Does anyone want to talk about this film?
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shareMichelle Pfeiffer looks great!
shareShe does indeed.
But what do you think about her character? Is she sympathetic to you? Do you feel bad for her or do you dislike her?
And, I know this is a weird question but it's something I find fascinating, what type of background do you think she came from?
I think her character is probably relatable to a lot of people including myself. She had no confidence and allowed herself to be walked all over until she reached her breaking point (well she had to be murdered to get there). I think a lot of people fantasize about gaining confidence and taking back control over a world that's beaten them down.
The other thing I really like is that this movie introduced a lot of non-comic fans to the tweener aspect of the character. Many were familiar with her solely as a villain but this portrayal showed her as more of a lost soul who does still have a moral compass and isn't simply pure evil like Joker or Penguin. Like Batman she was a nice shade of grey making her a great counterpart to him.
Good analysis SamGerard. Thanks for your response!
Do you think any of her actions in the film were questionable, or do you think her motives were always righteous and understandable?
Even if her motives were righteous several of her actions were questionable...mainly helping with the kidnappng of the snow queen (if that's what she was called) which ultimately led to the Penguin murdering her in an attempt to frame Batman. Cat Woman didn't intend for the snow queen to die, but she still did and Cat Woman has to own that. That moment actually seemed to reel her back somewhat in when she sees the real consequence of her actions. This discussion is making me realize how long it's been since I've seen this and I'm going to,have to watch again sometime soon.
shareI like the title the 'Snow Queen' so I'm not going to correct you (I believe it's the 'Ice Princess'), and I agree that was an error of judgement on Catwoman's part.
I guess she was so eaten up with trying to defeat Batman that she didn't care about the consequences of her actions, but I also find it hard to imagine that Catwoman would be that careless and callous about another human life, which makes me wonder if there wasn't another underlying reason for her mistreating the Snow Queen. Yes, she didn't want her killed, but she still colluded in her kidnap, and she still whipped her and dragged her up a fire escape. Maybe she resented the Snow Queen. Maybe she despised that sort of woman. Maybe she reminded her of the type of girls she didn't get along with at school.
What do you think? I hate to think that Catwoman completely dehumanised the Snow Queen.
She probably did despise the type of woman she perceived the snow queen to be (damn it is ice princess). When we meet Selina she views herself as an unattractive nobody. She likely views the snow queen as someone who gets by on her looks and has had everything handed to her on a silver platter. Now we don't know much about the snow queen so whether this perception is accurate or not is left to our imagination. But even if true, being beautiful is clearly not a sin deserving of kidnap and murder and Selina was a part of that no matter how much she may regret it.
shareI agree with all of this.
I just like to believe that the Ice Princess (I'll go back to using her official title now) did have everything handed to her on a silver platter, because it makes her fate much easier for me to take.
Yes, it was still terrible what happened to her, but it's less upsetting if the Ice Princess, who I'm guessing was in her twenties (?), had lived a blissful life until her kidnap. Such a short life, and a nasty end, is less upsetting if one has the sense that the person in question had lived a full and happy existence up until that point.
If, for instance, Catwoman had been complicit in the kidnap, and eventual death, of a poor homeless bedraggled orphan it would make her actions even more heinous (not because it's somehow okay to murder a happy or privileged person, but because at least such a person had known good times).
Well I guess the good thing about an unknown backstory of a minor character is that you can choose any backstory you want for them.
On that note I am turning in for the night, nice chatting with you.
Nice chatting to you.
I hope you don't mind continuing.
I agree with the following: "Well I guess the good thing about an unknown backstory of a minor character is that you can choose any backstory you want for them", but based on what we do know about and perceive from the character, would you say my theory about the Ice Princess's background seemed credible? What do you think?
