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if god knows past future and present


how do you have any free will?

he created all the circumstances and events in the universe and up to your birth, he decided all your DNA and events that would happen to you throughout life. he decided you'd cry for 2 mins at birth, then be well behaved baby, then a quiet child, your dog that got hit by the car ect ect ect ect ect

then chrsitains say "have faith! choose god!"

what choice? im just like the robot that got programmed my entire life is preplanned for me

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You do have free will. God knows what you will decide, but you are still free to do it.

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Nice. I didn't have to scroll too far to see the correct answer. Impressive.

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Hi Leodicaprio!

Did you freely write this question ?

1.Okay, firstly, God does not create ‘all the circumstances and events’ - you are free to create your own circumstances and events. Sure there are certain parameters, like where you were born and such like, but you are free within that sandbox/framework. You can choose to do good, or you can choose to do evil.

2. Have you ever known a person’s nature so well, that you can second guess what they will do in certain circumstances? Well, multiply that by infinity, and you will begin to get the idea, of just how well God 'knows' you, & your nature.

3. God is the ultimate chess master, He knows every move & counter-move that could ever be taken, before the game’s even began. It doesn’t prevent you from making your move, but God knows the outcome regardless, because His mind is infinite.

4. The overwhelming evil upon the earth, in itself proves ‘free will’ - otherwise, God is either a poor programmer of His ‘robots’ - or God Himself is evil.

5. God cannot be ‘evil’ - the very definition of ‘God’ is the highest concieveble being - the highest good,
God is Love, and evil is a lack of Love.

6. God uses our imperfect free will, to carry out His perfect will.
Example, the greatest crime in the history of man, was the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and this was overturned into the greatest act of Love, and the greatest ‘miracle’ through the resurrection - what is meant for evil, God will ultimately use for good.

So, to sum up... God is Love, and you are free to choose Him, or to reject Him. He knows your nature infinitely, & so knows what you will do, before you even do it, but that in no way takes away your freedom.

There's much more I could add, but this has already become an essay, so I will leave it here.

All the very best to you,

God Bless xxx

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1. if hes omniscient, omnipresent and and omnipotent. then by definition he did. he created everything no? he sees everything past and future now? how could you possibly create your circumstances and events, if god created everything form the Big Bang to you being born. you need to explain the logical argument behind it, not just assert "no". how could I choose or live in a choice filled sandbox. god created everything and knows what ill do. unless you are suggesting I can do things god doesnt know. and he didnt create everything?

2. this doesnt make any sense. you are using second guess wrong. using it the exact opposite of its meaning. not a big deal but just saying.i dont have to multiply knowing somone by infinity. according to chrsitian belief he knows everything.

3. you are now contradicting #1. you dont live in a sandbox of choice. your fate and every action was laid out and known before you made it. he can see past, present and future as he is "outside" of time. he knew from the beginning of the universe itself, you would make a right turn on bank st on Monday august 8th so you didnt, that other guy would rob the bank, who would win every election ect. you are now contradicting yourself.

4. as Hitchens said "of course theres free will, I have no choice but to have it". it points the difficulty in understanding free will and determinism even in a world without god. did every chemical reaction in history from the Big Bang to now lead me to this very moment of me typing this? did I have any choice?

those arent the only two options. or god doesnt exist being a third. and "evil" just like "sin" is a social construct and cultural norm. all social animals have "morals", or at least "rrotomorals". the wolf pack wouldn't last long if one wolf stole all the others wolfs food and killed them when they slept. the social animals would die out. there a perfectly good explanation. god is not required for the hypothesis

5. so you say. demonstrate this? im a moral animal who can make moral assessments. and murdering millions of kids and babies is wrong. you can define him as this. now demonstrate it. or else its just an assertion.

6. another assertion without evidence. what's perfect about his will? this is circular. gods will is perfect because gods perfect and so his will is perfect. demonstrate it. demonstrate what's perfect.

no need for me to rebut this, I already did multiple times.

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Did you freely write this rebuttal Leodicaprio ?

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I dont know. and my claim is nor do you. thats the problem with determinism and the difference between us. I dont claim to have all the answers. but you do claim to know things you cant demonstrate.. I am simply applying the beliefs Christians claim and exposing their fallacies and issues when you claim we have agency when an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenvllent god outside time created everything and knows past future and present. it makes no logical sense.

