Where is the slow gradual learning progress? Where are the setbacks, the trials, the learning-from-mistakes aspects? For that matter, where are the mistakes?
How can anyone like Rey? She knows everything, she's perfect and for some goddamn reason, all the good-guy characters love her!
THIS IS NOT HOW PADAWANS BECOME JEDI, ABRAMS AND JOHNSON and particularly KK!!!
Did you not watch the films? Nothing you say is true.
shareHow can she master a lighsaber in NO TIME FLAT? AND Finn, for that matter??
Same way Luke Skywalker did, by being "strong with the force." Remember, he'd never heard of the force, and knew nothing of Jedis, until he met Ben Kenobi, and a few hours later he had mastered the force to a point where he could direct missiles into a tiny port and blow up the Death Star. It's just the way things have always worked in the Star Wars universe.
If you can set politics/whatever aside for a moment and be honest, Rey is a far more developed character than Luke ever was. Her entire life was a gradual learning process filled with trials, failure, and learning from mistakes. She was abandoned as a child, and learned to survive by climbing through wrecked starships, scavenging for parts, learning how they work so she could clean and repair them to sell, and defending herself with a very-lightsaber-like weapon. With Luke, we learn nothing about him other than that he's a whiny wannabe fighter pilot who suddenly masters the force after a few minutes of training.
Both Rey and Luke are cut from the same cloth: they are born with an ability to channel the force that is far, far greater than anyone else. If you can't accept that, then you may as well dismiss the entire Star Wars franchise, because that's a given. It applies to Darth Vader, Yoda, and others as well. How does Grogu know how to levitate massive objects? How did baby Anakin hop into a starship and defeat an army all by himself? It's the force, baby. Take it or leave it.
No wonder people are abandoning Star Wars in droves, it's so JUVENILE.
I work at a charity shop, and honestly, a large amount of toys, games and clothes we get as donations have the Star Wars brand on them, it's like people can't get rid of them fast enough. By comparison, I've never seen Star Trek or any other sci-fi franchise donated. Maybe the odd Game of Thrones, but of course, we all know how that turned out in the end, so why not.
I assume that's because no one is buying Star Trek toys in the first place, if any are even being made. Star Wars is a pretty huge deal in terms of toys, so vast amounts are being purchased, and subsequently donated as their owners grow up or change their interests. That's how toys work. I assume you get a lot more Paw Patrol toys than, say, Fireman Sam toys for the same reason, though it sounds like you may be outside the U.S. based on using the British term charity shop rather than the U.S. term thrift shop, so perhaps Fireman Sam is bumpin' over there.
shareI'm not just talking about toys, but everything with a particular brand on it.
I'm in the UK, yes, and YES, the CORRECT term is "charity shop", as what you said sounds dodgy beyond belief.
And yes, we have had a few Paw Patrol items donated. NEVER Fireman Sam, although why you mentioned that, I do not know.
Charity Shop = Thrift Shop, neither seems sketchy to me. Dodgy = Sketchy btw
Fireman Sam is the equivalent to Star Trek in the analogy: an older show without much relevancy to modern children.
The point remains tje same. Star wars merchandise is produced 100/1 against Star Trek, so the donated products would be proportionate. Also, how does thrift store sound dodgy? Thrifty is a term for not spending a lot of money, nothing more.
shareThat's... certainly a take there, FilmBuff. I don't know which Star Wars movies you watched, but looking beneath any superficial similarities, Rey and Luke aren't the same at all. To put it very simply, Luke is the textbook application of the Hero's Journey, while Rey is a self-insert character with God Mode activated at the start. Even Anakin was better written, despite having questionable execution. That's an honest objective observation with no politics or whatever.
*sigh* I suppose there's no point going into further detail, though. This debate has been done to death and the whole "Rey is like Luke" argument has been debunked countless times. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, I don't know if you're a stubborn Ray stan or a disingenuous troll. At the very least, come up with better material next time when discussing Star Wars.
I'm not a fan or a troll, just someone who watches a lot of movies. Luke was pretty much a western trope-- the naive young kid with an innate knack for gunfighting. The first time he picks up a gun, he's an ace. That's fine for the kind of film Star Wars is, and the time it was made. Films are much more sophisticated now, and when Rey was introduced, she was given a far more fleshed out backstory.
