and willing to do ANYTHING to be like "the cool kids".

What worked so well with Burton Batman way back then? They way I look at it is this: they weren't viewing anything as a competition. They took a comic book property and had fun with it, not knowing if the concept would work or not. They took a deep risk and gamble that paid off. Gee, what does that sound like? That's right--it sounds like what MCU did.

Somewhere along the way WB lost their way with their DC property and never truly found a way to get it back.

They need someone with a love, fire and passion at the helm of their DCCU. They need a true Kevin Feige as well as a special division that only focuses on DC films, just like what Disney Marvel has done.

Furthermore, they need to dump everything they have now--all of it--and start COMPLETELY over. They need to swallow their pride and accept:

1. "We fcked up."
2. "We'll never catch up to MCU at this point."
3. "We have to just do our own thing."


MCU caught lightning in a bottle and every single attempt to mimic it by multiple companies has failed/drawn in mixed results.

Their biggest problem right now is their apparent refusal to dump it all and start over. They refuse to. They keep adding and adding and adding to the mound of $hit they started making and won't call it a day and start over. They'll never even so much as have a HOPE of pulling themselves out of this mess if they don't bite the bullet and start over. They need a built-in audience who will have faith in them. They can't achieve that now--it's impossible. Their foundation is weak and full of controversy: MOS and BVS. MCU caught people in their net from the very beginning and had--

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--them ever since. WB has yet to do that. From the VERY beginning they were divisive, controversial and hated by many. They should have wiped the slate clean and started over right there. RIGHT there...but they didn't. They got lazy and thought they could just "Batman" their way out with BVS. When that didn't work they turned to copying MCU's humor and structure. Now that has gotten them worse results and what do they do? Announce more movies that no one is interested in.

If they keep going at the rate they're going I doubt most of that slate outside of what's been filmed will see the light of day.

This Justice League result is AWFUL. PATHETIC. ALARMING. All that should be going through their minds right now is: "If our ultimate teamup can't save this thing then what can?"

They.need.to.start.OVER. Simple as that. But I don't think the idiots will--I think they're going to continue compounding their mistakes, use Wonder Woman as a crutch, continue copying MCU and will drive themselves into the ground.

Justice League didn't just underperform--it essentially flopped. Their first flop of the DCCU and it was THEIR Avengers movie, no less. There is NO positive way to spin that--NONE. There is NO way to work and improve from their in the present continuity. They need to kill this whole thing off and start over fresh and clean

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I guess the best we DC fans can hope for is that WB dose the first sensible thing it's done in years is to sell the rights of the DCU to a much more competent company... like dare I say Disney so that DC can finally have a chance to be all it can be.

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I actually prefer DC stays with WB. Selling the comic publisher to Disney would give the House of Mouse more power they have now (and they have to much now, competition is healthy) and selling them to other studios doesn't guarantee a successful franchise. WB is the second most successful film studio (only behind Disney) and for a reason. They can make good films they just have to a plan.

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I agree with most of what you said. However I do not think the dark and serious thing is the problem. It is the execution. I honestly do not want another MCU. Now this might land me some heat but in all honesty I am not head over heels about the MCU like a lot of people tend to be. There are some standouts that are solid films. Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers, Captain America Winter Soldier, and I know everyone loves Civil War, but I was never a huge fan. It is competent but I doubt I would ever watch it again. Then there are films which I find to be a total waste of time. Iron Man 2, Thor The Dark World and Avengers Age of Ultron.

Wonder Woman is the only good film in the DCU thus far. I think they should carry on with her movies but only in solo outings. Honestly the whole team up thing bores me now. Marvel has saturated the market with it therefore for me the novelty has worn off. Reboot everything outside of Wonder Woman and have them be standalone films.

I personally like Standalone films better. I find Spider-man 2, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Superman the movie, and Logan to be far more emotionally engaging films with more artistic value than anything in the MCU. There are good and bad serious comic book movies. So when everyone jumps to oh it was bad because it was dark I just do not buy it. Now for Man of Steel I can agree to an extent. Dark does not suit that character that well. I mean it can be darker than Donner's but not to the degree of which they took it.

The weird thing is Captain America Civil War and Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice are more similar than people realize. Now in terms of quality they are worlds apart. BVS is a gigantic piece of shit and Captain America Civil War i actually good. Examine the blueprint and concepts behind each film you would be amazed at how many similarities there are.


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[deleted]

justice league is awful, cant believe its only made below 650 million

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Let's say the average ticket (for arguments sake only) is $9.00/Ticket. That would mean that the roughly 74 Million people saw JL in theaters. Not every one of those viewers disliked JL or where the DCEU or DCCU and the JL is going.