I already explained how even without god, determinism poses a problem. how do I demonstrate I freely chose to write this? because I believe so? vs from the beginning and Big Bang, every atom coming together to form our sun and planet, every asteroid that hit us and covered our planet with water. every cell division that eventually led to homosapiens and our modern society and and me typing this on Monday august 8th at 12:16am?

how do I distinguish between these two?

yet its not critical to our discussion. which you cant seem to answer. you sure made some large claims, but didnt provide any convincing evidence or arguement for. you simply asserted them. which I can do too.

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Hi Leodicaprio, and thanks for your honest reply, I do appreciate your conflict - really I do!

Okay, here's alittle bit about me, not because I'm some egomaniac, but because it may help frame my answers better.

Firstly, I'm not a 'Christian' - I'm a follower of Jesus, ...now that may sound contradictory, but not at all. 'Christianity,' has for the most part, done more harm than good, it's entrenched in dogma, infighting & hypocrisy.
When Jesus walked the earth, He went after the 'religious' people of the day for such things. Jesus doesn't care about 'religion' - but He does care about relationship, ...so to reiterate, I'm not a 'Christian.'

Secondly, I was once where you are in relation to 'free-will' - so much so, that it almost led me to suicide, as everything felt so meaningless, ...and then one day 'my eyes were opened' - I was shown that the very 'dark things' that had raged through my life, were in-fact, spiritual, & more directly, ...demonic.

It didn't take away the pain, and in-fact 'things' got much worse, as my knowledge of these disembodied spirits, seemed to lead to more extreme attacks, which I still suffer from today.

What I was shown in regards to 'free will,' was that the 'enemy' would use a simple lie, that 'free will' didn't exist, which in-turn he knew would fill me with hopelessness, with the intention of getting me to kill myself. The lie also would breed apathy, because, again the enemy knew my nature, and because I am 'highly sensitive/empathic' - he knew I would become trapped by the thought of nothing i did was under my control.

Now you are 'free' to dismiss what I've just told you of course, but I will leave it with you.
I do want to write another comment for you, which will address 'free will' directly, but I will leave it here for now.

All the best Leodicaprio

God Bless xxx

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Im a Christian but I dont believe people can freely choose God. There are several passages in scripture that make it clear, God chooses who he saves/has mercy on.

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which I have heard some version by Calvanists before. which then makes it pointless, and who cares. hes already selected who goes to heaven and hell. why even try? you are already destined for one of the other. doesnt sound like a loving god. he therefore created you knowing he was going to let you go to hell.

sounds pretty contradictory and almost like it makes no sense at all.... almost like its.... man made................

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"Why even try?"
Sharing the gospel you mean?
Because God uses humans as means to reach his elect. He doesnt just draw names out of a hat. There are people right now who will be saved who havent been saved yet but we dont know who they are so we keep sharing the gospel in the hope that one of his elect is brought to repentance and gets saved.

The idea that God is unfair because he predestines the damned to hell is misleading. We all deserve hell since we all sin so its not relevant that God created us to end up sending us there since the decisions we make is why we end up there. God knowing your decisions / having foreknowledge of them does not mean, you arent the one making them.

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he knows the future yes? he created everything yes? as you said "I dont believe people can freely choose God. There are several passages in scripture that make it clear, God chooses who he saves/has mercy on."

that means you have no agency. and dont decide. there cant possibly be people who haven't been saved yet and will do stuff to be saved by your own description. you are now contradicting yourself.

I deserve hell? because I stole something as an 8 year old? yet have lived a positive good life mostly since? wow gods a scumbag.

but then what do you expect from a character who genocided millions of kids and babies to prove a point. ohh and condoned slavery

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"that means you have no agency. and dont decide."

You don´t have agency in being able to choose heaven. You have agency to sin and choose which sins you engage in, do good deeds (which dont count as good in God´s eyes since they are tainted by your sins), eat your favourite type of pizza but no, you can´t choose God unless God chooses you.

"there cant possibly be people who haven't been saved yet and will do stuff to be saved by your own description. you are now contradicting yourself."