I'm not sure where you get a "Rey is like Luke" message in what I wrote.
Luke is plucked from his farm life and thrown into battle, where he immediately excels, and masters the force after a few minutes of training. Rey spends her entire life trying and failing, and learning, and when she's finally exposed to the force, she too masters it with little effort.
My point is that in the Star Wars universe, the force works the way the force works, and both Rey and Luke utilize it in similar fashion. Beyond that, they are very different characters.
Except Luke didn't immediately excel, Rey did. We saw Luke fail onscreen despite his training, and we saw Ray succeed onscreen with little effort or training. Rise of Skywalker tried to rectify that, but it was too little too late. What started off as a Mary Sue became someone with fluctuating power-levels as the plot demanded. Again, I don't know which movies you watched, but it wasn't the nine that the rest of us watched.
Ironically, I gotta quote Force Awakens and say "that's not how the force works". Even prodigies like Luke and Anakin, who picked up skills quickly, still needed years of training before they were even remotely competent. Rey kicked ass at the start of the story, and in a matter of days used powers she'd never heard of, and beat a seasoned warrior born from a powerful lineage. To add insult to injury, they even brought back Palpatine with no explanation, just to have Rey steal Luke and Anakin's thunder.
We actually see luke training multiple times, and failing multiple times. Luke even sequestered himself on a remote planet to get focused training without distraction. Rey never did any of these things.
shareWe see that in the second film, not the first, just as we see Rey do the same in her second film.
sharebut prior to that, Luke doesn't display the skills he learns, that's the difference. Rey uses mind tricks and a light saber in a combat situation almost instantly. Lukes big accomplishment is being able to focus enough that he shoot straight. Considerably more basic than controlling someone's mind.
shareI got the sense that showing she'd grown up using what amounts to a wooden light saber to defend herself translated into being adept with the light saber.
Luke also uses the force to do things he wasn't trained to do, whether it is shooting at a target so small even a computer can't hit it, or moving a light saber from the ground into his hand using his mind. Until he met Yoda, he had not been trained at all other than for a few minutes with Obi Wan Kenobi. We just have to accept that in that world, some people are innately able to channel the force to do things without being trained to do them.
"Films are much more sophisticated now,"
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO
. . .was with you till you said this.
You watch a lot of movies? Yikes. Try:
[insert list of classic movies, filled with beauty, nuance and sophistication]
Then try:
[insert list of current movies, filled w/car chases, gunfights, superheroes and giant robots]
Then try a more intelligent take. Something along the lines of: "SOME movies today are more sophisticated than SOME movies in the past. But it's impossible to generalize. Because such an effort is inherently ridiculous."
Yeah.
Try that.
You're purposely misinterpreting what I wrote. My point is that Star Wars did not spend much time developing characters. It presented a bunch of familiar archetypes and tropes, and let it play out. That was the norm in the past. Now, films are expected to offer a deeper, and yes, more sophisticated, character, and far more time is devoted to introducing and explaining them, as is the case with Rey. I'm not making the case that every film, past or present, adheres to this, but as a general statement it's true.
Luke Skywalker is barely explored in Star Wars. We are given a handful of cinematic cues that help us place him in context of other heroes, and then we watch his journey unfold. With Rey we are given a much deeper look into who she is and what makes her tick, and it makes us feel more as we embark on her journey with her.
Mmmm. . .sorry, no. I simply quoted What You Wrote. No "misinterpreting" your simple claim that. . .I'll repeat. . ."Films are much more sophisticated now". I'll repeat: while I may agree with just about everything else you wrote, THAT is an absurd statement. Period.
shareIt's true in the context of what I wrote. As much as I love, and actually prefer, older films, I can't pretend that modern films don't spend far more time on story and character than did their predecessors.
shareYou can keep repeating it. . .that will Never make it true. The fact of the matter is, there are plenty of older films that are an impressive result of love, care and talent. There are plenty of older films that are trash. There are PLENTY of current films that are impressive. There is no shortage of current films that are trash. It's ridiculous to claim "things are more [insert opinion] today than yesterday." Corollary: it's equally ridiculous to claim the opposite. If you don't get that, nobody can help you. It's a basic fact.
shareWe're talking about two entirely different things here, and you're putting all sorts of words into my mouth that have nothing to do with what I'm saying.
shareLOL. . .sorry, no. QUOTING you is by definition NOT "putting words in your mouth."
