MovieChat Forums > Clueless (1995) Discussion > Why did Josh have to be Cher's former st...

Why did Josh have to be Cher's former step-sibling?

posted 4 years ago by TMC-4 (19574)
19 replies | jump to latest

I always thought that having them romantically hook up at the end was extremely weird. And I don't care if people try to excuse it as "well they're former step-siblings" and Cher's dad wasn't married to Josh's mom that long. And besides all of that, Josh was a 20 something year old guy in college making out of an underage high schooler. I know that Amy Heckerling based Clueless on Jane Austin's Emma.

And presumably, an older guy like Josh hooking up with girls Cher's age was socially acceptable back then. But how is that still such a case in 1995!? As a matter of fact, if I recall, even the studios wanted Josh to just be Cher's neighbor (because of understandably, how icky it sounded on paper) instead of her ex-stepbrother turned love interest.

[–] pioneergrrrl (2391) 4 years ago

good point 1800's IS much different than 1990's. age of consent was much lower. The 'incest' angle was weirder.

At the very least they could have gone w the neighbor she just happens to eye. Or the guy she just crashes into while learning how to drive.

This was just gross. I think the movie would have made MUCH more---and helped Silverstone's career out much more if they had not had that. Yes they're also not biological, but it's still nasty. I can't imagine how they got it past the studios.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I recall that Stephen Colbert when he had Alicia Silverstone on his CBS late night show joked that Clueless is a movie about a teenage girl who realizes that she's in love with her stepbrother:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm1lWu_xEaI

What shocks me about Clueless is that the whole movie treats the supposed "incest" angle straight or as if we shouldn't start asking any questions about it (like how is Cher's dad going to feel once he inevitably finds out).

https://goat.com.au/clueless/heres-the-proof-that-josh-from-clueless-actually-had-an-incest-kink/

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lyapalater/is-it-weird-that-cher-and-josh-ended-up-together-i

https://www.popsugar.com/love/photo-gallery/40321605/image/40322155/Clueless

https://www.ignboards.com/threads/why-does-everyone-ignore-that-in-the-movie-clueless-it-pretty-much-ends-with-statutory-rape.182720924/

[–] pioneergrrrl (2391) 4 years ago

Yeah with him being a lawyer and stuff. And Josh being a lawyer in training means that he has to to do good conduct too.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I watched Clueless again on CBS last week after not watching it for the longest time. And it occurred to me that Josh was the one who made the first move not Cher. Part of me felt like Josh caught Cher in a vulnerable position (after Josh told off that asshole lawyer associate for insulting Cher) and knew full well how overprotective Mel was of his daughter. And it isn't like Josh at the time, knew full well that Cher finally realized that she "in love" with him the whole time.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I recall that on the follow-up TV series, they actually had Josh as a semi-regular character in the first season. I suppose that the TV series was meant to be like the movie if you ignore the last third of it.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I'm a tad bit relieved that I'm not the only one who thought about this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/hbghha/we_need_to_talk_about_clueless_1995/

In the movie, Cher (Alicia Silverstone) and Josh (Paul Rudd) were at some point related when her dad and his mom were married. I think it is said that Cher was around 10 or 11 when the parents meet and it is mentioned that the marriage didn’t last long, but at some point, presumably, Cher and Josh were raised together as step-siblings. They still see each other frequently because Josh works for Cher’s dad, and they have a very sibling-like relationship. By the end of the movie (spoilers?) Cher realizes she’s in love with Josh, and they end up kissing! The crazy part is that the step-family subplot is completely unnecessary. Josh could’ve easily been just some older guy who works for Cher’s dad that has known her since she was little and who she just now realizes she has feelings for. But then of course there’s still a weird statutory issue since Cher is only 16 in the movie! I know this movie is an iconic depiction of 90’s culture, and it supercharged the careers of its stars. But I can’t get over the fact that the movie is basically about it.

[–] jewoogle (2269) 4 years ago

this was 25 years ago when hollywood was just starting to push there sick incent agenda so they couldnt go all out and make them brother and sister like they do today. society was much more normal and less fucked up back then so they had to ease the public into it. and ex-step sibling relationship is even less incestual than a current step sibling relationship which is way less incestual than a real sibling which they now are shamelessly promoting today in many different movies and shows and pornos. I feel like that was the reason for it. hollywood just started promoting this filth back then and couldnt go all out yet smoothly so they started here

[–] pioneergrrrl (2391) 4 years ago

No they're not blood related but him being a law student also means he's aware of age of consent. Kissing a 16 year old when you are well over 16 is nasty. It's not adorable or cute.

[–] jewoogle (2269) 4 years ago

thats what i am saying. things in 1995 were more tame they are not blood related making it not that messed up. now them hollywood weridos would probably pull some way more sick shit

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I honestly would like to know how Alicia Silverstone and Paul Rudd seriously feel about the whole "Cher kisses her ex-stepbrother" plotline. I mean did they sense back then, that something felt kind of "off" about the whole thing? I suspect that because Clueless came out during an era where there was no social media, it was much harder to micro-analyze every big plot-point on a major forum. Plus, Clueless is pretty much THE teen movie of the '90s (much like Mean Girls was that for the 2000s and Fast Times at Ridgemont High and John Hughes' movies were that for the '80s), it's much easier to "forgive" stuff like that.

[–] Who (5146) 4 years ago

Mr. Nightly was Emma’s neighbor so that would have been a better fit for Josh. Mr. Nightly was also the younger brother of Emma’s brother in law, so I guess they were trying to parallel that more familiar tie in the Cher-Josh relationship and give it a modern twist. They should have made Josh an intern in Cher’s Dad’s law firm, and also the son of one the partners in the firm.