No, I am not. Yes, there are plenty of unsaved people who have yet to be saved, God doesn´t just save everyone at once. I never claimed people could "do stuff" to get saved. It all comes down to WHEN GOD CHOOSES THEM. When someone is brought to repentance, they are brought by God, through hearing the gospel/being convicted of sin. They can´t do it themselves because they are blinded by their own love for darkness and sin, and they need to be regenerated by God to even seek him.

"I deserve hell? because I stole something as an 8 year old? yet have lived a positive good life mostly since? wow gods a scumbag."

"Positive good life mostly". What does that even mean? lol. Are you claiming that the only ever thing you did wrong was steal as an 8 year old? That sounds like a lie, since afterwards you said mostly good. So you are an admitted liar. Anything else you want to confess? Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust you commit adultery with her in your heart, have you ever watched porn? If so, Jesus says you are an adulterer. Have you ever hated someone? Jesus said if you hate someone you commit murder in your heart. So Jesus considers you a lying, adulterous murderer. Still think you are a good person who doesnt deserve hell?

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soo somone could be perfect or close to it, and not get into heaven. while somone god chose, could sin more, and get into heaven.

so if god chose hitler hes going to heaven. but if he didnt choose Gandhi he isnt? lol sooo moral. what a god!

if god knows everything they will do. he knows "ohh they will "be saved January 23rd 2031". which god is outside time so thats meaningless. he already knows they are/will be saved. because hes all powerful and outside time. again utter nonsense/

lol yes because I lusted at someone, I dont deserve eternal torment in the lake of fire. even our own flawed man made justice system isnt that dumb.

oh did you hate your neighbour? send billy to prison to be tortured!! see how nonsense that is?

you've given up all logic, all rationality and all normal humanity and empathy. to make excuses for one of the most nonsensical malicious systems. but hey it lets you think you are better than others :) "im saved so I know best, I can feel god!". who needs logic and rationality when you can just have an unproven sense of superiority.

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"who needs logic and rationality when you can just have an unproven sense of superiority."

What superiority? I don´t think Im better than you. I was probably worse. And nothing I even did contributed to my salvation. I have no idea why God chose to save me, when I was wicked and depraved, I only know that I was blinded by my love for sin and God chose to have mercy on me and free me from bondage to sin and that I 100% deserved hell and being saved from what I deserved had nothing to do with me.

"soo somone could be perfect or close to it, and not get into heaven. while somone god chose, could sin more, and get into heaven.

so if god chose hitler hes going to heaven. but if he didnt choose Gandhi he isnt? lol sooo moral. what a god!"

Well, scripture says no one is perfect and all have fallen short. Romans 3:23, 3:10, and there are varying degrees of punishment in hell but all will get what they deserve. So the idea of a close to perfect person is basically non-existent apart from Jesus (who was/is perfect). Yes God, could have chosen Hitler but didn´t but being that as it may, you can rest assured that the vast majority of sinners, (most people like Hitler) will be going to hell according to scripture. I find it interesting you bring up this point, since most people who find God to be a moral monster, find the idea of God sending most people to hell as unjust, while a God who sends every person in existence to heaven, is a good God. Most people would agree that sending Hitler to hell would be just as you yourself insinuated. Im assuming based on what you have said previously though that you would find it "more just" if God sent everyone to heaven including Hitler? I don´t think you can support both positions without contradicting yourself so Im curious as to what your take is here.

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"What superiority?"

two seconds later

"I have no idea why God chose to save me, when I was wicked and depraved, I only know that I was blinded by my love for sin and God chose to have mercy on me and free me from bondage to sin and that I 100% deserved hell and being saved from what I deserved had nothing to do with me."

and now you re a special god lamb destined for heaven. and there it is lol


" Yes God, could have chosen Hitler but didn´t but being that as it may, you can rest assured that the vast majority of sinners, (most people like Hitler) will be going to hell according to scripture."

you dont know this one way or another. demonstrate it

"I find it interesting you bring up this point, since most people who find God to be a moral monster, find the idea of God sending most people to hell as unjust, while a God who sends every person in existence to heaven, is a good God."

yes eternal damnation for something I never did according to your scripture, and being how god created me, is unjust and sickening. imagine you are a scientist, a biologist and geneticist. you created a breed of dog that hopped around. and you decide "well im going to brutally torture any dog that hops around". and low and behold, you create dogs for that very purpose. then say "look how moral I am! I am a biologist (god)! I gave you existence, but I decided that hopping is a sin. and you DESERVE to be tortured.

how disgusting is that?