You can continue to try to backpedal, or you can accept that your statement "Films are much more sophisticated now" is patently absurd. As is "modern films. . .spend far more time on story and character."
Using YOUR WORDS against you has nothing to do with "context;" you're simply wrong. Of course, since this is the internet, you're incapable of admitting that gracefully.
Shrug. Feel free to keep making a fool of yourself.
You'd rather keep throwing your made up accusation at me than discuss a film. Like many, you seem to here to lob insults and argue. I'm here to talk about films with other film buffs. You can keep parroting back the same misinterpretation of my words all you want. I'm adding you to my list of blocked users so I can focus on discussions. There are plenty of others here who are as keen as you are to argue, and I suggest you find one of them. :)
shareTranslation: "I've been shown to be a clown and an idiot, so now I'm gonna pretend I have the high ground and run away with my fingers in my ears."
Cool story, bro. Buh-bye.
That's a major false equivalence. Luke using the force to get the torpedo's down the exhaust port A) Took actual effort and B) Took help. If it hadn't been for Obi Wan telling him what to do, if it hadn't been for Han getting the TIE fighters out of the way, if it hadn't been for all the other Rebel pilots Luke never would have been in any position to put the Torpedo's down the exhaust port. In the case of Rey though she is able to to master the force with no training, no help and no effort.
Also FYI, tearing down Luke doesn't make Rey a better character (not that you even came close to tearing down Luke).
The two are absolutely equivalent. Both were brand new to the Force, yet without training were able to harness it to do something that would otherwise have been effectively impossible to do. That's just the way the Force works in Star Wars. Anakin was no different. He was pod-racing, something humans weren't thought to be capable of doing, let alone doing well, and beating experienced adult aliens when he was 8 or 9 years old.
shareNot even close. Luke had a mentor, he had training and he didn't succeed at first. He experienced setbacks, temptation and it wasn't always clear if he was going to come out on top.
Rey on the other hand someone became the best force user we have ever seen 30 seconds after she discovered the force was even real.
As for Anakin, if The Phantom Menace were the only prequel film you MIGHT have a point but it wasn't and considering what happened to him in Episodes II and III that rules out any legitimate comparison to Rey. Also Anakin had a pretty tearful goodbye scene to his mother and since it's a prequel and she's not in the OT we know she's not going to make it which just adds a layer of foreshadowed tragedy to Anakin that was nowhere to be found in Rey.
Sorry but you're way off on this one. Luke and Anakin were well written characters, Rey was not. Also I'll remind you that tearing down Luke and Anakin (which you didn't do BTW) won't somehow make Rey a good character. All you would have done is prove Luke and Anakin are bad characters (which they aren't).
Disagree re Anakin, agree re Luke.
This argument re Luke being the same as Rey has always been garbage as - like you pointed out - Obi-Wan literally guides him. He tells him to turn off his targeting and use the force.
Given we've just seen Obi-Wan merge with the force, I always took that to mean he was in effect guiding Luke spiritually to ensure the weapon would hit home.
That however is in stark contrast to Anakin, saying stuff like "What does this button do?" and randomly blowing the trade federation station up...
As I said if The Phantom Menace was the only Star Wars movie you might have a point about Anakin, but the reason why Anakin being so “perfect” in TPM kind of works because we the audience know that this is as high as he’s ever going to get and that the rest of his life is going to be nothing more than a downfall of pain, tragedy and anger. Also in TPM we did at least get a pretty sad scene where he has to leave his mother, we never got anything close to being that emotional with Rey.
shareFuck Luke and his so called training ! jeez!
Just because Luke went to Dagobah and ran around in a jungle for a bit does not mean every subsequent movie character has to do that , and none have , so why pick on Rey?