Warner/DC embarked on a different view and a different take of these characters which was very much in line with what the print side of both houses have done for decades. What was wrong with what Warner/DC was trying to accomplish? Nolan's Batman garnered critical acclaim and success but the Nolan-Ubniverse for that Batman I never personally liked, acclaim notwithstanding. I found Nolan's Batman and the world that Nolan's Batman operated in to be quite a departure and a one-off. The Nolan-verse needed THAT Batman which was a Batman In Name Only. But fans, many fans adore that Batman but any other DC-Verse hero would have rendered that Batman impotent and useless.

This JL and the characters that inhabit the DCEU are to someone's liking and provide just as different take on the character as any of the versions that have been introduced for over 75 years. The endless comparison of DC to marvel does both houses a disservice. There are aspects of this MCU that are tonally off to me also. Hugh Jackman and Fox's version of Wolverine, along with Cyclops, Storm, Rogue are poor imitations of their TV animated and print versions. Fox's Movie renditions were entertaining but just a bit of a let down. My take is that audiences loved them because they had no other movie version to compare them to. Now a generation has made them canon because it is all that some fans know.

Next...

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If given enough time and distance from the Christopher Reeve Superman the DCEU Superman would have made the Donner version replaceable and disposable just as the Adam West Batman was thankfully and quickly discarded by the Burton Batman. (Mind you as a kid I faithfully watched the West version and enjoyed it.) The MCU had to make due with the characters they had but some fans bought in and new fans are now being weaned and are accepting the movie version of the characters as their New Marvel Gods. The one aspect that Marvel is doing right is that the Movie versions (the MCU versions) are all composites of the print characters (616, Ultimate, etc) across different print stories. The MCU decided to at least attempt to make the Marvel Characters true to at least a solid core aspect of that character. Warner/DC instead used several celebrated stories jammed into one movie event to define their characters.

DC fans are getting exactly what they wanted but are unhappy because the average movie-goer is rejecting the DCEU because they don't recognize the DCEU Batman or Superman or Flash and when did Cyborg leave the Teen titans????

WB indeed panicked and there was really no need to create a DCEU as it would have and does severely hinder their attempt to tell new stories and show new sides of the large slate of DC characters. Wb panicked by not allowing Snyder to complete is trilogy. WB rushed into BvS and jettisoned Man of Steel II. WB then rushed into JL off of the outstanding (but mediocre rendition of WW).

Here is an example of the fickle nature of DC fans. Even though the attendance for JL was not competitive with Marvel's first Avenger's film it still is pretty good with the exception of how much it cost ($300 Million) to produce. Once the Avengers:Infinity War trailer was released the DC Fans became crestfallen. They see what staying true to a vision can yield outstanding results. Bet they don't reward their own Studio creation by bothering to attend??

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The thing is DC already rebooted their universe after Green Lantern so they don't want to reboot again but it is uncertain if they will reboot it with the Flashpoint film so it can happen but I wish they would and undo everything Snyder did.

They have Geoff Johns to make as Kevin Feige but I think Snyder ruined the universe to much for Johns to save it.

But yeah WB had no idea what they were doing and probably still don't have.

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As a studio WB wants to turn a profit. The studio for the year of 2017 is very much doing that with the rest of their IP's. WB does indeed need to stop chasing Marvel and allow their IP's to expand. WB has been too reliant on two characters Superman and Batman. They have been milked to death and when they attempted to reimagine those two characters they didn't allow them to sit in the marketplace long enough. If anything WB overvalued those two characters and the WW results show that. GL had other problems but I guarantee you that the fans truly wanted WB and DC to put a new character on the screen.

Thor and Captain America didn't have big Box Offices and neither did The Hulk. It was the Avengers that hit the jackpot. The DCEU could have easily started with a JL movie after man of Steel and made bank. Not as much bank as the Avengers but they would have did very well if they had NOT done BvS.

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Yes it's a good morale.... HOWEVER, what's interesting is that they didn't even rush it.

MCU:

Iron Man, start of the Avengers buildup, was released in May 2008. Plus they had also released Incredible Hulk that same summer, although it's largely ignored and didn't have Mark Ruffalo.

Avengers came out in April 2012. That's only four years. Actually slightly less than four.

DCEU:

Man of Steel, the start of the Justice League buildup, came out in June 2013.

Justice League came out in November 2017.

That's four years and five months!

When you add in the extra month from Avengers releasing in April, then the DCEU had SIX MONTHS more time for buildup!


Now, how many movies did they both make in this time period?

MCU:
1 Phase One
1.1 Iron Man (2008)
1.2 The Incredible Hulk (2008)
1.3 Iron Man 2 (2010)
1.4 Thor (2011)
1.5 Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)
1.6 Marvel's The Avengers (2012)

FIVE movies leading up to Avengers, within four years.

DCEU:
Man of Steel
Batman vs. Superman
Suicide Squad (which is largely unrelated to the other three)
Justice League

Only THREE movies leading up to Justice League, within four years.


Marvel did more movies, with higher quality, in a six month shorter time frame than Warner Brothers did.

Interesting, huh?

=)

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