"Im assuming based on what you have said previously though that you would find it "more just" if God sent everyone to heaven including Hitler? I don´t think you can support both positions without contradicting yourself so Im curious as to what your take is here."

how you got that form anything I said is hilarious. wow it must be the religion. turning your logical faculties off because I said nothing like that and in fact the opposite.

either way. you cant demonstrate anything you said. I may as well say "I live by the laws of the pink leprechaun!"

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"you dont know this one way or another. demonstrate it"

Because scripture says it. Matthew 7:13

The dog analogy doesnt work because a dog cant know "hopping" is wrong or any other behaviour it engages in for that matter. Humans know sinning is wrong because our consciences condemn us. Romans 1:32. Romans 2:14-15.

"how you got that form anything I said is hilarious. wow it must be the religion. turning your logical faculties off because I said nothing like that and in fact the opposite."

Well Im curious to know what your actual position is because, if you believe God is immoral for allowing Hitler to repent and get saved while Gandhi could be sent to hell, (which is what your point was) then you must believe sending Hitler to hell is just.

If sending Hitler to hell is just, then a God who sent everyone, including Hitler, to heaven would be unjust, wouldn´t he? So can I assume you think "universalism"(everyone goes to heaven) as being immoral?

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yes and the book of the pink leprechaun says otherwise. now demonstrate why yours is true and mine isnt.

sure a dog can, you can train a dog what is wrong and right. never seen a guilty looking dog video? social animals have proto-morality. you are wrong. but again. here is the "moral christian" justifying eternal torture lol

yes im a human and have a sense of justice. its tied to my empathy, and my understanding of justice, which is that a punishment should be proportionate to a crime. now what YOU have proposed is a good person being eternally damned. and by all accounts under your model the non chrstiain ghandi is in hell, or could be. and hitler could be in heaven.

"If sending Hitler to hell is just, then a God who sent everyone, including Hitler, to heaven would be unjust, wouldn´t he? So can I assume you think "universalism"(everyone goes to heaven) as being immoral?"

hell is immoral either way. you are giving infinite punishment for finite crimes

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"yes and the book of the pink leprechaun says otherwise. now demonstrate why yours is true and mine isnt."

Why are you moving the goalposts? The argument was about whether God was a moral monster from scripture, not about me having to prove his existence to you. I already told you, only God can give you faith, I cannot "convince" you.

"sure a dog can, you can train a dog what is wrong and right. never seen a guilty looking dog video? social animals have proto-morality. you are wrong. but again. here is the "moral christian" justifying eternal torture lol"

Do we send dogs to prison for incest? We must change that I guess if dogs have consciences. Give me a break.

"and hitler could be in heaven."

Hitler isnt in heaven, because he committed suicide and died in his sins. The only reason I mentioned it as a "hypothetical possibility" is because I was repeating your example which you found morally objectionable.

"hell is immoral either way. you are giving infinite punishment for finite crimes"

Finite crimes against an infinitely Holy God require infinite punishment.

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because you are making claims you cant demonstrate?

and faith is utterly useless.

"Do we send dogs to prison for incest? We must change that I guess if dogs have consciences. Give me a break."

you arent getting the simple analogy on purpose because you know it disproves your nonsense.. the point is punishing something for being created to do something. ie every human sinning.

Hitler isnt in heaven, because he committed suicide and died in his sins. The only reason I mentioned it as a "hypothetical possibility" is because I was repeating your example which you found morally objectionable.

YOU DONT KNOW THAT. Christians love to claim what they cant show. suicide was only decided on LATER as being a sin, because too many people were killing themselves to "get to heaven"

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/suicide-in-the-bible

its never mentioned directly

"Finite crimes against an infinitely Holy God require infinite punishment."

an indefinite holy god who created you to do exactly those sins. knowing everything you'd do. he created little billy knowing every single sin you would do. he created the universe, your parents, your grandparents ect. he made you a sinner by definition. then now chastises and says "how dare you sin! what an affront!"

as Christopher hitches said (ill paraphrase)" what is the absurdity that you have a god who creates you dirty and sinful, then orders you to be clean, then when you cannot meat this unattainable standard, claims you deserve punishment for it"

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Ah yes, look who ran away to save face here. LOL

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you did??? since the last response is by me?? are you this dumb. Another self own from our resident dull wit.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

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Ah no actually it isn´t, see below.