I'd hate for her to have come from a Marilyn Monroe background. I know some might compare her to Monroe, but even though Monroe specialised in playing 'dumb blondes' onscreen, she was supposedly very bright in reality. I see the Ice Princess almost as the opposite, in terms of personality, albeit not looks, in that she tried to give the façade of competence in public, but behind-the-scenes she comes across as rather stupid.
I'd say your theory of her background seems credible. If I had to guess the Ice Princess was a high school cheerleader and pageant queen who let her beauty define her. This doesn't make her a bad person but she likely would be heading for a rude awakening as she gets older and younger women start stealing the attention she took for granted all those years. These are characteristics that Selina likely resented which is why she had no problem using her as a pawn to get revenge against Batman, though she wanted to stop short of killing her.
shareGreat response. :)
I definitely think she was a Homecoming and Prom Queen. Cheerleading, I'm not too sure. You have to be physically fit to be a cheerleader, and the Ice Princess seemed to be the type to wait on people to rescue her, rather than hopping off the ledge to her own safety, which is what I'd feel a more athletically-inclined cheerleader might do. I think the girl the Penguin pins a button on, and takes advantage of, was probably the cheerleader type (if only because the woman who played her was a real-life professional cheerleader).
I see the Ice Princess as being more interested in hair and makeup, and fashion, than cheer squad. I also like to think of her as being a bit similar in lifestyle to the Mean Girls.
"What do you think? I hate to think that Catwoman completely dehumanised the Snow Queen."
As I've said in previous discussions of this topic, I think Tim Burton had a certain amount of built-up resentment against that sort of woman - he was never conventionally attractive and probably spent his formative years unable to get the attention of gorgeous blondes. That's why her death was treated as meaningless if not comic, in the film's most spectacular moment of tone-deafness.
Although you'd think that he'd have gotten over those feelings by the early 90s, when he'd been a successful director for years, and was probably being targeted by women who tried to use their looks to get ahead.
Funnily enough, Michelle Pfeiffer, the film's hero, at least in Burton's eyes, is a gorgeous blonde too, so any resentment he feels to women like the Ice Princess has to be based on something more than her simply being very good-looking. I suspect he targeted her because of her stupidity and her interest in the types of mainstream pursuits (i.e. beauty pageants, hair and makeup) that he abhorred. But it's a big shame to me that he didn't bring out the nastier elements of the character that were in the script and that the actor who played the part, Cristi Conaway, alluded to in interviews. I like to think it's canon (there's nothing to suggest she's not a jerk) even if we don't really see it (apart from a background shot of her getting exasperated with some tree-lighting officials, and her, understandably, referring to the Penguin as an 'ugly bird-man with fish-breath', and curtly demanding 'who are you?' when he enters her dressing room), simply because it makes it easier for me to accept her fate, and easier for me to accept Catwoman as a hero.
Plus, I hate the 'beautiful people = innocent' trope, especially when we have the Penguin who's an ugly monster. It's an unhealthy message to teach kids.
"Plus, I hate the 'beautiful people = innocent' trope"
Yes, but I also hate the "whore = expendable" trope. Which does exist. It's very, very old.
I certainly wouldn't describe the Ice Princess as a 'whore', even if we accept my interpretation of the character.
'Whore' implies either a prostitute or someone who is sexually loose. I don't see the Ice Princess remotely as either. Yes, she flaunts her beauty, but only from a 'look but don't touch' position (when she's lighting the tree). She also seems to have two bodyguards protecting her. I see her as more akin to a movie star, or a celeb, or socialite. Someone who the masses aspire to be, or be with, but certainly don't look down upon or perceive to be sexually available.
And as sad and frustrating as her demise is, at least the people onscreen seemed to care. Most of the film's other deaths, or near-deaths (including Selina's), seem to occur without anyone batting an eyelid. She's the one character whose death sends shockwaves throughout the city, and even prompts the police to shoot at Batman. It's not really akin to the average female character in a typical Brian De Palma film (and by the way, I say that as a De Palma fan, albeit one who is under no illusion about the regular misogyny that pops up in his movies).