[–] Techto (1178) 4 years ago

Totally agree. I thought it was a bizarre choice when I first saw it and still think so now. I can’t think of any reason to write the characters as step-siblings other than to attempt to advance social acceptance for such unions. Perhaps the writer Or one of his or her relations had a thing for a step sibling.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

I kind of get where they were going by on the surface, making it appear that Josh is a desirable person to be Cher's boyfriend. I mean he like Cher, is willing to go out of his way to help others. Like when he danced with Tai so she wouldn't feel rejected or when he in effect, rescued Cher after she got mugged. And then there's of course Josh defending Cher after that lawyer insulted her.

But again, I must say how exactly is Christian a "worse option" other than Murray telling her that he thinks that he's gay? I mean, Christian himself, rescued Tai from those two jerks who were dangling her at the mall. And Christian didn't force himself onto Cher (which was further evidence to Murray that Christian was gay) like Elton and when you think about it, Josh at the end. We just assume that Christian isn't right because of the gay innuendo and simply because Mel doesn't like him right away.

I guess the main point that I'm trying to make, is that between your ex-stepbrother and a may or may not be gay guy, is there really a "perfect" solution?

[–] Techto (1178) 4 years ago

Well, Josh and Christian were not her only options. Early in the movie she brushes off a male with her dismissive “as if” comment. I’m sure she had lots of other options.

Sure, Josh was a nice and attractive guy who was also attracted to her but it’s still an unusual and taboo romantic pairing. Perhaps that’s why relations between step siblings has become a popular porn genre.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

Amy Heckerling herself claims that Cher and Josh's relationship and romance was inspired by her actual grandparents so take that as you will:
https://www.thelist.com/41884/untold-truth-clueless/

http://time.com/3944547/clueless-20th-anniversary/

I'll reply by saying just because you think personally that it's acceptable doesn't necessarily mean that we should be able to accept or digest it (especially without any sort of context) no questions asked. That would be like if Jack Nicholson made a fluffy, fictionalized comedy movie about a man who realizes that his big sister is actually his mom and that his mom is actually his grandma. Amy Heckerling wasn't making a movie with Alicia Silverstone and Paul Rudd as her actual grandparents the last time I checked.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

This is perhaps one of the reasons why Clueless, despite its status as an iconic teen movie, was hard movie for me to revisit. When I first saw it, I was just thinking the whole time, this girl is making out with her big brother. Being that I was quite young at the time, I suppose that I didn't entirely know how to process it.

[–] Otter (24464) 4 years ago

The movie was based on Jane Austen's "Emma", and in "Emma", Knighley is Emma's brother-in-law, her sister is married to his brother. Their relationship grows from familiar (in every sense of the word) to romantic, they start out as part of the same family/social circle, they know everything about each other and have totally comfortable with each other long before their feelings turn to romance.

It's rather difficult to re-create a relationship like that in modern Beverly Hills, which definitely isn't the sort of small town where everybody knows everything about everyone. So it's kind of difficult to create a relationship where this unrelated, elegible young man has been around Cher forever and the two of them know everything about each other. He could have been the boy next door, he could have been a brother-in-law again but that would have meant including a sister character, he could have been the guy from temple who went to hebrew school with her,... but making him an ex-stepbrother... I think the writer settled on ex-stepbrother because that tells you so much about the odd-but-loving relationship between Cher and her father. It tells us that she's Lady of the House because the wives don't last long, and that although Dad seems like a jerk, he's really decent to this bright young man who's probably grown up in an unstable family situation.

{S: Re Josh's age, is he in pre-law or actual law school? If pre-law, he'd be maybe 19-22, still to old but not ten years older.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 4 years ago

The problem Clueless fans have about Cher and Josh isn't what you think

https://www.looper.com/294826/the-problem-clueless-fans-have-about-cher-and-josh-isnt-what-you-think/

Okay, let's get the obvious out of the way: yes, Cher and Josh are step-siblings, which makes their romance weird enough. And, yes, despite context clues suggesting that they didn't actually live together for a very long time, they still act like they are brother and sister. Cher makes fun of Josh's flannel, Josh mocks Cher for watching cartoons — the bicker, joke, and do all the things real life siblings do. No, Cher and Josh are not related by blood, but it is still uncomfortable. And yet, let's face it — in a post Game of Thrones, Jaime-and-Cersei-Lannister-making-babies-together world, we've all gotten a little weirdly used to incest in fiction. Heck, Supernatural fans even had a term for their fanfiction where the Winchester brothers hook up, that being "Wincest." We live in strange times.

What's even more disturbing, though, is the seeming age gap between Cher and Josh. Josh does make mention of his interest in Environmental Law, and as Reddit user hlierman22 pointed out, "does that make him still in undergrad or is he attending law school already?"

If Josh had only just started his undergraduate program and is merely discussing his future plans, it's possible he is only 18. On the other hand, if he's talking about his graduate program, he could be 22 or 23 years old. If Josh is 19 and Cher is 16, then that would technically be legal, but we're truly skating a fine line of weird that, even all these years later, Clueless fans are still squicked out by.

[–] TMC-4 (19574) 3 years ago

Why Movies Like “Clueless,” “Love Actually,” And “Grease” Just Don’t Hold Up Anymore

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/why-movies-clueless-love-actually-033538840.html

BuzzFeed Daily: Misogyny and predatory behavior used to be much more acceptable, even a decade ago, and something that’s really shifted in the last few years is sexual politics. In your piece, you mention how in Beetlejuice, Winona Ryder’s character is a child bride and Beetlejuice is sexually harassing women for laughs; in Clueless, Alicia Silverstone and Paul Rudd’s characters have a romantic relationship, even though they were once step-siblings; and in the musical Grease there’s that song where the guys ask, “Did she put up a fight?” Why don’t you think people realized the problems in these movies at the time?