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yes you replied twice at the same time. I replied to one of yours with a long response which YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO. didnt run away spazo. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL hahahahahahahha kee going please. dont stop commenting. im loving you destroy yourself and look like a complete idiot.

I didnt repsond to your other comment because it was borderline retarded.

1. we know social animals have proto morals. thats a fact.

2. "the bible" wasnt written 2000 years ago. you dont know what the fuck you are talking about

this is that borderline retarded shit I didnt bother to respond to. because it was so dumb

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"I didnt repsond to your other comment because it was borderline retarded."

Or you didnt reply because your hypocrisy was pointed out by being gullible enough to believe animals have morals because they "look guilty in videos".

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noooo I know social animals have morals... tis well documented idiot. LOOLL again notice how you didnt respond to my long response.

https://www.livescience.com/24802-animals-have-morals-book.html


KEEP GOING. dont stop. this is getting more and more embarrassing for you dull wit.

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"One of the most obvious examples — the guilty look of a dog that has just eaten a forbidden food — may not be true remorse, but simply the dog responding appropriately to its owner's disappointment, according to a study published in the journal Behavioural Processes in 2009."

From the very same link you provided.

Embarrassing indeed. lol

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1. it says may, its not certain
2. it changes nothing. animals have simplistic morals.


Soo social animals dont have morals????

wow breaking scientific news here. you can get your Nobel prize any day

so again. I responded to your larger reply. I do what I want and dont have to respond to everything.

point is, YOU ran like a bitch, not me. little bitch

"Ah yes, look who ran away to save face here. LOL"


reread our exchange. as usual you are trying to change the subject cause I demolished you.

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Ah yes the childish name calling again. I thought you were against "8 yo replies". rofl

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awww yes. changing the subject again because I exposed your stupidity. keep going. its soo easy to show what a complete idiot you are. so again

"Ah yes, look who ran away to save face here. LOL"

how fucking embarrassing

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Yeah man, you´re an intellectual giant, I feel so owned. rofl.

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"Ah yes, look who ran away to save face here. LOL"

you do it yourself clown :) keep going. I cant wait for the next slip up for you to make yourself look like an utter moron.

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"sure a dog can, you can train a dog what is wrong and right. never seen a guilty looking dog video?

So a dog "looking guilty" in a video is proof enough for you that dogs have morality/consciences equivalent to humans but believing a Bible written over 2000 years, that´s just being gullible. lol

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Just another example of Jesus being a moron. If I ever looked at a homeless person and wanted to help them, does that mean I gave them a house and a job in my heart? If I love my dog, do I marry them in my heart? If I ever told the truth, does that make me a truther? If someone leaves their glasses in the cafeteria and I bring it to them at the office, am I a life saver? This is the kind of retarded logic you are engaged in. Don't get me started on the self mutilation and letting people beat the shit out of you.

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If people cannot 'freely choose God' - then the crucifixion is meaningless.

God is Love, and you cannot love in return if you are not free.

'Free will' is established as early as the 'Garden' - ...'you may freely eat' - here God confirms freedom, but also issues a command, 'but do not eat from the tree of good and evil.' As free creatures, A&E freely chose to disobey God, and would therefore suffer the consequences.

If there is no free will, then God is the author of evil, ...& that's the deception, from the 'father of lies.'

You are free.

God Bless xxx

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The crucifixion is not "meaningless" since the cross atones for the sins of the elect.

Adam and Eve had total free will. Not so after the fall. Indeed scripture says we became slaves to sin and our hearts are desperately wicked and that none of us seek God. In our fallen state we are unpleasing to God, so curious to know, how we can freely seek God without being regenerated by him first and when scripture says none of us seek him. Indeed, Jesus said no one can come to him without being drawn by the Father. That doesn´t sound like humans can freely choose God to me.

God bless.

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Any Marxist atheist would know it was some ancient philosopher that said God knows everything.
Why would God know the future? He creates the future! He could strike down the all Marxists tomorrow.

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what are you talking about.....

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One thing I've always wondered is that if a god is said to be "omniscient, omnipresent and and omnipotent" then how could such a being ever have an original thought? Make a decision? Knowing all things past and future into eternity would negate any moment of discovery on the part of such a god.

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yep. how could he have "learned" and made mistakes. why make a new covenenant, get angry ect. how did the vengeful, angry Old Testament god become the "Jesus meek and mild" god

why did he need to sacrifice himself, to himself, to create a loophole for a rule he created.

of course you will get some cop out of "your limited brain cant comprehend how vast and complex god is blah blah blah"

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Okay, my final post here Leodicaprio...

Analogy...

Now I don't know your personal circumstance, so please take no offence, this is simply an analogy to get my point across, okay?

So, let's assume Leodicaprio, that you recently got married to your childhood sweetheart. You had been married for around 6 months, when one night an intruder breaks into your house & kills your beloved wife, leaving you for dead. Two weeks later, the killer is captured, and the trial for murder goes to court. All the evidence is laid out, fingerprints, DNA samples, camera footage, it's an open and shut case, when suddenly the killer enters a plea of 'innocence' based upon he has no 'free will' - and is merely a 'moist robot' - pre-programmed, with no autonomy - "I was just dancing to my DNA your Honor!"

The court adjourns, and returns with a unanimous verdict of not guilty!

NOW, by your world view Leodicaprio, you would of course have to 'accept' this verdict, and see the whole experience as a mere inconvenience to your day, BUT... we both know you would be outraged by the injustice.

The belief in no 'free will' invariably brakes down when tragedy hits our lives, whether it be a drunk driver, a fraudster, or even a killer, ..at that point you want justice, but no 'free will' means there is no such thing as 'justice.'

So, I will leave it here.

I suspect Leodicaprio, that perhaps you don't really want to entertain the notion of 'free will,' no matter what is presented before you, and you are of course, free to do that.

God Bless xxx

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the point of whether I believe it or not, want it to be so or not, want justice or not, has no bearing on whether there is free will or determinism. it sucks, its an uncomfortable feeling not knowing. whether I like it or not means nothing. its far more comfortable to beilieve for example in heaven where you see your loved ones vs the absolute nothing after death. "it gives me fuzzy nice feelings" has no bearing on the truth of a claim.

I contend I dont know if its determinism or free will. but neither do you

correct or not? about how you feel about something has no bearing on the truth of a claim>

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> suddenly the killer enters a plea of 'innocence' based upon he has no 'free will' - and is merely a 'moist robot' - pre-programmed, with no autonomy - "I was just dancing to my DNA your Honor!"

That's dumb because our system is a precedence based system and there is no precedent for finding someone not guilty because of lack of free will.

But however you decide to structure an argument based on free will or the lack of it - it has nothing to do with reality, these are merely philosophical arguments to annoy people.

There would be no free will is some person or group had access to all the necessary data that goes into someone's behavioral choices, but that level of information prohibits being able to predict most human behavior, and even if some percentage of behaviors might be able to be predicted, the confidence in any one prediction would be too low to take seriously.

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> if god knows past future and present, ...
> how do you have any free will?

Just because God might exist, and might know the past, present and future does not mean that any of us do, so from our perspective, we have free will.

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from our perspective doesnt mean anything however. from our perspective before it was discovered, we thought from our perspective the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was not moving.

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> from our perspective doesnt mean anything

You make a lot of blustery statements ... trying stating some actual facts or arguments.

Your astronomical example proves my point ... when we do not have information on a given subject people's perspective diverges from facts and logic, and their beliefs will be emotional and unpredictable ... or what we call "free will".

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lol its not a blustery statement at all. its a fact. as my examples showed the flaws in basing something off "from our perspective"


Your astronomical example proves my point ... when we do not have information on a given subject people's perspective diverges from facts and logic, and their beliefs will be emotional and unpredictable ... or what we call "free will".

No..... no it doesnt at all. you are trying to connect two totally unconnected things. its as if you said "I turned right so of course the world is a sphere". those two things are non connected. your assertion fails in both the god model and non god model.

the issue is how do you know I wasnt predetermined to act this way no matter what. that from the time the very first atom exploded out of the Big Bang, that every single subsequent event played out to lead me to this even and this same logical or emotional decision. even if we "reran" this universe infinite times.

How did I make this decision freely, if I was going to make it this way in the end? everything that took place in the universe, and specifically in my life, led me to type exactly this no matter what. I never had a choice to make the decision of what id type, because even though my brain is a cognitive thinking organ, I was going to write these exact words no matter what and nothing else.

its truly a conundrum because it would look identical to a "free will" universe. we cant know which is which that we live in. since we cant roll back the tape and see if it could have played out different.

this is even without addressing the determinist issue god brings into it. since he created us knowing exactly what we would do. so how could we have free will if he knew billions of years before I was even born exactly the path my life would take?

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> I was going to write these exact words no matter what and nothing else.

Not in the way you imagine. Read some stuff on the neuroscience of framing and brain networks. A lot of stuff is just random, but what it means to different people is also mostly random. You never know what is unconscious, since it is by definition unconscious. So, if you walk into a room with a picture staring at you you are programmed to be more honest. Or if you have a network triggered your word choices and modeling choices will be influenced by whatever that network means to you at that time.

Why do you assume God knew the implication of everything he set in motion? You know nothing about God, including whether it even exists or not, or if so how to detect it, and how to study it, So you replace that lack of knowledge with 3 year old constructs.

Finally, what good does it do you to make this argument? If you want to believe it, why? What do you gain from it? Just being a smartass on Moviechat? How does it advance your's or anyone else's understanding of God or the Universe?

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no actually not in the way YOU imagined. your re dumbing this argument down to one area, neuroscience. when it encompasses literally the origin of the universe and all physical and temporal events that have since happened.

esp when you reference a field of science not extremely currently well understood and that we have to make a lot of progress on. declaring its for sure random. you dont know that. nor do sciences as of now. as ill elude to later (I came and edited this part after) your Nobel prize will be awaiting you since you "know" something no scientist I know has ever claimed with absolute certainty

if you have a network triggered your word choices and modeling choices will be influenced by whatever that network means to you at that time.


yes and the point is that in determinism those triggers were always going to be same from the time the Big Bang happened. Everything was set in motion to do exactly as it has played out. all the atoms were going to expand where they did.. all the galaxies and planets were going to form where they did made of the same atoms. every asteroid that hit earth was going to hit. every atom you were made up of you were. and every single event in your life played out the same. the fact you are an intelligent agent means nothing.Meaning if we had the capability, no matter how many times you "ran the tape back", you would still be hear typing these very same words. unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is absolute randomness. well ill drive you and we we get your Nobel peace prize tomorrow. then otherwise you cant say for sure its not just the appearance of randomness.

Why do you assume God knew the implication of everything he set in motion?


im basing this off christian theology. its in their definition of god. im not going to argue a straw man and address something chrsitains dont say

You know nothing about God


all I can go with is what christians claim to "know" about him and address that

or if so how to detect it, and how to study it, So you replace that lack of knowledge with 3 year old constructs.

wrong again bob. you are the most unnecessarily aggressive person on here lol. you take anyone with a different opinion that is backed up by logic, as a personal affront. you should probably get help. I got three messages from other left wingers on here after your other little tantrum over the nazi post basically saying you are mentally unstable.

Finally, what good does it do you to make this argument?


ecuase I like debating... I want to see what they believe and if they can logically support their assertions. didn't know you were the judge of MCs reasons for discussing.

If you want to believe it, why? What do you gain from it? Just being a smartass on Moviechat? How does it advance your's or anyone else's understanding of God or the Universe?


I can at least try and get christians to defend their position. you've never asked a question on movie chat to conservatives that you disagreed with? to get them to defend their beliefs??


LOL you look freaking ridiculous here man

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It's "etc.". Learn literacy, you buffoon.

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more deep insight from the clown who thought a joke was true. have your parents had you tested?

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More illiteracy from a confirmed liar who is fooling no one.

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you re so dumb man its why I bring it up every time. so everyone knows what a retard you are :) it makes me happy please keep doing it. its sooo embarrassing your own fellow conservatives won't defend you on it. they know its dumb as fuck hahahah

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